The Odyssey - || Strategy And Discussion ||

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The Odyssey - || Strategy and Discussion ||
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 Sylph.Gobbo
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By Sylph.Gobbo 2021-04-20 03:26:24
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Guyford said: »
As for wanting the same boss, the content was designed to highlight having multiple jobs on the same character (although somewhat poorly since there's no real impetus to use their job lockout mechanic) and the bosses have weapons that people might want who don't play jobs on the bosses armor. Ex. Bee katana is nice and I still want to do it although I don't play cor or rng.

You gonna upgrade 5 Katanas to help your friends work on their entire set?
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By kairyu 2021-04-20 03:39:42
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Asura.Sechs said: »
kairyu said: »
It’s only fair to note; at the point this game is at after nearly 20 years, there is literally nothing that can be implemented into this game that a cohort of players are not going to be happy with.
Granted this is a very valid rule of thumb in general, in all aspects of life, I beg to disagree.

Are we seeing a lot of people complaining about Odyssey? Yes, since day one.
Have we seen this many people complaining about Omen or Divergence? Not at all. (well for Divergence there were a lot of complaints but they were mostly about the technical aspects of lag etc, it's a different story and let's leave it ouside for the moment).

This shows how while it's impossible to make everyone happy, it's absolutely possible to make the majority of players happy.
They did it before, they could've done it this time, they simply failed. I'm sure they'll nail it again eventually, just not this time.

Admittedly I can’t comment on how many people complained about omen/divergence because of when I returned to the game, but tell me, who is unhappy? How has that been quantified in this instance versus other endgame content? Your comment suggests that the majority of players aren’t happy. Not trying to flame, but I do think that saying the majority of players are unhappy is a big statement.
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By Vaerix 2021-04-20 03:54:27
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Sylph.Gobbo said: »

You gonna upgrade 5 Katanas to help your friends work on their entire set?

I don't know about you, but do you really see a reason to upgrade all 5 pieces of Ikenga? If so, please tell me why because I'd love to know the cor rng set isn't just a couple swap pieces at best...
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2021-04-20 03:55:27
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kairyu said: »
Your comment suggests that the majority of players aren’t happy.
Nah, majority would be a wild guess, I doubt it's the majority. A considerable amount of players, a noticeably higher number of players compared to previous content, definitely not the majority.


Quote:
who is unhappy?
Hmm, good question.
In general people who feel like this content isn't tailored for their needs.
Previous content were more "general" in that sense, as in it targeted a larger amount of different people with different needs.
Odyssey offers some degree of variance, but clearly this is thinner than past events.
So to name some examples, people who are probably not completely happy with the current state of Odyssey:

  • People who don't want to do "another content" to access part of the content they're interested in. This is highly debateable, but it can be seen with the fact that Sheol: Gaol requires people to play Sheol A/B/C to be granted access to Gaol itself. Previous content were independent, with 20hrs and 60hrs cooldowns respectively but no other action required to access the content. This also played better if you wanted to go PUG, as long as you had clearance to enter (for which you had to do nothing other than "wait") you were free to enter the content. Here you have to "farm" in advance (segments)

  • People who want to use the new content as a "Linkshell event". Could do that with Omen and Divergence, can't do it with Odyssey because of the 6people limit and because of the KI storage system

  • People who have a static but want to farm different targets. Like you want to upgrade Bunzi set, but other people in your static want Sakpata and others want Mpaca, for instance.

  • People who are more than willing to spend a lot of time in the long term goal of obtaining something, even more than they did with the previous content, but feel frustrated by seeing the goal so far, so much that sometimes they don't even want to bother with it (too much grind)

  • People who only can/want log max 2-3 times per week, and feel like this content "demands" they log every day, and even if they can it leaves a sour feeling of frustration/being left behind. Arguably this has a larger psychologycal impact than practical one, but still it's a widely shared point of complaint for many players.



I dunno, these are the first things that come to mind when I try to remember the most frequent complaints we've seen in-game and on forums.
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 Fenrir.Melphina
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2021-04-20 04:24:00
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Quote:
People who have a static but want to farm different targets. Like you want to upgrade Bunzi set, but other people in your static want Sakpata and others want Mpaca, for instance.

