Apoc Dead?

I don't see how apoc can ever be "dead". The fact it has a the double damage proc will make it out DD any other weapon in melee damage. I suppose the issue comes down to spike damage via WSs. I think we both know that drk has always been a ***DD compared to other jobs. DRK/SAM with apoc will probably always be better than most non-relic DDs. I don't think that will ever change just because the double damage procs are really a massive boost. +100% damage 10% of the time is +10% melee damage. Then you add in the few points of haste bonus and that's like +6% more to your overall. Also, the proliferation of double attack gear for jobs beyond warrior is really undermining the abilitys of war and /war. I think that you have nothing to fear about this job losing position. If you wanted to be the best DD you were playing the wrong job anyways.

Having said that, I still think drk is a much better tank than DD. Even before I completed apoc I used drk to tank pretty much everything and I found it to be so much stronger than PLD. Had they not nerfed spell-hate so badly drk would probably be the new "perfect" tank in almost every situation.

The double dmg proc isn't even a big deal. It's like a 5% proc rate.

5 double dmg procs on average out of 100 attacks isn't going to make that big of a difference.

That's a 5% increase to melee dmg. So let's say you're doing 50% DoT, 50% ws dmg, that'd come up to a 2.5% increase in total dmg

Magnus weapons would like to have a word with you Excelior. Seeing as how they proc double damage like 40% of the time.

Its to soon to claim any relic useless, we don't know what SE has planed for them, All we know they might add extra Aftermaths, and STR/Att to boost them or increase the Double Dmg Proc

Edit: Other than the selected rubbish and always have been, but even they could get buffed up 2 point where they strong

Oh, the haste bonus is massive. I'll do the math for you:

23% Gear
15% Haste
21% songs
10% hasso
Total: 68%

513-68% 164.2 Delay

25.5% Gear
15% haste
21% Songs
10% hasso
Total: 71.5%

513-71.5%= 146.2 Delay

164.2/60 = 2.73 seconds per swing
146.2/60 = 2.43 seconds per swing

2.43/2.73= .8901098
100%-89.0%= 11%

Cata aftermath is + 11% to all damage when buffed. If you add in Haste samba its more like + 20%

Guill at peak is only about 15% stronger than cata if that. The more defense, vit, the mob has the more it favors cata.

Clearly cata will always be the top choice here unless you can get maybe 24-25% haste on gear.

Lets compare this to the delay of a great katana:

513-71.5%= 146.2 Delay
450-68%(I think sam gets 23% haste now)= 144 Delay

As you can see, both weapons are now swinging at the same speed. Apocalypse is hitting MUCH harder.

Lets take a look at weapon skill impact

146.2 Delay = 2.43 seconds per swing
144 delay = 2.4 Seconds per swing

5 hits*2.43 12 seconds per weapon skill
6 hits*2.4 14.4 seconds per WS.

12/14.4 = .83333333 = 6 hit is 16.7% less WSs.

Overall damage factors:
Apocalypse swing speed = GKT swing speed
Apocalypse base damage > GKT base damage
Apocalypse has +10% more melee damage based on double proc

Formula for comparative damage:
X= Samurai Y= DRK

Melee damage:
YM= 1.10XM
XM= YM/1.10

WS damage:

YWS=.83XWS
XWS= YWS/.83

Overall damage:

YTD= Melee damage + WS damage
XTD= Melee damage + WS damage

YTD= 1.10(YM)+ .87(XWS)
XTD= (YM)/1.10 + (YWS)/.86

Ok so if you can get aproximate values for each per hit you can figure out for yourself a fairly reasonable representation.

The only thing I have not taken for account here is the impact of that +Hasso gear. Obviously this would be in favor of samurai more and may negate the delay difference between apocalypse and the GKT. Should that happen it would definately increase the overall for sam but would not change the impact of the double proc on apocalypse would still lead over the GKT.

Also, as I mentioned before: The proliferation of double attack gear will greatly undermine the ability for sam to effectively use /war. This means that the optimal sub job for sam will most likely become /drg with wyvern earring. This of course will also greaten the disparity between apocalypse and GKT delay. I dont think its time to start crying for drk just yet, but it would appear that the gap is growing between the two jobs.

Edit: The double damage proc is 10% on relics. I'm also not going to argue about magnus weapons because I haven't done the research into them. Also, don't let the double damage procs full you; they suck. Virtue stone weapons are > double damage mods. You see how useful they were?

You shouldn't talk about what you don't know. The magnus weapons do not suck. Especially if you have the dex/critrate/critdmg atma in Abyssea.

I'm not going to put a nail in the coffin of your Apoc, but my monk already can hold hate over Apoc drks.

The new SAM empyrean WS also does a certifiable ***ton of damage. It's almost HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE how much it does.

Wrong, it's 5%, not 10

NO ***? REALLY?

I wouldn't know anything about that. You mean when my monk hits 7 times in an attack round, it can crit more than once?!?! GET THE *** OUT!!!!!

