The Odyssey - || Strategy And Discussion ||

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The Odyssey - || Strategy and Discussion ||
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By eeternal 2021-06-22 18:23:36
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for Arebati v15, would you opt for RUN or PLD? seems Glacial Tomb will be painful for PLD, any input is appreciated.
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By SimonSes 2021-06-22 18:35:53
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We had PLD tanking it at V15 with aura up from 96% to the end (we couldn't proc blue), so PLD can definitely handle that easily.
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By Asura.Bippin 2021-06-22 18:38:11
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My group also normally use PLD, aegis and sakpata work really well.
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By eeternal 2021-06-22 18:51:17
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Thank you
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-06-22 20:30:22
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eeternal said: »
for Arebati v15, would you opt for RUN or PLD? seems Glacial Tomb will be painful for PLD, any input is appreciated.

We have had both tank it just fine, RUN as early as last night. Once he uses Glassy Nova, put on Shell and ride Ignis(your WHM and BRD can rebuff you but Shell and ice Carol is the priority). You never want to get caught in the wrong set during Glacial Tomb (because if he follows up with Nova or Roar for aura, you might be done), so I just encourage locking your tanking set once you get enough hate. Your DDs should have Dirge, so Flash on timer occasionally without your enmity swaps is probably fine.
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By Asura.Syto 2021-06-23 11:31:35
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Also, with RUN on Arebati V15 you don’t have your own life saving Spamable Cures other than Vivacious Pulse (which is locked behind a 1 minute timer) like PLD does when you get Full Dispelled, so you have to rely more on your WHM and also save your OFA for that moment you don’t have buffs until you get them back up... An example of an extremely bad scenario is when you get full dispelled and Blue Proc doesn’t happen in time and multiple Fetters are sprayed all over you, you can die very quickly to the multiple pulses from fetters if OFA isn’t up and WHM is slow to respond and Rebuff...

RUN is very good on this fight with its amazingly high natural and gear based MEVA and Nyame’s high MEVA only makes it better, it just has a few less luxuries like a spammable Cure when you get Full Dispelled.. So your WHM has to be on watch for when that happens.. This fight like other V15s Flexes your WHM a lot..

Also, don’t forget your BRD can quickly reapply a Ice Carol to help rebuff when Full Dispel happens..
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By Vaerix 2021-06-24 14:47:05
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On another topic entirely, anyone have tips/tricks for segment farming? A one that has been helpful to my group has been silencing dahaks to prevent nullsong tp move. When I was dual boxing brd and cor double teaming any mob usually guarantees a kill before a tp move as long as you weaponskill together,

Has anyone figured out a way to deal with clots (other than mandatory forever skip)?

Has anyone tested out the other hybrid weapon skills with high aug nyame like hot shot? Messing around in reisen with just attack buffs I was getting some pretty nice damage (2-3x last stand) was wondering if it would be viable vs lamia or undead vs the last stand and wildfire>wildfire>darkness.

Just a few lingering questions I've had for a while.
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By Rive016 2021-06-24 17:24:24
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if you HAVE to fight a clot have your WHM use AOE blink as Fluid Toss is absorbed by shadows. Also Ive skipped lot of the 1st floor and kill more of the normal mobs on the 4th floor for higher RP it adds up ;p
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By Felgarr 2021-06-24 21:47:52
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When segment farming, I personally would not engage anything that does any kind of dispelling move (Wyverns, Dahak, etc). I also would avoid mobs that Sleep/Stun/Terror for long periods of time. Our group also doesn't pop NMs like Adamantoise or Hydra because of the time-sinks in those fights as well.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-06-24 22:06:39
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Vaerix said: »
On another topic entirely, anyone have tips/tricks for segment farming?

Banishga spam the undead is nice for upping the resisted damage.

Vaerix said: »
Has anyone figured out a way to deal with clots (other than mandatory forever skip)?

