The Odyssey - || Strategy And Discussion ||

I actually enjoy doing the fights over again to help people, even better if you can do it on a different job than you did on your 1st clear.

BUT, there is little incentive to do so, which is the main problem. 0 incentive if you've finished your RP.

If we take ambu PUGs for example (because it's a scenario where you don't lose much on failure except time) you have 2, maybe 3 attempts max befor people start leaving and put you on the avoid list.

There are rewards waiting for everyone for a successful ambu run and little to none for players who already progressed far enough into odyssey. I'm afraid this isn't going to change the PUG situation and with trusts you can't properly test run the full fight of higher tiers anyway, regardless of mog mastery.

Easier for sure, "much easier" I don't know.

One thing is making content easier by simply nerfing it, it's kind of a let down for who was looking for a challenge for who got it the day before.

This is technically making it easier, but it doesn't make the content directly easier, it "just" allows you to practice, but you still need to put in the effort, the time, the gear, the skill.

In my opinion this is a very positive thing, whereas from the context of your post I get that you consider it a negative thing?
Mind to explain better so I can understand your point of view?

To me it sounds like an improvement for everyone. I might have had a different opinion if they implemented this change a few months after content release but we're talking about years here, so it would be perfectly in line with the history of FFXI, long due and a very smart way to revitalize the content by making it more accessible but not directly easier.

He thinks it lessens the achievement if segments aren't on the line for each attempt and that segments farming is a incentive for people to log in and play together which would be needed less if you don't have to waste them on training anymore.

Imagine segments didn't exist and you could just enter bosses whenever you want without ever using a moglophone II. Do you think this would make it easier to learn how to kill a boss?

Now you, please, explain how making it easier to develop and practice a strategy for a boss wouldn't make it easier to kill that boss.

I think there is a lot of skill, gear, and effort that is required to kill all of the T3 V25s (and to a lesser degree the V20 T3s). I think part of the skill part of that is executing the difficult plans, getting your positioning right, using your abilities at the right times, etc. Practicing this is a key part of how you prepare for a winning fight.

Would you agree that each time you attempt a boss, you learn something about the fight? Maybe not on your 1000th attempt, but in the beginning? I think so, and that means that the attempt has some value and giving infinite, consequence-free attempts to the players adds value.

Hell, you could just go in with 3 players and attempt to land all the debuffs to time how long they last and whether or not you can land them. You can spend a whole run just kiting the add, to get your pathing down. You can attempt it without Caper 10 times, then try it with Caper 10 times to see if it's worth using your 1hr or if you should save that for a different KI.

I think the ability to go in without cost would allow people to do things that they wouldn't normally do when segments/moglophones are on the line. Do you not think that's the case? Why?

Obviously more attempts makes it easier. Practice makes perfect.

I don't believe anyone doesn't understand that is one of the oldest concepts in existence.

What he said was along the lines of not understanding why youre losing, just repeatedly entering without acknowledging the failures.

Just entering over and over isn't going to let you win, you have to figure out why you lost and improve before you try again.

OK, now let's address "much" easier.

If you had to weigh the difficulty of a V25 T3 fight, how would you weigh the things that add to the difficulty? I would say:

Gear: Sets minimum bar
Randomness: 5%
Strategy: 60%
Positioning: 30%
Communication: 5%

Varies by fight. You can practice and work on nearly all of this while in your infinite attempts, including/especially the actually difficult parts. Sure, it's not going to make it easier for you to meet the DPS checks, but it might, by changing the order in which you use JA, when you use 1hrs, etc. which could increase your DPS...You can learn new things like "let's practice using Asylum to block Droning Whirlwind" and then get increased DPS from not being dispelled...

Mastering your strategy is the best thing you can possibly do, hands-down, once you pass the minimum bar of gear required to beat one of these bosses. That's just like, my opinion man. High end Ody bosses are all about your execution, communication, and strategy. Making an adjustment to that part will have the largest impact to people's ability to win.

