The Odyssey - || Strategy And Discussion ||
The Odyssey - || Strategy and Discussion ||
Does Tomahawk help increase damage of the susceptible damage type for T3+ V25 fights? As in would it increase Pierce damage against say Arebati or Slash damage against Mboze? And if so, what is the theoretical increase %? I was under the assumption that it only helped the non-susceptible damage types (i.e the damage types a mob would be immune against).
it reduces the -25% damage taken they have at V25 AFAIK
For clarity it's 25% multiplicatively, not additively. It's agnostic of what kind of damage reduction it is and reduces resistance to every main physical damage type and magic (not sure about spirit/breath)
Lakshmi.Haaydee said: »
Does Tomahawk help increase damage of the susceptible damage type for T3+ V25 fights? As in would it increase Pierce damage against say Arebati or Slash damage against Mboze? And if so, what is the theoretical increase %? I was under the assumption that it only helped the non-susceptible damage types (i.e the damage types a mob would be immune against).
There are two effects, the first is well known, the second not so much.
The first is the -25% to the monsters SDT values. If the monster has -75% from blunt then it becomes -75 * 0.75 = -56.25 to blunt damage. If it's -50% from slashing, then it becomes -50 * 0.75 = -37.5 to slashing.
The second effect is that it reduces those special cumulative damage wall effects similar to and stacks with rayke. This secondary effect is very useful on bosses that do the whole "consecutive uses of the same weapon skill reduce damage" BS.
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tomahawk is -30% with merits / feet
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Does anybody know offhand what the minimum UNM cost is to pop NMs on the various floors of Sheol A, B, and C? I'm on a mission to minimize all costs in Odyssey. I'm currently finishing Sheol A and just need to open 11 more Aurum chests to reduce that to 10 izzat. It still costs 10 items to pop UNMs on Floor 7 and 4 items to pop on Floor 6. It only costs 1 UNM item Floor 1-5 currently. Just not sure how close I am to minimizing those UNM costs. . . Thanks for any insight!
I don't recall anyone ever nailing down a formula for UNM material cost decrease. Izzat-based decreases are based on hitting certain thresholds which reduce the cost every time a new Moogle Mastery tier for that category is met. But for UNM materials, it's based on how many times you pop an NM on each floor. Don't think anyone ever reported maxing the decrease in A-7 or B-6, so you'll have to tell us every time the cost goes down, how many times you've killed an NM on that floor. It might be something similar to the MM trend or something arbitrary (every 6 kills equals -1 material consumed).
Byrth took extensive notes when he was climbing, he might know the formula and cap.
Byrth took extensive notes when he was climbing, he might know the formula and cap.
Necro Bump Detected!
[42 days between previous and next post]Was there some measurement of how many different WS need to be used to eliminate wall for V25? I think for Amnion the consensus is 5(?) different WS. Is it same for Odyssey or is the threshold lower?
Lakshmi.Haaydee said: »
Was there some measurement of how many different WS need to be used to eliminate wall for V25? I think for Amnion the consensus is 5(?) different WS. Is it same for Odyssey or is the threshold lower?
6 different for all wall enemies. 5 is a 10% wall.
Edit: There seems to be a different wall in Odyssey then Sortie.
Order matters too, if it's always 1 of each ws before any repeat, I think 5 is enough? If one person has considerably higher WS frequency, may need 7 or more to avoid any penalty on that person.
Most offensive actions seem to reduce it as well(not sure about dia/bio? but other landed debuffs, JA, etc) so if you don't have that many different WS it's not a bad idea to look into ways you can incorporate those.
Most offensive actions seem to reduce it as well(not sure about dia/bio? but other landed debuffs, JA, etc) so if you don't have that many different WS it's not a bad idea to look into ways you can incorporate those.