This!! This right here is why this event sucks hard. It's not static friendly. It's almost like they expect us to PUG the atonement 3's for the NMs we want specifically, but then they went and made those atonement 3's so damn challenging on higher vengs that PUGS just won't be able handle them.

If we have to spend all this time farming segments, the least they could do is make it so we don't have to burn them on killing nms that we don't want to fight and not get credit for it. There's no rank point exchange system, but even if there was... would anyone even be happy wasting rank points on a 3 to 1 (or worse) conversion? Rank points should be allocatable to any piece of equipment within the tier. The "NM specific RP" system is the worst inclusion they've built into content since land gods existed back in the lvl 75 era..... or maybe voidwatch would be more comparable. Everyone remembers how grindy logwatch was when it first came out.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2021-04-20 05:10:29
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There's pros and cons with the Odyssey RP system compared to the Divergence one.

In Divergence you had to keep the item equipped and you had to be alive to receive RPs, this bound you to lock one slot out and to use specific jobs, when maybe you were required on a different job on that run and so on.
Also in Divergence you could get done just being AFK. This could be good or bad, I guess it depends on your point of view.

Divergence also required a few runs (like 5? 6 max?) to cap R25.
The game did offer you a choice to upgrade with Crystals. It was a highly unefficient choice, emphasis on highly, but at least you did have a choice.



Odyssey solved the "you need to be on this job with this equipment slot locked" issue, but then they thought it would have been too good and clearly they are not happy if they don't whip us players somehow, so they decided to add independent RP for each NM :-P
Jokes aisde: on one hand it does make sense, otherwise why spend time and effort killing Bumba V15 when you can get the same amount of RP killing an Ato1 NM V15, right?
On the other hand though this creates other issues, like different people wanting different NMs.


There is no easy solution to this issue, game design wise.
What I've seen suggested is for NMs of each tier to give different maximum amount of RP, with Bumba V15 giving waaaay more RP than say Procne V15.
Each NM of the same tier giving the same amount of RPs.
Items requiring different amounts of "overall RP" according to the tier they are connected to. So the Ato1 Items requiring less RP than Nyame set.

This system would've worked I guess but it wouldn't have been free from issues.
For instance it would've been more work for them (they would've had to create and balance RPs for 4 different tiers) and it would've meant that people would've found the "most efficient NM" to farm in each tier, and everybody would've spammed that, ignoring the rest.
Clearly they wanted to make so each NM was "important" and sought after, but without tying this to random drop rates but just RP.

Sooo... yeah, there is no easy solution.


Personally I apreciate they solved the Job/slot lock issue of Divergence, but if I were to pick which system I prefer between the two, I would no doubt give my vote to the Divergence one.
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By kairyu 2021-04-20 05:23:47
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Quote:
People who don't want to do "another content" to access part of the content they're interested in. This is highly debateable, but it can be seen with the fact that Sheol: Gaol requires people to play Sheol A/B/C to be granted access to Gaol itself. Previous content were independent, with 20hrs and 60hrs cooldowns respectively but no other action required to access the content. This also played better if you wanted to go PUG, as long as you had clearance to enter (for which you had to do nothing other than "wait") you were free to enter the content. Here you have to "farm" in advance (segments)

I guess I can understand the sentiment of what is being said here. The initial barrier to entry to access the content is debatably easy, but to repeat the content is longer.

Quote:
People who want to use the new content as a "Linkshell event". Could do that with Omen and Divergence, can't do it with Odyssey because of the 6people limit and because of the KI storage system

This, coupled with this;

Quote:
People who have a static but want to farm different targets. Like you want to upgrade Bunzi set, but other people in your static want Sakpata and others want Mpaca, for instance.

Leads me to believe that SE are trying to promote some level of community. If there’s one thing that is universally complained about it’s the fact that the FFXI community has gone down the toilet. This seems to be their way to try and get people to play together outside of their regular LS/friends again. Even if all that’s led to us shouts for “R15 tank, R15 BRD {Can I have it?}”. Is this an effective solution? By itself and long term, definitely not, but at this point I don’t there is much that will cause the community to un-splinter Itself.

