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Apoc dead?
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-10-02 21:33:55
Quote: If you are free to go with better WS such as Guillotine then it should make your overall DMG shine more.
Yes and no.
The extra haste you gained from cata was a larger increase in dmg than you are getting now going from cata to guillotine. Percentage wise that is.
 Fenrir.Mankey
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1323
By Fenrir.Mankey 2010-10-02 21:36:06
Odin.Sheelay said: Why even use cata when it is now possible to hit haste cap with gear alone. If you are free to go with better WS such as Guillotine then it should make your overall DMG shine more.
Keep in mind also that Guillo will grant you a higher tp return, making STP builds still plausible OAT scythe will pass Apoc if this was the case
 Phoenix.Fredjan
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2326
By Phoenix.Fredjan 2010-10-02 21:43:02
Asura.Magicide said: How's this for an Aftermath 5-hit build?
With Carbonara (+1 presumably) and /SAM this gives 45 Store TP, and if my calculations are correct 44 is the magic number for an Apoc 5-hit. Of course it's been possible for a while now, but this manages it without resorting to anything as ugly as an Askar or Aurum body (the ugliest feature is the Hoard Ring - and you can give that up in favor of something like White Tathlum+Chiv Chain, but at first glance that seems to give up more). Of course you have to Cata in all your Store TP gear, but I'd think a 5-hit would be theoretically powerful enough to make up for it. Retaining e.body and AF3+2 legs should greatly help the overall DOT.
You TP in more garbage to WS in less garbage.
Server: Asura
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By Asura.Magicide 2010-10-02 21:45:13
Odin.Sheelay said: Why even use cata when it is now possible to hit haste cap with gear alone. If you are free to go with better WS such as Guillotine then it should make your overall DMG shine more.
Keep in mind also that Guillo will grant you a higher tp return, making STP builds still plausible My first instinct is to say that while hitting the haste cap is nice, by itself it isn't the be-all end-all. Yes you can (in theory, using a body piece that to my knowledge nobody knows how to get yet) reach 26% without cata. Doing so, unfortunately, also ties you to 6 specific pieces of gear, only 2-3 of which you would ever choose to TP in for an Aftermath build. I'd need evidence that the difference between Guillotine and Cata is always going to be greater than the DOT lost in those pieces of gear to consider Cata obsolete.
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2821
By Odin.Sheelay 2010-10-02 21:46:19
OAT weapons are great and all, but lack what what 2 handed relics are best at: the highest DMG, the highest Accuracy and the occasional spike DMG.
You cold possibly develop a DA build to overcome the advantage given by the OAT weapons.
I believe the only reason SE gave out items such as Varangian Helm was to allow 2hand relic owners to stay on top thanks to the big acc bonus given by thei weapon alone.
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-10-02 22:06:21
Odin.Sheelay said: OAT weapons are great and all, but lack what what 2 handed relics are best at: the highest DMG, the highest Accuracy and the occasional spike DMG. Gotta get over that fixation on base damage.
Quote: You cold possibly develop a DA build to overcome the advantage given by the OAT weapons. No. There's this thing called haste, it's awesome, we use it a lot and you should too.
Quote: I believe the only reason SE gave out items such as Varangian Helm was to allow 2hand relic owners to stay on top thanks to the big acc bonus given by thei weapon alone. What? It's for one-hit weaponskills, not TPing.
[+]
Server: Odin
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By Odin.Sheelay 2010-10-02 22:11:05
Thanks for pointing out the obvious.
I wasn't talking about using Varangian helm for TP and as for DA gear there are several items granting DA bonuses which do not hold Haste slotw.
Server: Fenrir
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-10-02 22:13:31
Odin.Sheelay said: Thanks for pointing out the obvious.
I wasn't talking about using Varangian helm for TP What then? Apoc isn't going to be using Guillo, so acc on multihits is a nonissue.
Quote: and as for DA gear there are several items granting DA bonuses which do not hold Haste slotw.
There's exactly one slot where your gear decisions might change with a relic that would add DA, and that's the body. 2% DA from Askar isn't all that significant, and considering you'd gain more by moving to a 5hit with Aurum it's actually a nonfactor.
Server: Odin
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By Odin.Sheelay 2010-10-02 22:27:37
Pole grip + Bale Burgeonet2 + Brutal earring + Askar Korazin are 12% DA already though.
And as for Multihit WS the reason I mentioned varangian helm is because if you look at some of the latest WS Gear released from Abyssea none has Acc.
