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Oh~and youre parents must be straight...
 Midgardsormr.Frobeus
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2010-03-13 20:45:18
Ragnarok.Blindphleb said: So you are saying they are guilty of pulling a "money grab" without a lick of evidence huh? Just wanted to make sure I was reading you right. Even if they are going the legal route it doesn't mean they are doing it for "political" reasons. I'm sorry but your efforts to paint this as some sort of planned coup d'état by same sex couples is failing hard.
I'm not accusing "same sex couples" of anything. I am questioning the motives of these two people only, who happen to be a same sex couple. There is a difference.
Quote: You have a point here. Are there publicly funded preschools? Seems a bit much for them to be so selective with a preschool unless it was for safety concerns.
I do not know about public preschool aged education in the area in question, but one thing I can almost guarantee is that this one particular school is not the ONLY school in their area that caters to this age group.
Quote: Some of them are divorced, so I guess a Catholic organization would claim they are sinners. But iirc Catholics believe that we are all sinners from birth. I don't see why a person who is gay would have to give up their religion to be happy. There are plenty of black people who are Christians even though the history of that faith hasn't always had their well being in mind.
This is the hypocrisy of the catholic church. But divorce is not a major public issue atm and divorce is also not typically easy to "see". If a divorced parent drops their kid off at school it is unlikely that you could look at that person and say if they are divorced or not, or if a hetero couple of previously divorced people were to drop their child off again you would be unlikely to be able to see that they were previously married. However, with same sex couples that is clearly not the case. And as we are all aware of, the catholic church is VERY concerned with appearances and less concerned with the reasons behind them.
Quote: Play semantics if you want, Sir. You are still a hypocrite.
I fail to see how you have determined that I am a hypocrite based off what I have said in this thread. But considering that every person is a hypocrite in some form or fashion I suppose your statement is true in a sense.
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2010-03-13 20:47:58
Phoenix.Kojo said: Midgardsormr.Frobeus said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Midgardsormr.Frobeus said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Midgardsormr.Frobeus said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Irony.. Anyway, IDK if it's been said, but this 'Private Schools can do what they want' crap doesn't really sound right. You're saying if a school is privately owned, and funded (funded by parents)they can refuse a person due to such a reason. So let's look at this like this way.. If a person opens up a restaurant, privately owned and funded (by those who eat there) and the owner puts up a sign that sayes "No Gays" Are you saying that is ok? Most people would get sued because of that. Right and wrong is only part of the issue. At what point do you feel like it is ok for the government to step in and enforce "right and wrong" on people? If a resturant refused to allow gay customers then it should be their choice to do so. However, most won't do that because of the chain of events that would follow. Right, so, shouldn't these parents be able to insta-sue the school? My point was not that a gay customer could then sue the resturant but that the refusal of a customer based on such a thing would then cast the resturant in a bad light in the court of public opinion, thus driving away other customers and revenue. Then shouldn't parents start moving their children to another school? I wouldn't want my kids around bigotry and homophobia. Absolutely. That is def an option for the parents of the other children in the school. This does beg the question as to why the parents of kid wanted to send their child to the school in the first place, considering that they obviously differ from the school on such a hot button issue at a time when said issue is very much in the forefront of the public conscience.
Maybe, just maybe.. gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgender.. maybe they can be religious, too. And maybe this couple was and wanted their Daughter to have a Catholic education, maybe they thought a Catholic education would teach the girl to be a better person. I think the school will fail at that.
100% agree with that. It seems like a poor choice to try and send the kid there in the first place.
Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-03-13 20:54:14
Point was, a school or a church based on any religion shouldn't do something judgmental or unjust such as discrimination, as long as the persons believe that religion's beliefs. THAT is one reason we have Atheists nowadays (Not that Atheism is bad or wrong) People are losing faith in religion. The way I see it; if God hated gays, there would be no gays.
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-03-13 21:03:44
Midgardsormr.Frobeus said: I'm not accusing "same sex couples" of anything. I am questioning the motives of these two people only, who happen to be a same sex couple. There is a difference. Ok, I misinterpreted then. I am sorry.
Quote: I do not know about public preschool aged education in the area in question, but one thing I can almost guarantee is that this one particular school is not the ONLY school in their area that caters to this age group. I agree with this, but I wanted to add some personal experience.