Quote:
People who are more than willing to spend a lot of time in the long term goal of obtaining something, even more than they did with the previous content, but feel frustrated by seeing the goal so far, so much that sometimes they don't even want to bother with it (too much grind)

Valid I suppose, only thing is that you can farm segments in the meantime (which I’m sure some of these people are probably doing) Until you decide that maybe the grind is worth it.

Quote:
People who only can/want log max 2-3 times per week, and feel like this content "demands" they log every day, and even if they can it leaves a sour feeling of frustration/being left behind. Arguably this has a larger psychologycal impact than practical one, but still it's a widely shared point of complaint for many players.

This is one of those subjective things that’s hard to quantify if you ask me. As someone whose playtime has diminished/is erratic due to irl commitments (I haven’t even really been to a LS event in a long time), I still casually engage with this content and still feel like I’m working towards something. As for feeling left behind, maybe I’m just not that competitive of a player anymore but I still feel like I’m in the running, however what is the mindset of someone who only logs in 2-3 times a week? Either they would like to play more/be more competitive with their gearing but can’t for whatever reason, or are a more casual player and probably wouldn’t worry about this that much.

Quote:
Rank points should be allocatable to any piece of equipment within the tier.

There’s only one reason why this would be implemented in this way - to stop people from spamming the easiest V15 to rank all of their gear. One could argue that there should be some reward for doing NMs other than the one you’re working on, but given that SE seems to want people to engage in the community/with other players more it seems unlikely that this will be changed any time soon. Of course I could be wrong.
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By SimonSes 2021-04-20 05:29:44
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Fenrir.Melphina said: »
Quote:
People who have a static but want to farm different targets. Like you want to upgrade Bunzi set, but other people in your static want Sakpata and others want Mpaca, for instance.

This!! This right here is why this event sucks hard. It's not static friendly. It's almost like they expect us to PUG the atonement 3's for the NMs we want specifically, but then they went and made those atonement 3's so damn challenging on higher vengs that PUGS just won't be able handle them.

Well tbh JP pugs can handle them. I see plenty of V15 shouts on Bahamut (including Mboze and Bumba). But JP players always went for tactic over zerg to succeed and that pays off for this event. They are more coordinated and more used to strategic approach. Most NA community is spoiled by zergs avoiding mechanics and cant accept the fact that V15 Gaol NMs dont work like everything else in outdated content.
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 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2021-04-20 06:00:45
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I don't get why the entry item is a universal one. I think each tier should have a different cost. Little reason to go to cap a (useful) t1/t2 item when the entry is the same cost as doing a t3/t4 augment upgrade. Something like 500/1000/2000/3000 segments per tier. And think you can also get around the issue of t3 sets to work on/statics/etc. by increasing the trade back of RP into segments. Not that any of this will happen. But hey eventually we'll get to stock up moglophone 1's!
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-04-20 09:10:52
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SimonSes said: »
Fenrir.Melphina said: »
Quote:
People who have a static but want to farm different targets. Like you want to upgrade Bunzi set, but other people in your static want Sakpata and others want Mpaca, for instance.

This!! This right here is why this event sucks hard. It's not static friendly. It's almost like they expect us to PUG the atonement 3's for the NMs we want specifically, but then they went and made those atonement 3's so damn challenging on higher vengs that PUGS just won't be able handle them.

Well tbh JP pugs can handle them. I see plenty of V15 shouts on Bahamut (including Mboze and Bumba). But JP players always went for tactic over zerg to succeed and that pays off for this event. They are more coordinated and more used to strategic approach. Most NA community is spoiled by zergs avoiding mechanics and cant accept the fact that V15 Gaol NMs dont work like everything else in outdated content.

I have seen the shouts even on Asura. I was surprised to see JP shouting for Mboze, but everything you said is accurate.

The truth is, your average PUG JP player is much better than your average NA player in general. They do focus more on smaller details and using all job's skills, as opposed to superbuffing and killing as fast as possible. This is why you often see videos where they use things like BLM, SCH, NIN etc to exploit weaknesses and disrupt mechanics, where many NA players just stockpile support buffs. Zerg has a valid place in the community, though, so it's not a negative thing. But it's not always the best method.