Varangian Helm, Heafoc mitts, Grim Cuirass are just some. Look at the +30 Accuracy bonus on the lvl 85 Apoc and they don't look too bad for multihit
Phoenix.Excelior
Server: Phoenix
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Posts: 2093
By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-02 22:37:57
Jesus. Why do people give a ***about 5 hit so much? If you arent samurai then stop being gimp. Reckoning is fine.
Bahamut.Serj
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2010-10-02 22:40:50
Phoenix.Excelior said: Jesus. Why are people do people give a *** about 5 hit so much?If you arent samurai then stop being gimp. Reckoning is fine.
Wat
Edit: saw you fixed it, lol.
Phoenix.Excelior
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2093
By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-02 22:42:04
Bahamut.Serj said: Phoenix.Excelior said: Jesus. Why are people do people give a *** about 5 hit so much?If you arent samurai then stop being gimp. Reckoning is fine. Wat Edit: saw you fixed it, lol.
Yea I looked back at what I wrote and was like wtf.
Bahamut.Serj
Server: Bahamut
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Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2010-10-02 22:43:33
Phoenix.Excelior said: Bahamut.Serj said: Phoenix.Excelior said: Jesus. Why are people do people give a *** about 5 hit so much?If you arent samurai then stop being gimp. Reckoning is fine. Wat Edit: saw you fixed it, lol.
Yea I looked back at what I wrote and was like wtf.
It made me chuckle xD Totally irrelevant to the thread, but w/e /shrug
Phoenix.Excelior
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2093
By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-02 22:46:11
Anyways back to the point of this thread; if the main reason you built apoc is to DD then you're just a bandwagon apoc-tard. Apocalypse's best application has always been tanking, and it will continue to be tanking until they nerf shadows. Apoc DDing isn't horrible, but it isn't a DD relic, and it isn't a DD job.
Server: Bahamut
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Posts: 4554
By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-10-02 23:04:18
No job but MNK is a DD job.
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-10-02 23:04:53
Odin.Sheelay said: Pole grip + Bale Burgeonet2 + Brutal earring Items you'd wear regardless, with the potential exception of Pole due to xhit. I already covered that.
Quote: + Askar Korazin are 12% DA already though. Decreasing returns.
Quote: And as for Multihit WS the reason I mentioned varangian helm is because if you look at some of the latest WS Gear released from Abyssea none has Acc. Sentry Belt, Anguinus Belt, Rager Ledelsens, the hachimakis, Praecis Gorget, Bale Belt, multiple pieces of AF3 off the top of my head. Try again.
Quote: Varangian Helm, Heafoc mitts, Grim Cuirass are just some. Look at the +30 Accuracy bonus on the lvl 85 Apoc and they don't look too bad for multihit tbh I could (and have) worked those into multihit sets without relics. Accuracy really isn't much of an issue now.
Bahamut.Serj
Server: Bahamut
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By Bahamut.Serj 2010-10-02 23:07:00
Bahamut.Raenryong said: No job but MNK is a DD job.
/flex
I'm getting there at least =S
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-10-02 23:09:05
Bahamut.Raenryong said: No job but MNK is a DD job. Oh man I lol'd. Well played.
Bahamut.Serj
Server: Bahamut
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By Bahamut.Serj 2010-10-02 23:10:00
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Bahamut.Raenryong said: No job but MNK is a DD job. Oh man I lol'd. Well played.
T_T
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-10-02 23:11:36
Not a dig at MNK, I'd level it myself but I just don't have time/care enough to deal with a fifth job. Unless I read it wrong that was a riff off of certain other poster's mentalities.
 Diabolos.Karisa
Server: Diabolos
Game: FFXI
Posts: 168
By Diabolos.Karisa 2010-10-02 23:14:17
i dunno when i see my friend dono smash his apoc as fast as a mnk im pretty damn impressed. i think the sexiest thing about it is the ability to heal your hp with your ws. thats just win to me
Server: Bahamut
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Posts: 4554
By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-10-02 23:14:30
Night is correct :p WARs and SAMs are happy to put down DRK etc but don't realise that if only TEH BEST DD is a DD job, it's not WAR or sam*...
*Yoichi potentially excluded!
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2821
By Odin.Sheelay 2010-10-02 23:15:13
You don't get my point, and listing a ton of items (some of which even hold the same armor slot and are not necessarily, if all, that good on a DRK WS build ) does not make your point better.
Somewhere you will need ACC though and my point was that relic Scythe helps cover that nicely whilst granting greater freedom over the remaining armor slots, even if it means equipping -acc armor.
It's ok to have different opinions though so I won't bother to try explaining you mine anymore.