Trying to get a gauge for how bad I am at segment farming. What would be an acceptable fragment farm for a quad box of BRD/COR/RDM/RUN? I feel pretty well geared, minus ody gear and prime weapons
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Trying to get a gauge for how bad I am at segment farming. What would be an acceptable fragment farm for a quad box of BRD/COR/RDM/RUN? I feel pretty well geared, minus ody gear and prime weapons
How would you even define what "acceptable" is? It's your personal metric. The best you're going to be able to compare it to is what a group of 6 people get. A standard pickup group on asura usually pulls around 8-10k segs and roughly 1-1.2 mil gil at the conflux. Bad groups may only get 5-6k and great ones may get 11-12k. A perfect run where you kill every mob in the zone and pop all 4 NMs results in roughly 2750 bonus segs at the flux if you're efficient with izzat and I think 1.54 mil gil, which is the maximum a single run can pay out via full clear. Multiboxing is inherently less efficient than 6 individual players all focused on one character, and there's already a wide range of results. Mob families also play into things. Dahaks, flans, ghosts, and clots are nasty, bones are great with a warrior but not so great otherwise, and some families (chigoe, rabbit etc) are just freebies. Just use your own sense of judgment. There is no right or wrong answer to that question.
Cerberus.Echohawk said: »
Trying to get a gauge for how bad I am at segment farming. What would be an acceptable fragment farm for a quad box of BRD/COR/RDM/RUN? I feel pretty well geared, minus ody gear and prime weapons
Asura.Warmoose said: »
I haven't seen anything suggesting that other offensive actions reduce the wall, other than WSing again outside the 10s window or other varied WSs. Unless I missed it.
There's no 10 second window[this comes from when it was originally bugged]. It's a progressive nerf that increases in step each time you use the WS, and decreases in step once enough different actions are used. You start with Savage Blade, mob goes to first step of savage blade nerf:
Savage Blade (-25%)
Then, someone uses Upheaval. Mob goes to:
Savage Blade (-25%, 1/5)
Upheaval (-25%)
Someone else uses Flat Blade. Mob goes to:
Savage Blade (-25%, 2/5)
Upheaval (-25%, 1/5)
Flat Blade (-25%)
Someone uses Fast Blade. Mob goes to:
Savage Blade (-25%, 3/5)
Upheaval (-25%, 2/5)
Flat Blade (-25%, 1/5)
Fast Blade (-25%)
Once 5 different WS are used, savage blade has hit 5/5 and penalty goes back down to 0. If you use savage blade again before then, it goes to next step of penalty. I believe the steps are 25%, 50%, 62.5%, 75%, 87.5%. It does not wear off with time any more. I have not seen a test that indicates whether 5 WS will clear a higher level of penalty at once, or just reduce it by 1 step, but I believe it just gets reduced by 1 step.
The same wall was present in HTBC and Dyna[D], and actions such as blood pacts, landed debuffs, and certain offensive JA counted for the reduction there. I have not done a controlled test in Odyssey, given the general nature of the content, and it is entirely possible I am wrong and they do not help in Odyssey. Might also be interesting to see how trusts like August or Teodor with WS-style melee interact with it(though probably not viable in Odyssey, may be useful for smaller Sortie groups).
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Once 5 different WS are used, savage blade has hit 5/5 and penalty goes back down to 0. If you use savage blade again before then, it goes to next step of penalty. I believe the steps are 25%, 50%, 62.5%, 75%, 87.5%. It does not wear off with time any more. I have not seen a test that indicates whether 5 WS will clear a higher level of penalty at once, or just reduce it by 1 step, but I believe it just gets reduced by 1 step.
From personal experience I don't think it works quite like that. The most notable example I can think of is KI 2 on Arrebati vengence 25 where I've gone in on ranger. For the majority of the fight I alternate between Coronach and Slug shot, while the corsair uses last stand and detonator. We never include a 5th weaponskill and I rely far more on coronach than slug shot. I only fire off slug shot when coronach is going to chain with itself to make darkness with aura up to avoid a 99k cure. My ratio of weaponslills is typically close to 80% coronaches and only 20% slug shots. With only three main weaponskills in the rotation I end up spamming coronach far more than any other weaponskill gets used, and if it works the way you imply that would mean my coronaches should be hitting the 87.5% cap pretty quickly and never drop down.