They designed Gaol to be a mechanic-based party fight with varying jobs and no reliance on support jobs. Sounds like this was made specifically for what JP players like to do, strategize and coordinate. I wouldn't be surprised if this event came as a result of JP player feedback about how every fight was too bland and could be killed in two minutes. (Though, unsurprisingly, Bumba can be killed faster than that).
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By SimonSes 2021-04-20 10:21:22
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Zerg has a valid place in the community, though, so it's not a negative thing.

Oh, I dont think zerg is bad either. I'm just trying to say that using zerg for almost everything has consequence in lacking skill and coordination in fight that cant be zerged.
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By Guyford 2021-04-20 12:39:43
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Has anyone else noticed that Nyame head/hands/feet path B only get 1 more attack for their final rp level, nothing else? Skipping this last pretty useless rank could save you 15 kills.

Edit: more like 13.5 kills I read the wrong rp requirement.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-04-20 13:49:40
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That's like the difference between R13 - R15 Odnowa Earring +1. iirc, the last levels only gives you like 2-4 defense. Apparently, they made the -DT cap a couple levels before the cap for some reason. I know a few people who have left their Odnowa Earring +1 uncapped, because the extra defense was mostly nothing and it saved them money. But my OCD won't allow me to do that.
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By Matic 2021-04-20 14:11:30
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there's meds for ocd
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By Garretts 2021-04-20 14:17:04
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Matic said: »
there's meds for ocd

Altana Repaste +2
 Sylph.Gobbo
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By Sylph.Gobbo 2021-04-20 18:32:52
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Vaerix said: »
Sylph.Gobbo said: »

You gonna upgrade 5 Katanas to help your friends work on their entire set?

I don't know about you, but do you really see a reason to upgrade all 5 pieces of Ikenga? If so, please tell me why because I'd love to know the cor rng set isn't just a couple swap pieces at best...

Oh my fault, I thought we were talking about augmenting full sets. It's a great thing this doesn't apply for any of the other sets then either, my face sure is red.

My issue is segment allocation. If you are doing this with a group you aren't gonna be doing a single fight most likely, which means the amount of segments needed to finish yours will have doubled. Bumba is the only mob that doesn't have this issue because it's all jobs. Should really just let RP gained from an atonement be spendable across all mobs within that tier.
 Asura.Bigtymer
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By Asura.Bigtymer 2021-04-20 19:01:54
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SimonSes said: »
But JP players always went for tactic over zerg to succeed and that pays off for this event.

Not for Bumba, sir. Quite the opposite actually. At the moment, the only way to guarantee a clear on V15 is to zerg it, at least until Denounce is fixed. SE has accepted the Denounce broken as a bug, but until the fix comes, it's either zerg or cross your fingers.
 Asura.Hya
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By Asura.Hya 2021-04-20 20:21:26
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Sylph.Gobbo said: »
My issue is segment allocation. If you are doing this with a group you aren't gonna be doing a single fight most likely, which means the amount of segments needed to finish yours will have doubled. Bumba is the only mob that doesn't have this issue because it's all jobs. Should really just let RP gained from an atonement be spendable across all mobs within that tier.

All this would do is cause everyone to farm the easiest NMs in their respective tier. People are already burning out on fighting the same NMs for their specific desired gearset. Now imagine only ever fighting Dealan-dhe, Procne, Kalunga, and Bumba. How exciting would that be? If they were to follow this idea, there would need to be sweeping changes to the balance of the difficulty for each fight. The way the RP system is designed now at least gets you to branch out and play with different groups/people, for better or worse.
 Sylph.Ticktick
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By Sylph.Ticktick 2021-04-20 21:00:06
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should have been the gear RPed by a boss was determined by slot instead of set.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2021-04-21 01:17:24
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Asura.Bigtymer said: »
SimonSes said: »
But JP players always went for tactic over zerg to succeed and that pays off for this event.

Not for Bumba, sir. Quite the opposite actually. At the moment, the only way to guarantee a clear on V15 is to zerg it, at least until Denouncement is fixed. SE has accepted the Denouncement broken as a bug, but until the fix comes, it's either zerg or cross your fingers.
What is broken about Denounce exactely?
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By Felgarr 2021-04-21 02:53:50
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Asura.Bigtymer said: »
SimonSes said: »
But JP players always went for tactic over zerg to succeed and that pays off for this event.