My parents recently moved to a new area and still have my two younger middle school aged siblings with them. They asked around at work about the local school systems and got horror stories about the public school. Gang violence, open sexuality in the class room etc. Suffice to say it was not an atmosphere they wanted their children in.
We are not a religious family, but the only viable alternative was to either home school (which they had tried without success) or to enroll the children in a religious private school.
So far they have been pleased with the safety, but some of the teaching needs buffered with sound scientific principles from home.
An example that was in a text book was: Inherited disease is the result of original sin. True or False?
Quote: This is the hypocrisy of the catholic church. But divorce is not a major public issue atm and divorce is also not typically easy to "see". If a divorced parent drops their kid off at school it is unlikely that you could look at that person and say if they are divorced or not, or if a hetero couple of previously divorced people were to drop their child off again you would be unlikely to be able to see that they were previously married. However, with same sex couples that is clearly not the case. And as we are all aware of, the catholic church is VERY concerned with appearances and less concerned with the reasons behind them. I think we can agree on the failings of the Catholic Church.
Ramuh.Tousou
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By Ramuh.Tousou 2010-03-13 21:06:23
Phoenix.Kojo said: The way I see it; if God hated gays, there would be no gays.
Hi2u Free Will
Midgardsormr.Frobeus
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2010-03-13 21:14:03
Phoenix.Kojo said: Point was, a school or a church based on any religion shouldn't do something judgmental or unjust such as discrimination, as long as the persons believe that religion's beliefs. THAT is one reason we have Atheists nowadays (Not that Atheism is bad or wrong) People are losing faith in religion. The way I see it; if God hated gays, there would be no gays.
That's why there is a huge difference between "spiritual" people and "religious" people.
There is nothing wrong with spirituality or with people who believe in it.
With organized religion however, I think many of us here recognize the shortcomings and all of its problems are well documented.
(Referring back to my first rant about people talking out of their ***) If you scan back through the 7 pages of this thread so far, you can see that people have no idea what the difference is as they group both together as "Weak minded people" and "people who worship their imaginations". IMO these statements are based in ignorance which is ironic as they are used to attack what they perceive to be ignorance.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-03-13 21:14:50
Phoenix.Kojo said: The way I see it; if God hated gays, there would be no gays.
By that logic either god doesn't hate anything (clearly not true) or he is unable or unwilling to do anything about anything he hates, or just flat out doesn't exist. Because there is alot out there that any deity of any religion would very much not approve of
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-03-13 21:17:34
Ramuh.Dasva said: Phoenix.Kojo said: The way I see it; if God hated gays, there would be no gays. By that logic either god doesn't hate anything (clearly not true) or he is unable or unwilling to do anything about anything he hates, or just flat out doesn't exist. Because there is alot out there that any deity of any religion would very much not approve of
Good point, a good example is this school discriminating in God's name.
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By Odin.Liela 2010-03-13 21:28:27
Ramuh.Dasva said: Phoenix.Kojo said: The way I see it; if God hated gays, there would be no gays.
By that logic either god doesn't hate anything (clearly not true) or he is unable or unwilling to do anything about anything he hates, or just flat out doesn't exist. Because there is alot out there that any deity of any religion would very much not approve of
This is actually one of the (several) reasons that I have difficulty believing in a God. My parents were very strict Christians, and the teaching of my church was that our 'God' was all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing. Maybe that's not taught in all churches, but it was in mine. And it cannot possibly be true. If he is all-knowing, then he knows about all the suffering in the world, AND he knew about it when he created the tree. If you KNOW that the consequences of making this tree is that millions of people will suffer and you do it anyways, how can you be 'all loving?' If you did not know the consequences, then you are obviously not all-knowing. And if you know and you are loving, then why not stop it? Are you not 'all-powerful?' Every time I mention this to a Christian, they say it was because God wanted us to have a free will so we could worship him without being forced. Ok then. So, God made a tree to give us a choice to soothe his own conscience that caused millions of people to die and suffer. I'm still not seeing the logic of this.
Sorry, I know I probably seem pretty confused about it all, but just based on what was pounded into my head as a child, I cannot believe that God is all he is made out to be, if he exists.