Ninjas can kill Clots without any danger, since all of their moves can be blocked by shadows. Hybrid WS seems to work on them, so a quick 2-3 step would make short work of them. You probably won't be running with 2-3 ninjas in your seg farming group though, so you would probably skip them.
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By Asura.Vindus 2021-06-24 22:32:58
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Felgarr said: »
When segment farming, I personally would not engage anything that does any kind of dispelling move (Wyverns, Dahak, etc). I also would avoid mobs that Sleep/Stun/Terror for long periods of time. Our group also doesn't pop NMs like Adamantoise or Hydra because of the time-sinks in those fights as well.
I would recommend this to anyone who is newer or PUGing. Once you have your wits about you, it's a bit surprising what you can get away with. Annoying/dangerous tp moves (dispels and things like scorpion AoE) can be completely avoided. The key is not to let them be under 25% hp ever and kill them quickly. Oneshotting is not feasible except maybe floor one, and even then not super reliable. This means it's best to be a DD with a solid WS that SCs with itself.

On SAM this usually looks like a low tp fudo (not enough to push it sub 25) followed by a stronger fudo finisher (titrated to remaining hp and floor). I've mopped up entire dahak/scorp/wyvren groups with no TP moves going off while the rest of the group fought less dangerous monsters. Only really gets messy if you don't sleep them (and they get tp from hitting the tank). Other DDs like savage CORs will be eating a ton of tp moves throughout the zone by nature of having a hard hitting WS (that puts the mob at low hp before killing it) so they should keep that in mind.
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By Felgarr 2021-06-24 22:45:21
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Asura.Vindus said: »
Felgarr said: »
When segment farming, I personally would not engage anything that does any kind of dispelling move (Wyverns, Dahak, etc). I also would avoid mobs that Sleep/Stun/Terror for long periods of time. Our group also doesn't pop NMs like Adamantoise or Hydra because of the time-sinks in those fights as well.
I would recommend this to anyone who is newer or PUGing. Once you have your wits about you, it's a bit surprising what you can get away with. Annoying/dangerous tp moves (dispels and things like scorpion AoE) can be completely avoided. The key is not to let them be under 25% hp ever and kill them quickly. Oneshotting is not feasible except maybe floor one, and even then not super reliable. This means it's best to be a DD with a solid WS that SCs with itself.

On SAM this usually looks like a low tp fudo (not enough to push it sub 25) followed by a stronger fudo finisher (titrated to remaining hp and floor). I've mopped up entire dahak/scorp/wyvren groups with no TP moves going off while the rest of the group fought less dangerous monsters. Only really gets messy if you don't sleep them (and they get tp from hitting the tank). Other DDs like savage CORs will be eating a ton of tp moves throughout the zone by nature of having a hard hitting WS (that puts the mob at low hp before killing it) so they should keep that in mind.

Depends on what you're after: consistent segments or maximum segments per run. Enough failures, wipes, dispels etc can wipe out cumulative gains. Risk vs. reward over a single run, vs total segmebts farmed over the course of a month.
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By Vaerix 2021-06-24 23:15:57
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Forgot to mention my current thing that I like doing which helps segment runs, on floor 1 we always check downstairs for halo/NM etc, I check as the tank by myself the rest of the group begins working on the first group. If the group is decent and no halo or NM I usually pull the downstairs group to the first group where they're working, let's that normally dead time actually be worth a few segments rather than wasting it. With a good stoneskin, phalanx, and cocoon I normally take no damage until I'm at the group (run/blu) sometimes 1-2 mobs will decide to disengage but they're always within flash distance when I stop so no big.
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By Shiva.Thorny 2021-06-25 06:47:55
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Felgarr said: »
Depends on what you're after: consistent segments or maximum segments per run. Enough failures, wipes, dispels etc can wipe out cumulative gains. Risk vs. reward over a single run, vs total segmebts farmed over the course of a month.

Also depends on your group, because there doesn't have to be risk if you understand the mechanics of TP gain and apply a strategy like Vindus suggested to prevent TP moves happening entirely.
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-06-25 06:58:43
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Even strategies like those can be stymied by things like 5% misses or the tank using a strong JA right when you go to WS and it running out of range, and losing a SV song or more can affect the run entirely.
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By Shiva.Thorny 2021-06-25 07:20:25
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Technically true, I shouldn't have spoken in absolutes, but the risk can be brought to such a small amount that it makes skipping certain families over TP moves seem silly.
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By Asura.Syto 2021-06-25 09:51:22
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The only group we skip when we don’t have the right people with us is the bhoots and even that is rare as usually we take them on as well with the right people... For a highly experienced group 1-2 shotting every mob within a group is possible and practical... If it’s taking 3-4+ WS to kill then you will run into issues..