Whether or not that's a good thing is a whole 'nother conversation but yes, I think that giving free access to the fight would make it easier to win.


Sure, some people who will never be able to clear the fight because they have no ability to self-reflect will never win. Barring that though, anyone who actually has a chance to win would benefit from this change or other similar types of changes.

50% on positioning is awfully generous, especially when you consider how much of the playerbase seems perfectly fine with anchor and speed.

I don't think free access would really change much, personally. I get your argument, and I mostly agree with it, but people aren't failing to clear odyssey because they don't get enough chances. They're refusing to engage because they're used to being best in slot for bare minimum effort. The bar was raised too much for them, if they are struggling with anything less than V25 fights they see V25 as impossible and won't bother trying anything less because they see no potential to be BiS again.

It is, indirectly, quite clearly easier.
Limited attempts per week have been a very old method to slow down progression in MMO since the golden age.

I was debating that between the two typical methods used in MMOs to make things easier once they're old enough, one implies a direct impact on the difficulty of the content (by nerfing it), the other one implies an indirect simplification by removing the limited amounts of attempts. Which does indeed end up making the fight easier, but it doesn't remove the components related to you having the right jobs, geared enough, with the necessary amount of skill and teamwork.

So, for a content that's quite old now, it seems to me a quite acceptable solution even for people who stand on the side of keeping things as they are.


Even then, if you really think that would have such a negative impact on the game community (I don't, but let's not digress) they could make so the "enter free without RP gain" option is available only to people who already managed to defeat that content.
Would that make it satisfying for you?


The main problem I see with the way FFXI implemented limited amount of attempts this time (gating has pretty much always existed in FFXI after all) is that it requires you to do content A to be able to enter content B.
In my opinion this is a very players-unfriendly game design.
I think at that point it would've been better to put MoglophoneIIs on a 20hrs timer, stacking up to a certain amount (I dunno what would be an acceptable compromise, 12? 15? Whatever).
At that point you're still gated, but at least when you login you're not forced to do another content.


Segments would be still necessary to buy the Amplifier, for the gil reward at the end, they could even think about something else but honestly I think it's appalling enough in itself without being a mandatory gating to Sheol Gaol.
Jm2c.


I already said it would, indirectly, make Gaol content slightly easier to master. I think this is undeniable.
My point is rather: is it bad?
Because to me for a content this old it's a good thing, not a bad one.

I think there are ways to ease entrance that wouldn't have meaningful negative impact on the game. Perhaps the moglophone should be consumed when at least one member gains the bonus from an amplifier or kills a boss. If you attempt, but do not kill or amp, you could farm RP for free. But, the pace at which you'd be going would make it entirely pointless for a group capable of farming segments effectively.

This would allow groups to gain RP for their progress while working at their clear, but it wouldn't make things any easier for mercs. I do not think this would meaningful degrade the content, and it would provide extra incentive to work at it.

That said, I still don't think anything of this nature will fix the problem. SE made it too easy to have a 'perfect' character for too long, and a lot of people are still stuck in the mindset of getting that perfect character. They see R30 gear as unattainable, rule out that goal, and feel too demoralized to bother with R25. This is an ego/mindset issue, and minor changes like this won't be enough to make people chase a difficult goal again IMO.

You're right, I adjusted it a little bit in an edit but TBH positioning is really important in a lot of the V25s:

Ongo: Getting in/out for RD/WC fast, setting up bubbles in the right places, getting in/out for your SC fast. Kiting could fall into this bucket.
Arebati: RUN and PLD positioning so the PLD can cure the RUN but not be hit by AoE. RNG having space to HS while COR is shooting. Not too much else, though 1st KI has some (getting add away from boss to increase DPS uptime as much as possible, keeping add out of aura if possible)
Ngai: Extremely important, keeping melee in range of WHM while not dying to Marine Mayhem, avoiding conals hitting multiple people, running the adds away from the boss, etc.
Kalunga: Keeping people spread out enough to avoid conal from the turtles. You can get the turtle's target far enough from other players that its aoe autos don't hit them. Placing bubbles in the safest place possible
Mboze: Meleeing add/WSing boss requires very precise positioning so everyone can get around it. They have conal moves as well so pointing them in the right direction is important.
Xevioso: Lots of conals with 4 melee + PLD, it's quite important, plus you want somewhere the wyvern (if playing DRG) can safely sit without being conal'd to death. Does your WHM stand in with the group, the whole time or only after adds spawn?

It's a big factor and a lot of it has nothing to do with Anchor.

Most of these positions are just a matter of standing in the right place at the start and not moving after that, if you use anchor to prevent knockback. It is important to victory, but I would just consider it a very small subset of strategy if you are using anchor.

If you are actually dealing with knockback as intended, it is considerably more. But, like I said, the current state of the game means you're more likely to be b*tched at for not using anchor if you aren't in a long-standing static with a commitment to fair play.

I'm not sure what the "solution" to Odyssey is, TBH. I'm not tuned into the struggles of the people who are quitting FFXI or not logging in to know the causes behind it.

I think the content is really hard and that people probably get frustrated by it, think it's impossible, or that it's all RNG-based and not skill-based and then stop trying. That seems kinda baked into the content though and there's not much getting around that.

I certainly wouldn't want them to make it easier (lower stats, lower HP, lower damage, etc.) to avoid this problem. If given the alternative then yeah I think allowing some kind of segment-free entry would be preferable to a direct nerf, obviously.

Ultimately though, I think once you solve your "it's too hard for most people" problem, you run into a new problem: "everyone's beat Odyssey". WTF are you going to do in FFXI after you have your R30 Ody gear?

Not saying they should make content impossible to increase subs, but if you think the Asura folks are gonna keep subbing so they can help their friends clear things, or so they can sell the clears to some rubes to make another REMA, I think you're going to be disappointed with your sub charts.

There definitely needs to be a balance between making the content too hard that frustrates people into quitting and too easy that there's nothing to do, but IDK where that line is. I think it's perfectly reasonable for a group of well-coordinated, skilled players to beat any V25 boss right now.

It's a bit like WOW or FFXIV though, isn't it? There are V15/V20 for the more casual players and V25 for the hardcore sweaty nerds. WOW and FFXIV (AFAIK) have hardcore versions of their raids that most people struggle with completing or don't even engage with because they're casual and not sweaty.

I think there are a lot of posters on these forums that do a lot to push this narrative, too. Perhaps they are upset they can't win or whatever, but I've seen so many threads where people cry about the RNG preventing them winning.

In reality, if you have the strategy mastered, you might need a few tries to win (on Bumba, you might even need 10 or 12). This isn't an insane bar. The RNG is only a real problem if you're also failing your strategy check 90% of the time and counting on the RNG check to line up with the one time you play properly. I think it's important to call this *** out every time it gets mentioned.

As far as your greater point, I don't think difficulty changes are necessary. Accessibility changes might be. But ultimately, my impression is that FFXI players have developed a mindset that they deserve to be best in slot after years of content where anyone could win. WoW and FFXIV haven't had recent eras where half of endgame players were fully BIS like FFXI has. Whether or not I'm right, there is a clear unwillingness for the casual gamers to actually do v15 and v20.

I'm not referring to the skill involved in standing in that position, I'm referring to the knowledge/choice of where to stand in the first place. I think planning the proper position and having the knowledge/foresight to pick that position in the first place is an important factor. Playing with different positions for various characters is integral to getting a win.

For basically every single V25 T3, we've had a lot of discussions in my group about where people should be standing, where we should place bubbles, the wyvern, should the WHM be standing with us or not, where is the automaton going to be tanking the crabs, etc. You have to learn this through experience and they're calls you make based on your players and your strategy. These are, IMO, much more important than replacing a +1 neck with a +2, etc.