It doesn't pan out that way. Coronach starts out doing 15-17k at the start of the fight and consistently peaks at 30-32k when hover shot is capped. Its damage stays consistent the entire time. Even with attack down aura it usually only drops to the 22-26k range. If I was eating 75% and 87.5% penalties I would KNOW it. So there has to be something more to the wall reduction than just the variety of weaponskills used. If it worked the way you suggest I should AT LEAST be at step 2 the entire fight, and I'm not seeing 50% damage reduction like that at all.
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Ehh something's off with that because with just myself and a MNK doing Judgement and Howling on Ngai, we did not run into -87.5% reduction. I have no doubt that there is a progressive wall, if I just do Judgement and the MNK doesn't WS then I will hit that -87.5%. The moment the MNK starts WSing my numbers go back up.
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Ehh something's off with that because just myself and a MNK doing Judgement and Howling on Ngai did not run into -87.5% reduction.
I was going to use this as my second example. When I brought monk to Ngai I would rely hevily on howling fist and our warrior would mainly use judgment. For the bulk of the fight there were two main weaponskills. I'd throw in the odd raging fists or victory smite here and there, and tornado kick when footwork was up, but nothing ever compared to howling fist because howling fist has that big fat 1.5 attack multiplier and on V25 50% bonus attack is a monstrous deal. We definately didn't rotate a large variety of weaponskills in that fight and again.... never saw the damage reduction Thorny implied.
I've not doubt the wall exists and that repeat uses does make weaponskills less potent, but I'm 100% certain there's something off with thorny's description. I could cite kalunga as a third example, where when I warrior I rely on only two weaponskills -- calamity and mistral axe. The only other weaponskill use did in that fight was savage blade, which the cor and bard both spammed. I used far more calamities than mistrals, and again... we never run into 50% damage walls much less 87.5% ones on the regular. You would KNOW if your damage was tanking THAT hard. It would be visible to the naked eye.
I'm using old data from the dyna-d wall, which appears to operate the same way, so it is absolutely possible[probable it would seem] that I'm wrong.
I have not seen any focused attempt to quantify exactly how it works in Odyssey or Sortie past 'use more different WS', though. I'd love to see the testing if anyone has.
Perhaps the higher tiers of penalties are removed quicker, and you only need a large number of alternative actions to clear the initial 25% penalty? I am not sure that COR and BRD both spamming Savage Blade counts any less toward clearing axe penalties than if they were spamming different WS, either. I believe any WS reduces the penalty for any other WS, so while 2 savage would penalize savage faster it wouldn't reduce Calamity/Mistral penalty any slower.
I have not seen any focused attempt to quantify exactly how it works in Odyssey or Sortie past 'use more different WS', though. I'd love to see the testing if anyone has.
Perhaps the higher tiers of penalties are removed quicker, and you only need a large number of alternative actions to clear the initial 25% penalty? I am not sure that COR and BRD both spamming Savage Blade counts any less toward clearing axe penalties than if they were spamming different WS, either. I believe any WS reduces the penalty for any other WS, so while 2 savage would penalize savage faster it wouldn't reduce Calamity/Mistral penalty any slower.
Youd have to waste segments but it'd be very simple to test with elemental ws's that do exact numbers everytime
(v24 or v23 or wherever they stop taking 0 damage)
You could even throw in dia bio choke nukes steps and all that ***too
wildfire > wildfire does 10k > 8750 (or 7500 or 6600 whatever)
wildfire > sb > wf does 10k > x > 8750 (or 7500 or 6600 whatever)
wildfire > sb > viperbite > wf does 10k > x > x > 8750 (or 7500 or 6600 whatever)
Until you do 10k again
Then rotate in leaden then rotate in AE
Super simple to do instead of wondering. Spend 3 years wondering or 15 minutes answering...
(v24 or v23 or wherever they stop taking 0 damage)
You could even throw in dia bio choke nukes steps and all that ***too
wildfire > wildfire does 10k > 8750 (or 7500 or 6600 whatever)
wildfire > sb > wf does 10k > x > 8750 (or 7500 or 6600 whatever)
wildfire > sb > viperbite > wf does 10k > x > x > 8750 (or 7500 or 6600 whatever)
Until you do 10k again
Then rotate in leaden then rotate in AE
Super simple to do instead of wondering. Spend 3 years wondering or 15 minutes answering...