Midgardsormr.Frobeus
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2010-03-13 21:28:59
Phoenix.Kojo said: Ramuh.Dasva said: Phoenix.Kojo said: The way I see it; if God hated gays, there would be no gays. By that logic either god doesn't hate anything (clearly not true) or he is unable or unwilling to do anything about anything he hates, or just flat out doesn't exist. Because there is alot out there that any deity of any religion would very much not approve of
Good point, a good example is this school discriminating in God's name.
They are using the premise of God as an enabler to discriminate against people that they do not want to associate themselves with.
[+]
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-03-13 21:32:02
Odin.Liela said: This is actually one of the (several) reasons that I have difficulty believing in a God. My parents were very strict Christians, and the teaching of my church was that our 'God' was all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing. Maybe that's not taught in all churches, but it was in mine. And it cannot possibly be true. If he is all-knowing, then he knows about all the suffering in the world, AND he knew about it when he created the tree. If you KNOW that the consequences of making this tree is that millions of people will suffer and you do it anyways, how can you be 'all loving?' If you did not know the consequences, then you are obviously not all-knowing. And if you know and you are loving, then why not stop it? Are you not 'all-powerful?' Every time I mention this to a Christian, they say it was because God wanted us to have a free will so we could worship him without being forced. Ok then. So, God made a tree to give us a choice to soothe his own conscience that caused millions of people to die and suffer. I'm still not seeing the logic of this.
Sorry, I know I probably seem pretty confused about it all, but just based on what was pounded into my head as a child, I cannot believe that God is all he is made out to be, if he exists. Of course not. He is being described by people who aren't looking objectively for something that may or may no be there but people looking for the perfect giant security blanket to let them know everything is all right. Well guess what everything isn't all right.
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-03-13 21:35:01
Midgardsormr.Frobeus said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Ramuh.Dasva said: Phoenix.Kojo said: The way I see it; if God hated gays, there would be no gays. By that logic either god doesn't hate anything (clearly not true) or he is unable or unwilling to do anything about anything he hates, or just flat out doesn't exist. Because there is alot out there that any deity of any religion would very much not approve of Good point, a good example is this school discriminating in God's name. They are using the premise of God as an enabler to discriminate against people that they do not want to associate themselves with.
Then through some logic, wouldn't that make them sinners? Just as 'bad' if not worse than the lesbian couple?
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-03-13 21:35:18
Anyways discrimation is at the heart of any organization or group not just religion. There is a need to feel apart of something special amongst like minded people which is where exclusions start taking place.
The group doesn't like this as a whole then the whole group denounces it and doesn't allow it. Why you would want to be apart of something that doesn't accept you is beyond me.
You don't see me crying that I will never ever appear on B.E.T do you? Nor would I feel comfortable if I had forced myself onto it
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2010-03-13 21:40:57
Odin.Liela said: Ramuh.Dasva said: Phoenix.Kojo said: The way I see it; if God hated gays, there would be no gays.
By that logic either god doesn't hate anything (clearly not true) or he is unable or unwilling to do anything about anything he hates, or just flat out doesn't exist. Because there is alot out there that any deity of any religion would very much not approve of
This is actually one of the (several) reasons that I have difficulty believing in a God. My parents were very strict Christians, and the teaching of my church was that our 'God' was all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing. Maybe that's not taught in all churches, but it was in mine. And it cannot possibly be true. If he is all-knowing, then he knows about all the suffering in the world, AND he knew about it when he created the tree. If you KNOW that the consequences of making this tree is that millions of people will suffer and you do it anyways, how can you be 'all loving?' If you did not know the consequences, then you are obviously not all-knowing. And if you know and you are loving, then why not stop it? Are you not 'all-powerful?' Every time I mention this to a Christian, they say it was because God wanted us to have a free will so we could worship him without being forced. Ok then. So, God made a tree to give us a choice to soothe his own conscience that caused millions of people to die and suffer. I'm still not seeing the logic of this.
Sorry, I know I probably seem pretty confused about it all, but just based on what was pounded into my head as a child, I cannot believe that God is all he is made out to be, if he exists.
This is a pretty common problem that people tend to have with the concept of God as presented in the Christian religion.
(Just being devil's advocate here btw, which is a bit odd in this situation) While we follow our own logic then it seems that God has put himself into a bit of a contradiction. However, should you not first consider that God (as taught in the Christian religion) is beyond our logic?
Consider an ant vs a human. The only thought process of the ant is seek food > gather food > bring food back to mound > defend mound when necessary.