It’s all about prep and power.. your WHM is also your group’s “bicep” .. PLD helps with cures and you can take on any group in less than 2 minutes..

With perfectly buffed DPS, any group will go down without any deaths or dispels happening.. Fluid Spread just requires certain defensive buffs but it’s also not that bad of a problem if you properly prepare and kill with 1-2 WS at most..

This is how you reach 10-13k points.. but if you are only aiming for 5-7k then avoid anything you have issues with..

Also, all of the above is possible only if your BRD and COR are DPSing aggressively.. if you have a poorly performing COR or BRD or one of those “buff only BRDs” that don’t believe in DPSing by their own weird virtues, then scrap any dreams of getting to above 5-7k Segs..

Just to give you an idea on Parse... COR and BRD was within 1-4 % of each other and COR was under the top DPS WAR by 4-6% parse... this is how aggressive the DPS spread should be and look like..
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By Vaerix 2021-06-25 10:35:22
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Asura.Syto said: »
The only group we skip when we don’t have the right people with us is the bhoots and even that is rare as usually we take them on as well with the right people... For a highly experienced group 1-2 shotting every mob within a group is possible and practical... If it’s taking 3-4+ WS to kill then you will run into issues..

It’s all about prep and power.. your WHM is also your group’s “bicep” .. PLD helps with cures and you can take on any group in less than 2 minutes..

With perfectly buffed DPS, any group will go down without any deaths or dispels happening.. Fluid Spread just requires certain defensive buffs but it’s also not that bad of a problem if you properly prepare and kill with 1-2 WS at most..

This is how you reach 10-13k points.. but if you are only aiming for 5-7k then avoid anything you have issues with..

Also, all of the above is possible only if your BRD and COR are DPSing aggressively.. if you have a poorly performing COR or BRD or one of those “buff only BRDs” that don’t believe in DPSing by their own weird virtues, then scrap any dreams of getting to above 5-7k Segs..

Just to give you an idea on Parse... COR and BRD was within 1-4 % of each other and COR was under the top DPS WAR by 1-2% parse... this is how aggressive the DPS spread should be and look like..

We don't run parse for our segment runs but I completely understand what you mean by this. When I was dual boxing cor and brd I was dosing on both and when I was having issues getting on target with both we:d hit between 8 and 9k closer to 8. Since i moved to rune the attention I have or rather the ability I have to multibox the brd has diminished greatly and we've slid back pretty far, I don't think we've broken 9k many times (if at all). Every player really needs to be doing as much as possible.
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By Asura.Syto 2021-06-25 10:47:01
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Vaerix said: »
Asura.Syto said: »
The only group we skip when we don’t have the right people with us is the bhoots and even that is rare as usually we take them on as well with the right people... For a highly experienced group 1-2 shotting every mob within a group is possible and practical... If it’s taking 3-4+ WS to kill then you will run into issues..

It’s all about prep and power.. your WHM is also your group’s “bicep” .. PLD helps with cures and you can take on any group in less than 2 minutes..

With perfectly buffed DPS, any group will go down without any deaths or dispels happening.. Fluid Spread just requires certain defensive buffs but it’s also not that bad of a problem if you properly prepare and kill with 1-2 WS at most..

This is how you reach 10-13k points.. but if you are only aiming for 5-7k then avoid anything you have issues with..

Also, all of the above is possible only if your BRD and COR are DPSing aggressively.. if you have a poorly performing COR or BRD or one of those “buff only BRDs” that don’t believe in DPSing by their own weird virtues, then scrap any dreams of getting to above 5-7k Segs..

Just to give you an idea on Parse... COR and BRD was within 1-4 % of each other and COR was under the top DPS WAR by 4-6% parse... this is how aggressive the DPS spread should be and look like..

We don't run parse for our segment runs but I completely understand what you mean by this. When I was dual boxing cor and brd I was dosing on both and when I was having issues getting on target with both we:d hit between 8 and 9k closer to 8. Since i moved to rune the attention I have or rather the ability I have to multibox the brd has diminished greatly and we've slid back pretty far, I don't think we've broken 9k many times (if at all). Every player really needs to be doing as much as possible.