I was discussing this last night and we always did v25 with the 10 second rule in mind. That seems to fit the above post as well.
This is very different from Sortie where there is an obvious pick up in damage on Aminion with 6 WSs rotating vs 4-5.
This is very different from Sortie where there is an obvious pick up in damage on Aminion with 6 WSs rotating vs 4-5.
I don't think there is any testing on how the oddy gaol wall works. I've spent the past three and a half years spamming these fights on V15, 20, and 25 though, and while I can't offer an explanation as to how the wall does work, I can say with certainty that the explanation you gave isn't how it works. I know the wall is there, I can see it when people start dying and I'm the only DD left weaponskilling on the mob. It's very noticeable when the wall starts building up, but it never poses much of an issue until that situation happens where only one person is hitting the boss and everyone else is weakened. As long as two or more people are weaponskilling, the wall never builds up and numbers are always consistent.
I always throw in a little variety but I still rely primarily on one weaponskill. Raging and mistral on kalunga with pririty going to raging (this is the same for Mboze), Rudra's and evisceration on xevioso with priority (HEAVILY) going toward rudra's (this applies to dancer on KI1 arrebati V25 as well), howling fist on Ngai with a sprinkling of raging, tornado, and smite, and coronach as much as humanly possible on KI2 arebati (because enmity cap is a ***).
I always throw in a little variety but I still rely primarily on one weaponskill. Raging and mistral on kalunga with pririty going to raging (this is the same for Mboze), Rudra's and evisceration on xevioso with priority (HEAVILY) going toward rudra's (this applies to dancer on KI1 arrebati V25 as well), howling fist on Ngai with a sprinkling of raging, tornado, and smite, and coronach as much as humanly possible on KI2 arebati (because enmity cap is a ***).
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Ehh something's off with that because with just myself and a MNK doing Judgement and Howling on Ngai, we did not run into -87.5% reduction. I have no doubt that there is a progressive wall, if I just do Judgement and the MNK doesn't WS then I will hit that -87.5%. The moment the MNK starts WSing my numbers go back up.
I don't know what WS you are recommending that does completely consistant damage, varying TP throws it off and you can't get 3000 fast enough to consistantly compare at 3000 on a V25(even T1). Dealan-dhe and U Bnai both seem immune to spirits within, which is what I was hoping to test with, suspect they all are. It would need to be something that can't DA, isn't likely to resist, and doesn't vary with TP (or a lot more math/logging is needed to compensate).
I did a quick test on the 10 second theory, and it doesn't seem like time has any impact on it. A couple of WS were higher than others after waiting ~40s, but not by enough to be the 75-87.5% step.. assuming it's just variance in TP.
Considerably more than 15 min answering, since you have to find a model and the mobs all hit back. It seems clear that testing in dyna is not adequate, so V25 sortie is the minimum bar. If you find the number of alternate WS needed to keep 100%... there's no guarantee it's the same amount to keep 75% or 50%.
I did a quick test on the 10 second theory, and it doesn't seem like time has any impact on it. A couple of WS were higher than others after waiting ~40s, but not by enough to be the 75-87.5% step.. assuming it's just variance in TP.
Code
[09:55:53.598] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 422 points of damage. [09:56:06.117] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 369 points of damage. [09:56:19.977] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 351 points of damage. [09:56:35.164] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 246 points of damage. [09:56:45.520] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 168 points of damage. [09:56:56.395] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 82 points of damage. [09:57:07.400] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 66 points of damage. [09:57:18.170] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 61 points of damage. [09:57:29.502] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 60 points of damage. [09:57:39.411] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 66 points of damage. [09:57:59.434] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 73 points of damage. [09:58:08.471] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 63 points of damage. [09:58:49.503] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 87 points of damage. <--- [09:59:12.140] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 77 points of damage. [10:00:18.036] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 82 points of damage. <--- [10:00:43.126] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 58 points of damage.