Now if an ant witnessed a human walk up to cake stand then decide not to buy the cake and walk away, the ant would be very confused. How could a being that is so much greater than the ant see the food and simply leave it? To the ant this would be very "illogical". But the simple fact is, the ant does not and cannot fathom even the most simple of processes that occurred in the human's decision to not take the cake. (Remember, devil's advocate here) So when considering God (as taught by the Christian religion) I would think it would be an exercise in futility to try and explain the actions and choices of the most powerful being of all time with human logic and understanding.
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-03-13 21:41:44
Ramuh.Dasva said: Anyways discrimation is at the heart of any organization or group not just religion. There is a need to feel apart of something special amongst like minded people which is where exclusions start taking place. The group doesn't like this as a whole then the whole group denounces it and doesn't allow it. Why you would want to be apart of something that doesn't accept you is beyond me. You don't see me crying that I will never ever appear on B.E.T do you? Nor would I feel comfortable if I had forced myself onto it
I saw Jim Carry on B.E.T. earlier.
Midgardsormr.Frobeus
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2010-03-13 21:46:12
Phoenix.Kojo said: Midgardsormr.Frobeus said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Ramuh.Dasva said: Phoenix.Kojo said: The way I see it; if God hated gays, there would be no gays. By that logic either god doesn't hate anything (clearly not true) or he is unable or unwilling to do anything about anything he hates, or just flat out doesn't exist. Because there is alot out there that any deity of any religion would very much not approve of Good point, a good example is this school discriminating in God's name. They are using the premise of God as an enabler to discriminate against people that they do not want to associate themselves with.
Then through some logic, wouldn't that make them sinners? Just as 'bad' if not worse than the lesbian couple?
The answer here is irrelevant though. That school is not concerned with themselves but who they are associated with. The real question is, should a private group have the right to hang out with who they choose and to not allow who they choose? Regardless of if you think it's right or wrong, should the government ever be able to tell people in a private organization that they have to accept people that they choose to reject?
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-03-13 21:51:32
Midgardsormr.Frobeus said: (Remember, devil's advocate here) So when considering God (as taught by the Christian religion) I would think it would be an exercise in futility to try and explain the actions and choices of the most powerful being of all time with human logic and understanding. Of course it wasn't always taught that way and is merely an easy cop out loop hole to make it impossible to be "proven" wrong.
I can't be wrong because it's impossible to understand what is right!?! Yeah ok next
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-03-13 21:54:31
Midgardsormr.Frobeus said: The answer here is irrelevant though. That school is not concerned with themselves but who they are associated with. The real question is, should a private group have the right to hang out with who they choose and to not allow who they choose? Regardless of if you think it's right or wrong, should the government ever be able to tell people in a private organization that they have to accept people that they choose to reject? For a public school no. Obviously government ran and school being required legally...
But having the right to refuse service just cause has always been a big thing in business. Granted usually not used as in the end the bottom line is money and refusing customers usually loses you some.
But not always. One could argue that by accepting said student some parents would pull there kids out of that school. In fact I could almost garuntee at least a couple would.
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2010-03-13 22:12:41
Ramuh.Dasva said: Midgardsormr.Frobeus said: (Remember, devil's advocate here) So when considering God (as taught by the Christian religion) I would think it would be an exercise in futility to try and explain the actions and choices of the most powerful being of all time with human logic and understanding. Of course it wasn't always taught that way and is merely an easy cop out loop hole to make it impossible to be "proven" wrong.
I can't be wrong because it's impossible to understand what is right!?! Yeah ok next
Just because it's a cop-out and crap answer doesn't mean it isn't the best answer that can be given.
When you present an unanswerable question you must be prepared for a shitty answer. There is a reason that the debate about God has been going on for a really long time, and why non of us are going to be the ones to end it.
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By Bahamut.Phage 2010-03-13 22:27:04
Midgardsormr.Frobeus said: Ramuh.Dasva said: Midgardsormr.Frobeus said: (Remember, devil's advocate here) So when considering God (as taught by the Christian religion) I would think it would be an exercise in futility to try and explain the actions and choices of the most powerful being of all time with human logic and understanding. Of course it wasn't always taught that way and is merely an easy cop out loop hole to make it impossible to be "proven" wrong.
I can't be wrong because it's impossible to understand what is right!?! Yeah ok next
Just because it's a cop-out and crap answer doesn't mean it isn't the best answer that can be given.