Parsing is an excellent diagnostic utility for you to *** your “gaps of DPS” between your 4 DDs (x2 Heavy and BRD, COR)..

The more you focus on closing those DPS gaps the more points you will get and ascend even beyond 9k+ Segs...
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-06-25 11:32:31
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Not necessarily. Simon explained it perfectly in another thread. Virtual DPS (Aka Overkill with WS) leads to misleading numbers, which doesn't necessarily translate to kill speed, but viewing a parse would make you believe that particular DD had more of a meaningful impact than they really did.

When i play Ninja occasionally, I can bust out nice numbers, but I'm actually parsing way behind the Drk in my group because so much of the damage is overkill, because NIN has terrible white damage comparably. This means one WS might not one shot, but the second one can Overkill so much but disrupts the purpose of the parse. Alternatively, I can play warrior and buff everybody, and have much more a meaningful impact, despite the parse not reflecting that as much.

The parse can be a tool, but the raw numbers are basically irrelevant in something like Odyssey segment farms, for a lot of reasons. It helps to see the relative position everyone should place (top DD > COR > BRD), but the numbers aren't that valuable unless they are glaringly obvious (like two similar DDs parsing far apart from each other instead of like ~5%).
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By Asura.Syto 2021-06-25 12:09:33
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Not necessarily. Simon explained it perfectly in another thread. Virtual DPS (Aka Overkill with WS) leads to misleading numbers, which doesn't necessarily translate to kill speed, but viewing a parse would make you believe that particular DD had more of a meaningful impact than they really did.

When i play Ninja occasionally, I can bust out nice numbers, but I'm actually parsing way behind the Drk in my group because so much of the damage is overkill, because NIN has terrible white damage comparably. This means one WS might not one shot, but the second one can Overkill so much but disrupts the purpose of the parse. Alternatively, I can play warrior and buff everybody, and have much more a meaningful impact, despite the parse not reflecting that as much.

The parse can be a tool, but the raw numbers are basically irrelevant in something like Odyssey segment farms, for a lot of reasons. It helps to see the relative position everyone should place (top DD > COR > BRD), but the numbers aren't that valuable unless they are glaringly obvious (like two similar DDs parsing far apart from each other instead of like ~5%).

Yes I agree brother, it’s not a absolute definitive measurement, I agree and acknowledge this..

Just as you said it’s to *** large gaps beyond ~5-7% that are otherwise unknown unless you have some kind of measurement tool..

Totally agree that it’s not a definitive measurement and super precise.. that’s not what I was intending to imply.. I should of mentioned this in the post..

You can definitely use it to establish a baseline for your team and once you determine the consistent baseline parse measurements, you can make assessments.. Even though it’s not precise, it still provides valuable picture of the baselines in the DPS spread with your team..
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By SimonSes 2021-06-25 13:10:03
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Asura.Syto said: »
You can definitely use it to establish a baseline for your team and once you determine the consistent baseline parse measurements, you can make assessments.. Even though it’s not precise, it still provides valuable picture of the baselines in the DPS spread with your team..

You can parse accuracy, to check if you have enough buffs, right food etc. but if you look at damage/dps its confusing as hell.

Simple situation. Autotarget switch to mob that has 20%HP, because BRD Savage Bladed it. I have AM3 Ukonvasara. I will hit it for 15k damage melee round and kill it. I get +15k damage on parse. Now same situation but on Naegling DRG. DRG wont kill it with white damage with Naegling, so it does 60k Savage and kills it. DRG gets +60k on parse, but the kill speed was the same (or even slower, because I can move right away after melee round, DRG needs to wait for WS animation). Such situation happens at least 10-20 times per run (if not much more). Lets say it only happens 15 times. Thats 675k virtual damage. If you have 2 DD jobs they usually do around 4M damage per run (if brd and cor are dpsing too). So parse will show for example DRG doing 29% and WAR doing 25%, while kill speed was the same. On top of that WAR provided Warcry 4-5 times in a run, which boosted DPS of everyone. Looking at parse you would think taking 2nd DRG instead of WAR would result in big efficiency boost, while in practice it can be completely untrue and you can actually kill slower then.