Asura.Eiryl said: »
15 minutes answering...
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I disagree, 2 DD just using 2 WS are not hitting 100% damage in my opinion.
We aren't saying our weaponskills are going off at 100%, just that they aren't scaling resistances nearly as fast as Thorny implies. We don't know exactly how the wall works, and I think everyone is agreement that it exists and that it's lowering damage, but by how much and how the scaling works isn't well known. Not weaponskilling at 100% power isn't nearly the same as being reduced by 50% or 75%. It's reducing damage yes, but not by anything close to that level of severity.
Shiva.Thorny said: »
I don't know what WS you are recommending that does completely consistant damage, varying TP throws it off and you can't get 3000 fast enough to consistantly compare at 3000 on a V25(even T1). Dealan-dhe and U Bnai both seem immune to spirits within, which is what I was hoping to test with, suspect they all are. It would need to be something that can't DA, isn't likely to resist, and doesn't vary with TP (or a lot more math/logging is needed to compensate).
I did a quick test on the 10 second theory, and it doesn't seem like time has any impact on it. A couple of WS were higher than others after waiting ~40s, but not by enough to be the 75-87.5% step.. assuming it's just variance in TP.
Considerably more than 15 min answering, since you have to find a model and the mobs all hit back. It seems clear that testing in dyna is not adequate, so V25 sortie is the minimum bar. If you find the number of alternate WS needed to keep 100%... there's no guarantee it's the same amount to keep 75% or 50%.
I did a quick test on the 10 second theory, and it doesn't seem like time has any impact on it. A couple of WS were higher than others after waiting ~40s, but not by enough to be the 75-87.5% step.. assuming it's just variance in TP.
Code
[09:55:53.598] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 422 points of damage. [09:56:06.117] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 369 points of damage. [09:56:19.977] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 351 points of damage. [09:56:35.164] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 246 points of damage. [09:56:45.520] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 168 points of damage. [09:56:56.395] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 82 points of damage. [09:57:07.400] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 66 points of damage. [09:57:18.170] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 61 points of damage. [09:57:29.502] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 60 points of damage. [09:57:39.411] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 66 points of damage. [09:57:59.434] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 73 points of damage. [09:58:08.471] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 63 points of damage. [09:58:49.503] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 87 points of damage. <--- [09:59:12.140] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 77 points of damage. [10:00:18.036] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 82 points of damage. <--- [10:00:43.126] Character uses Burning Blade. Dealan-dhe takes 58 points of damage.
Asura.Eiryl said: »
15 minutes answering...
Don't solo it, youre gonna need a tank frazzle languor and your cor can keep consistent tp by not being hit. Wildfire has no scaling.
Come on now
More effort and free chars than I have available atm. It's still not a 15 minute test even if using a full party, but it would be considerably faster. You also have to consider if doing one full damage WS means the residual counter is totally zeroed, or just below a threshold. There are a lot of questions to answer if trying to completely analyze how it works.
I'm guessing nobody else is going to do it, so will see when I have the time/motivation and chars free.
I'm guessing nobody else is going to do it, so will see when I have the time/motivation and chars free.
I mean, you can get into figuring it out exactly, or you can get a fast answer (in 15 minutes) then expand later if neccesary.
All you want to know is will wildfire do the same or less damage after 1 different ws, 2 different ws's, a QD, a dia, a step, a voke
Just doing that will give you (exact) wall reduction % and where they are/break. Use that to figure out anything else after. (when freetime exists)
All you want to know is will wildfire do the same or less damage after 1 different ws, 2 different ws's, a QD, a dia, a step, a voke
Just doing that will give you (exact) wall reduction % and where they are/break. Use that to figure out anything else after. (when freetime exists)
I thought we had a fast answer; 5 WS in between(6 total). The reason you need a specific answer is to back up the credibility of the fast answer. If we don't know for sure if other actions count, time is a factor, etc.. it's hard to say the number of WS because most people *are* doing other actions and time is always elapsing.
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