When you present an unanswerable question you must be prepared for a shitty answer. There is a reason that the debate about God has been going on for a really long time, and why non of us are going to be the ones to end it.
I kinda agree with what you said here. But that's just the way a lot of people think now: "god exsists" ""proof or he doesn't"
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By Gilgamesh.Tirantus 2010-03-21 11:51:39
As much as I disagree with the church and virtually everything they stand for. I believe in freedom of choice. It is well within the rights of the church to deny this child an education in their school.
That being said, it is also well within the rights of any of the other parents who disagree with the church to remove their children from that school and go to a different one.
This is no different than not going to a store because it provides lackluster service. You stop going, thus they don't get your money. If enough people feel the same way and do the same thing, the store will go out of business. This is a fundamental principle society is based on. Sure it may not be as dramatic and attention grabbing as say shouting into a megaphone, waving signs, or going to the press. But it's no less effective.
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By Unicorn.Smurfo 2010-03-27 15:01:58
My only points on this topic are:
They are obviously NOT a catholic couple if they are not straight, because catholic teachings are rather old testament
They are putting this child through a horrible time and the child will be very confused about all of this.
In my opinion they KNEW something of this sort would happen and tried to enroll "their" child in a private catholic school even though it's physically impossible for it to be "theirs"
They were hoping to have grounds for suit even though it would torment this poor child... even more so than growing up confused about having two mother figures would.
I don't pity these kinds of people, i find them sick.
They are not stupid or naive, actually they are pretty smart, they knew damn well it would happen and were obviously plotting all of it at the expense of "their" child.
You would have to be *** HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE to not see this, they knew damn well it would happen and were either just hoping to stir ***publicity wise or have grounds for suit even though they really have none.
Private schools can deny service the same way a boss can fire you for no reason or a bar can cut off someone who is too drunk.
Ramuh.Ilvex
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By Ramuh.Ilvex 2010-03-27 15:06:57
1) It doesn't matter what their motives were.
2) Every single major civil rights movement has been a "stunt" to show an injustice.
3) They are called progressive Catholics, plenty of them around, and plenty of them straight and not willing to practice bigotry.
Edit: Yeah your boss can fire for no reason, but if they gave a reason like you're gay, that's illegal.
Same with refusing service because you're black. They coudl simply ask you to leave ect, but once they state a reason, like the church pre-school did, you open yourself up to a much easier law-suit
TheDenverChannel.com said:
Denver News
BOULDER, Colo. -- A preschooler is caught in the middle of a fight between religion and sexuality. Sacred Heart of Jesus Catholic School, in Boulder, has refused to readmit a preschooler because the child has two moms. Her parents are lesbians.
"God and Jesus would not allow discrimination in that way," said Joellen Raderstorf, one of about two dozen demonstrators who turned out at Sunday's church service.
Most of the protesters stood silently, across the street, holding signs. One read "God loves all people."
Some of them went inside during mass. The priest addressed the situation in his sermon.
"He feels like it's a calling to be strict with upholding the Catholic principles," said Dave Ensign, president of the Board of Directors of Boulder Pride, a gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender organization.
" People who understand the Catholic teaching will understand why the decision was made," said Fabien Ardila, a member of the parish.
However, not everyone in the parish agreed with the decision.
"I just feel the Catholic Church is a church that should be teaching acceptance and tolerance. I just don't think this is an example of that," Juli Aderman-Hagerty told 7NEWS as she was leaving Mass. "Father Breslin said it right. We're all sinners. Why discriminate against this end of sinners?"
Church leaders declined to answer questions from 7NEWS.
However, the Archdiocese of Denver did issue this statement:
"To preserve the mission of our schools, and to respect the faith of wider Catholic community, we expect all families who enroll students to live in accord with Catholic teaching. Parents living in open discord with Catholic teaching in areas of faith and morals unfortunately choose by their actions to disqualify their children from enrollment."
Raderstorf said it seems there's a double standard.
"I don't think they interview to see what parents are divorced or what parents are using birth control or other things that are against the teaching of the Catholic Church," she said.
Protesters said they'd like to see the decision reversed in this case. At the very least, they're glad their voices are being heard.
"Perhaps the reaction is a wake up call that we're at a point in history that we can't do discrimination like this without negative repercussions," said Ensign.
/angry can't comment.
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