However others may work out a better idea comparing and mixing both our viesws so who knows
Diabolos.Karisa
Server: Diabolos
Game: FFXI
Posts: 168
By Diabolos.Karisa 2010-10-02 23:16:00
Bahamut.Raenryong said: Night is correct :p WARs and SAMs are happy to put down DRK etc but don't realise that if only TEH BEST DD is a DD job, it's not WAR or sam*...
*Yoichi potentially excluded! I dunno.. im a war, sam and drk but i still favor sam if im not oclub zerging
Bahamut.Aiyana
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 235
By Bahamut.Aiyana 2010-10-02 23:18:10
Odin.Sheelay said: You don't get my point, and listing a ton of items (some of which even hold the same armor slot and are not necessarily, if all, that good on a DRK WS build ) does not make your point better.
Somewhere you will need ACC though and my point was that relic Scythe helps cover that nicely whilst granting greater freedom over the remaining armor slots, even if it means equipping -acc armor.
It's ok to have different opinions though so I won't bother to try explaining you mine anymore.
However others may work out a better idea comparing and mixing both our viesws so who knows
If you have a relic scythe, are you really going to be using multi-hit WS? Or more likely just mashing Cata back to back? (I remember reading somewhere that you could alternate Cata-Guillotine-Cata, but it's a little hazy.) So having accuracy gear in the WS phase is a moot point entirely if that is the case.
TPing in -acc isn't really a problem anymore either, but I would focus on Haste, your x-hit, then other crap.
Fenrir.Yinsha
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 263
By Fenrir.Yinsha 2010-10-02 23:19:09
Phoenix.Excelior said: Anyways back to the point of this thread; if the main reason you built apoc is to DD then you're just a bandwagon apoc-tard. Apocalypse's best application has always been tanking, and it will continue to be tanking until they nerf shadows. Apoc DDing isn't horrible, but it isn't a DD relic, and it isn't a DD job. Obviously Apocalypse is completely useless seeing as Aegis is 5000 times better. /endsarcasm
Fenrir.Snick
Server: Fenrir
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Posts: 906
By Fenrir.Snick 2010-10-02 23:22:13
Odin.Sheelay said: Somewhere you will need ACC though and my point was that relic Scythe helps cover that nicely whilst granting greater freedom over the remaining armor slots, even if it means equipping -acc armor.
No, I've discussed this many times with Nightfyre, and the conclusion is at 90 nobody will need accuracy.
Phoenix.Excelior
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2093
By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-02 23:27:39
Bahamut.Aiyana said: Odin.Sheelay said: You don't get my point, and listing a ton of items (some of which even hold the same armor slot and are not necessarily, if all, that good on a DRK WS build ) does not make your point better. Somewhere you will need ACC though and my point was that relic Scythe helps cover that nicely whilst granting greater freedom over the remaining armor slots, even if it means equipping -acc armor. It's ok to have different opinions though so I won't bother to try explaining you mine anymore. However others may work out a better idea comparing and mixing both our viesws so who knows If you have a relic scythe, are you really going to be using multi-hit WS? Or more likely just mashing Cata back to back? (I remember reading somewhere that you could alternate Cata-Guillotine-Cata, but it's a little hazy.) So having accuracy gear in the WS phase is a moot point entirely if that is the case. TPing in -acc isn't really a problem anymore either, but I would focus on Haste, your x-hit, then other crap.
You can alternate WSs only when at the haste cap or if you're lucky with double attack procs. Generally back to back Cata is optimal. Also, Cata hits harder than guil on average unless you have maxed Pdif and accuracy.
@ Snick
Mobs gain levels just as we do. New content mobs will require higher accuracy caps. To say that accuracy will no longer be needed is a bogus statement.
Leviathan.Niniann
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2010-10-02 23:33:08
Bahamut.Raenryong said: Night is correct :p WARs and SAMs are happy to put down DRK etc but don't realise that if only TEH BEST DD is a DD job, it's not WAR or sam*...
*Yoichi potentially excluded!
Be nice to Thorn, he has felines. :(
Fenrir.Snick
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 906
By Fenrir.Snick 2010-10-02 23:43:19
Phoenix.Excelior said: @ Snick
Mobs gain levels just as we do. New content mobs will require higher accuracy caps. To say that accuracy will no longer be needed is a bogus statement. At 99, nobody will need gear haste. Just you wait.
[+]
Pretty sure with the update Apoc is all but dead in the DD world, DRK shifting more towards a low man tank roll? I don't see it keeping up with 5hit OAT SAM 5Hit Amano or to any degree unless they allow Cata to break Haste Tier. Simple fact is, DRK can't keep up with WAR or SAM by just giving us increased Crit dmg....
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