Not for Bumba, sir. Quite the opposite actually. At the moment, the only way to guarantee a clear on V15 is to zerg it, at least until Denouncement is fixed. SE has accepted the Denouncement broken as a bug, but until the fix comes, it's either zerg or cross your fingers.
What is broken about Denounce exactely?

TLDR (while I'm not feeling well): Bumba does 2 abilities in a row in certain conditions, but if those 2 abilities are Denounce ...you can't survive.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/58020-Bumba-s-Denounce-is-sometimes-unsurvivable
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2021-04-21 03:13:10
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Oh, I still haven't started farming Bumba V15 hardcore.
Seen Deounce a few times only and those times it was an instant KO for all of us and not like the Saj'akka version.
So I guess that wasn't intentional eh.
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By Felgarr 2021-04-21 03:31:06
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Oh, I still haven't started farming Bumba V15 hardcore.
Seen Deounce a few times only and those times it was an instant KO for all of us and not like the Saj'akka version.
So I guess that wasn't intentional eh.

Yeah, I'm really surprised how rarely SE does even the slightest bit of sane error correction.(Simple things like, do a random thing twice, but make sure they don't repeat?)
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-04-21 06:52:33
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You're "surprised"... really? Come on.

This thing is super broken, should we fix it? Why? It's not like they will stop doing it if we don't.

I can believe mad, annoyed, irritated, disheartened, upset, bothered, disappointed, sad et al but not even a little surprised.

If there is no repercussions, no punishment, no downside, then seriously, why would they give it any urgency.
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By Lakshmi.Avereith 2021-04-21 07:40:13
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Reading all this just makes me glad I'm content to only have the gear and don't care about augmenting at all
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By Asura.Bigtymer 2021-04-21 09:19:19
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Asura.Bigtymer said: »
SimonSes said: »
But JP players always went for tactic over zerg to succeed and that pays off for this event.

Not for Bumba, sir. Quite the opposite actually. At the moment, the only way to guarantee a clear on V15 is to zerg it, at least until Denounce is fixed. SE has accepted the Denounce broken as a bug, but until the fix comes, it's either zerg or cross your fingers.
What is broken about Denounce exactely?

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/58020-Bumba-s-Denounce-is-sometimes-unsurvivable

As Mischief described in the accepted bug thread, during aura phase, Bumba's TP moves are used back-to-back (two TP moves instead of just one), and occasionally, Denounce will be the first of the two TP moves and when this happens, it hits everyone for ~150% of their max HP. When Denounce happens as the second TP move, it works "normally" (i.e., same as Sajj'aka's Denounce) in that it simply takes everyone to critical HP.

Whether Denounce happens first, second, or even at all during the aura phase is just random (even if your group can proc the aura very quickly, it might not matter as he gains access to Denounce the moment the chest heals up, so he can one-shot Denounce you right when the aura phase starts and there's nothing you can do about it). So at the moment, the only way to 100% win rate this fight is to zerg it within 4 minutes before the first aura phase - if you can do that, there's zero risk in getting the broken version of Denounce. But fortunately, that's laughably easy to do.
 
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 Asura.Aburaage
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By Asura.Aburaage 2021-04-21 11:16:58
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Yeah I can attest on how easy zerging V15 bumba is, it's like 2-3 min kills everytime with very little risk. Actually it's kinda weird how v15 bumba is far more easier than any v15 t3 we did.
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By Leviathan.Boposhopo 2021-04-21 11:30:04
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Figured I'd ask since we've been having trouble with this one fight and curious if something else works. We've been having issues with V15 Mboze where we just aren't perfectly topped off on HP and he will kill us with timber, or Rampart is down for like 1/2 a second and he just happens to Timber during that time. We've been going in PLD SAM COR GEO BRD WHM and everything seems fine till we get caught by a Timber. We survive Timber no problem most of the time, it just seems to sense a rampart timer coming down and likes to timber right then lol.

Have people found success with other setups? We were talking about maybe using a SCH for Regen V + Embrava to keep people alive or a SMN with Perfect Defense. Just wondering if anyone has had success with other strategies or if it's just a "this fight sucks, hopefully you get a win" kind of thing?
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By SimonSes 2021-04-21 11:34:21
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Is your WHM keep Regen IV on everyone (and have a set for it?)?
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