Only thing that matters is looking at how many segments you farmed across many runs and use your knowledge (and sheets :P) for possible improvement, then test them in practice.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-06-25 13:27:46
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Parsing in events that have multiple monsters in a roaming setting is just not going to ever give you an accurate depiction of player contribution. One monster in a controlled environment is the best scenario. But only in the appropriate scenario. Like a wave 3 dynamis boss between two similar DD. Even a parse in something like Gaol bosses is misleading because there's some factors that can favor (or punish) one set of jobs over another, such as lack of support job, positional requirements (like being able to use overwhelm) weapon resistance or aura removal conditions, and self buffs that some jobs gain but others do not.

I just don't think DPS parse is going to really do any more than showcase raw numbers in a situation that is flawed because there's several parts of the event that are uncontrolled.
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By Asura.Syto 2021-06-25 14:14:52
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I see a kind of consistent correlation very clearly happening and this is over several runs..

Example 1 (Low Performance COR and BRD):

When we there was a non aggressive COR and BRD in our party the segments dropped and it shows on the parse that COR did 19% and non aggressive BRD only did 9-10% while WAR and DRG was 34-36%... keep in mind this data is consistently replicated in 10+ Runs.. Segments at most were to 6.5-7.7k range over multiple runs..

Example 2 (High Performance COR and BRD):

Then suddenly you have the same exact WAR and DRG, WHM and Tank and you introduce a new aggressive COR and BRD to the mix that is actively switching mobs/engaging aggressively with the same set and gear as previous COR and BRD, and now the spread shows consistently over the many runs that COR is doing 22-23%, BRD is up to 22-23% and WAR and DRG also 27-29%... in this group with new COR and BRD segments are up consistently able to kill more groups of mobs bringing segments to 9-12k Segments....

(Both examples accuracy is capped in all DPS and no deaths..)


Conclusions:

What can we take from this?

The parse numbers (regardless of what they mean for total precision) are in that same range consistently so it’s telling us something... Aggressiveness/performance? gear? Use of Abilities and skills? Experience in DPSing? A Snorlaxing COR and BRD? Or all of the above can impact and can be measured with parse and plays a role in measuring for diagnostics.. I’ve seen this replicate when we switch back to weaker CORs and BRDs total segments Fell...

Whenever we brought back those stronger more aggressive CORs and BRDs numbers improved and DPS spread looked the same as second high performance example..
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By Shiva.Thorny 2021-06-25 15:32:52
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parse is garbage and mostly used for poor players to pretend they're better than other poor players, especially in a place where you may not always even be in range(or receive the packets when in range) to receive other people's attack data... you can't wave away all the confounding factors with just 'accuracy is capped and no deaths' either

it's perfectly fine to state that a run with a good & aggressive BRD and COR will be much more successful than one without(that's common sense), but parses are rarely meaningful and are mostly just used to shame people or jerk yourself off
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By Asura.Syto 2021-06-25 15:42:13
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I agree..

Nothing here stated that I’m promoting it to bolster bad players... Parses are faulty at expressing precise DPS that’s something we all agree with..

It’s only when there is common sense correlations that’s when you can get a picture of what’s going on after consistent recordings...

TLDR; just use it to reveal the common sense correlations that I stated above.. that’s about it and melee accuracy

In SegFarming everyone is well within range to pick up the data using the same person as the host for the data recordings as well for consistency..
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By Asura.Doryl 2021-06-26 03:08:56
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is it possible to record a video of a 10k run please ? it will be more efficient to see some tips of placement/buffs/routes etc...
I tried to find it on youtube, but max i found is a 8k run.

Thank you
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By Aerix 2021-06-26 07:03:49
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Asura.Doryl said: »
is it possible to record a video of a 10k run please ? it will be more efficient to see some tips of placement/buffs/routes etc...
I tried to find it on youtube, but max i found is a 8k run.

Thank you

If I remember correctly, last time someone posted a video like that they (and by extension their party members) got mass reported because of their heavy addon use including stuff like JA0. Given that it's unlikely the people pulling 10k-13k segments are doing this even halfway legitimately, I doubt they would want to risk getting banned.
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By Shiva.Thorny 2021-06-26 07:16:18
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You can do it 'halfway' legitimately, but yea, given the JP nazis attitude recently it's a risky move. The video in question did use JA0, but I wouldn't put it past them to report simpler things like gearswap or UI mods if they see NA outperforming them.
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