I definitely agree on the importance of positioning. I've played with too many people that have no situational awareness or positional awareness. It's like watching people decide to walk into traffic for no reason.

Without good group positioning, you lose consistency. If you're not trying for consistency on this content then I guess Odyssey is 100% RNG and SE is bad and everyone will miss you when you're gone.

I copied these into the descriptions of my YouTube videos, but posting here as well since this is the Odyssey strategy and discussion thread.

Arebati V25:
Ongo V25:
Mboze V25:
Xevioso V25:
Ngai V25:
Kalunga V25:
(WIP) Bumba V25:
These are just the role-specific notes I made for my friends so it doesn't include all the details of the general strategies, but I'm sure it could help give some ideas of JA/buff/spell usage.

Giving a suggested % to be at by number of KI would help.
e.g. "by end of 1st KI it needs to be 65-70% max"

Thanks.

Added comments in each of the multi-KI strats with this info.

For Kalunga does the BRD stop DPS during sc window for aura? WAR and COR focus on alternating WS?
PLD can hold hate with no sirvente? I hate having to put it back up on BRD over and over but people are very anal about it.

All other DD can continue meleeing during fetter window, just don't WS (unless you're part of the SC for procing it). Your DPS can help to knock down his stoneskin if he puts it up, plus you may be needed to help with the SC. Sometimes the two people assigned to the SC can't get TP in time and they need a fill-in.

I've never had Sirvente in my entire life while tanking Kalunga, it is absolutely not necessary. If I could have songs (you shouldn't be re-applying songs IMO), I would much rather have VMarch than Sirvente, personally.

I think people seriously misunderstand Sirvente or overestimate its impact. Good luck with trying to argue this though, I don't envy you.

To clarify: Sirvente gives enmity retention, not +enmity. This helps reduce the amount of enmity you lose when taking damage from Kalunga. This is, in my opinion, not very impactful. I say I'd rather have VMarch because it reduces your Flash cooldown which is much more impactful for enmity generation, plus you attack faster and can get off more Atonements. I'd say if I had my choice (again, please don't re-apply songs during Kalunga) it would be VMarch -> Fire Carol II -> Fire Carol -> Blade Madrigal.

Yeah this is always the hard part with random people, if the COR is not ready with TP and the BRD needs to WS to make SC but not interrupt things it is really hard to do without voice chat.

Also yeah I meant "stop WSing" not "stop DPS" there.

After lobby tacticians wears off, how does PLD and BST get TP? The latter I assume with Gleti's and an Icarus wing (which will medicate you for as couple of hours). Unclear how PLD gets TP to keep up with NIN. I assume Reikiko? In these cases, your notes should definitely include these gear options (including Gokotai, RDM max enstone set with sash and gloves) since most people just read and don't apply any sense to how it will be achieved.

Also, you have THF in one of your starts for 3KI Ongo stealing the 40% Sforzo. Have you personally tested this or just assuming it will work? I checked my notes in this very thread from a few years ago. Seems to conflict with how Larfeny works.

Reikiko and Vim Torque +1. BST is Gleti only, they get at most 2 SC off in the entire 15 minutes. PLD doesn't keep up with NIN, the NIN is always ready before the PLD (barring Fotia procs). Oh, and PLD can get TP from blocks so using Reprisal and Pallisade are helpful since Aegis' block rate sucks.

I'm not currently planning to handhold everyone through how to build their sets, this is more advice than a paint-by-numbers. If people have other questions I'm happy to answer, but I think some filling in the blanks will be necessary ultimately, unless I post 10 gearsets per job for all 20 KIs. On that note though, max enspell set includes a whole hell of a lot more than Osash and Ayanmo gloves and you should be wearing a maxed out enspell set, including merits.

I think my original posts were lacking in detail, largely because of the character limit in Discord messages...I will add some extra detail where possible.


Yes, it definitely works on Elemental Sforzo, not sure why, probably that all SP1 can be stolen and only SP2 can't be stolen. I hope it doesn't need to be mentioned but just in case there are incurious people who don't play RUN and can't be bothered to check: ES is the SP1, Odyllic Subterfuge is the RUN SP2.

We finally got the clear. We had a first time PUG WHM and forgot to reset SPs so didn't have SV songs until 8 minutes left.

PLD, WAR, BLU!, COR, BRD, WHM

WAR and BLU did the SCs to break Aura. We did Raging > Savage on repeat.

BLU was a game changer, clutch heals, mighty guard and solid DPS.

March was the song we prioritized on PLD for flash recast. Make sure RD and WC hit the PLD since they will need all the JAs they can get especially towards the end.

We also stood close enough together that PLD and WHM cures hit everyone. This meant taking fetter damage and having to panacea off the burn.

Meva down (which sucks) at 75% and attack down at 40%.

Congrats on the win! Told you that you had it.

This isn't necessary, FYI. Majesty cures and Curagas will already hit everyone if you're in the correct positions. I've never been hit by a fetter on any job other than PLD on Kalunga and we are still affected by curagas and Majesty cures. I recommend going to the right of where the boss starts, PLD putting back against the uneven section of floor with the broken guardrail, COR BRD (BLU or GEO) put their backs in the nook to avoid KB, the other melee stands out in the open (needs to run back in constantly or use Anchor). Everyone stays at max melee range from Kalunga and you should be all set.

Yes, thank you for the help! especially taking the time to write back my PMs.

Might Guard plus MDB/meva sets really made the fetters a non-issue.

I don't think the lack of engagement in V20+ Odyssey has anything to do with the content being "too hard".

This will likely ruffle some feathers, but I doubt I am saying anything extraordinary.

The reason engagement with V25 is so low is simple. Majority of players are used to being carried through content and can't actually play the few jobs they have to any high level of competence.

All of a sudden, 6 person Odyssey comes along and there's no room for carries anymore. What will all those people, used to skating by on whatever job they feel like, do. Not Odyssey, for one.

Certainly not gearing up the jobs required to do the content, that's "too hard". Or learning the mechanics or their role in that setup, also "too hard".

All you have left is the 1% try hards that have all the jobs no one wants to play and know the setups and mechanics and can guide people to what is needed. What those people can't do is gear up 22 jobs for everyone else and tell them what button to press and when.

That still leaves a massive skill gap from "I want to do V20/V25" to "I am able to do my role in a V20/V25 competently". Not even approaching "I have bst/brd/drg/dnc/geo or whatever other job is needed".

When you combine these things, along with an unwillingness to gear jobs necessary to do multi-KI fights, which seems to be the design, you have groups hoping for RNG-deity to shine upon thee because they keep trying to do 1 KI fights with the jobs they have rather than gearing up new ones so they can make it easier on themselves.

This is just asinine.

The low participation rate for V20+ is purely due to the ridiculously low margin of error combined with this being a 20+ year old game.

All the BS "gotchas" involved makes those fights frustrating for statics and damn near impossible for PUGs. That kind of stuff just isn't popular in todays MMO landscape and those who are still around have work, children and other extra curricular activities. Telling them, with a straight face, they aren't "hard core" enough is just getting you laughed at.

Yes we are laughing at you.

Kalunga / Xevioso / Ngai are really just survival fights, you don't need crazy high DPS but is very hard to recover if someone dies. We won consistently with PLD WAR COR BRD GEO WHM, the GEO is doing Barrier/Fury due to the adds though I can see Diffusion MG + Resets accomplishing the same job. Our GEO stood right under the doggies butthole and acted as a curaga anchor. And yeah EVERYONE needs to be in defensive gear, not just "50% DT duhh" but actual DEF / HP / MDB / MEVA stats to survive hits in between the curagas.