First of all, capped gear haste is 25%, not 25.5. You need 26% haste in gear to cap, but you only get 25% haste from it. 25% haste is like 24 and a decimal figure

But let's say it is 25%. Your numbers are off. 2.5% haste increase from 77.5 to 80% (hard cap) is only 12.5% increase, so idk how you're getting 11% at 70% haste

Added haste/(100 - total haste) x 100

So your total is 71.5% there

2.5/(100-71.5)

2.5/28.5 = 8.77% increase, so again not sure where you're getting 11 from (and even then it's not even 2.5% increase because of what I said earlier about gear haste cap being 25%, not 25.5

Like I said, I wasn't saying the Apoc is dead. But with all jobs being to hit the gear haste cap much easier, I wouldn't put out the gil for an Apoc at this point in the game.

Considering you have to pay that much for it, and then you have to do all your trials. Because if you don't do the trials, it gets trumped hard.

Unfortunately numbers don't lie:

Magnus Scythe: 91 damage. +40% melee damage (100%*40%)

Apocalypse 130 damage. +10% melee damage (100*10%), +3% haste

Lets look at some weapons from the past:

Love Halberd: 60 damage, 50% OCC
Translation: Love halberd: 60 damage, +50% overall damage

Valkyrie's Fork: 95 damage, 3% DA

Ok lets look at the logic here:

Love halberd is 60 damage, and deals 50% more damage based on abilitys. This is clearly less damage than Valk fork which is 95 damage.

Ok let apply this to magnus scythe:

Magnus scythe is 91 damage, and deals +40% more melee damage based on abilitys. The base damage is LESS than apocalypse by a greater degree than love halberd was less than Valk fork. The additional ability is less than the ability of Love Halberd by a massive degree. 40% melee < 50% overall.

Conclusion: Magnus scythe's base damage is to Apocalypse what Love halberd's was to valk fork.

Magnus scythe's ability is less than a Jailer weapon.

A jailer weapon's ability + base damage was less than a normal weapon. Therefore:

A weapon with a less ability and simliar levels of base damage but MUST be less than a weapon of similiar levels of superior base damage. (The ability does not make up for the disparity in base damage)

Gear is not capped at 25% haste sir. The gear values of pieces of haste gear are rounded because they are in 1024ths form. The actual cap for haste gear is 25.64% or something simliar. When you use 26% haste gear you reach 25.64%. When you use 25% haste gear you actually get less than 25%. Do some research :/

Whoooosh

You should do some research. Yes, it's in terms of 1024, and the cap is 256/1024, aka 25%. And you need 26% in gear to reach the 256/1024 cap.

This is why the 1% haste neck is ***for a 25% haste gear mnk, because you're only gaining .39% haste from it.

Full usu or turban byakko's fuma along w/ black belt both put you at 252/1024, 24.61% haste, even though you have 25 in gear. Going to 26 in gear brings you to the cap of 256/1024, 25%

No, the cap is 25.5% that means that 1% haste over 25% is worth .5% haste. You're counting the values wrong.

Oh and my math was off on the increasing returns. I think I rounded too much. Anyways its roughly 9-10% from the aftermath. The concept of the math is correct regardless, errors happen.

Edit: Yea the doubel proc on relics is 10%. I mean I actually own one and I parse on a regular basis. I think I know what I'm talking about here.

Your first total should be 69%, not 68%.


23+15+21+10 = 69

Actually, TW is right.

The cap for gear haste is 256/1024, which is 25%.

Is there linked testing for this? For the past 6 years the haste cap has been understood to be 25.5ish% I have no doubt that you could be correct its just interesting that the value people always use is 25.5% Truthfully, I never do the math in 1024ths form so I'm prepared to admit that my values are always aproximations. I'm not trying to be 100% accurate, I'm trying to create a respectable and aproximate model to explain the situation and base a conclusion.

So, even if the math explained above is not 100% accurate it does aproximate the situation we're trying to explain.

Oh and whoever pointed out my error in the 68-69% haste, thanks. I was wondering wtf.

Nah, since it works on the n/1024 scale, it would be 256/1024, which is just 25% haste.

And here are some BG threads, with Kirschy's tests:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/68794-Haste-cap?p=2465189&viewfull=1#post2465189

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/52417-Yey!-Another-Haste-Topic!?p=1826551&viewfull=1#post1826551

Funny, because this is the absolute first I've EVER heard of it. All the math calculations I've ever seen have been based on the 256/1024

Lulz. That's funny. I remember asking a lot of people in Excellence and VoIume about it and they reenforced that the cap is 25.5%. I guess they are even more nooby than I originally thought. Well, thanks for the information. I concede I was wrong.

You're told to aim for a written 26% haste in gear, as in looking at your gear and adding up the total amount of haste. This is because some items don't give the exact amount they say. For example, 6% haste belts only give 61/1024 or 5.95% haste, Walahra Turban gives 50/1024 or 4.88% haste and Catastrophe gives 102/1024 or 9.96% haste.

Hmm, this is starting to get off topic a bit now with small details perhaps haha...Anyway, Apocalypse is top tier, a weapon that allows haste and drain, while having huge base dmg and accuracy native, a reliable dmg, 1 hit high acc weaponskill, it's intense! That relic is just as strong as it ALWAYS was...so I don't know why you think it's on the way out :). Everyone tries to comment on the lower than guillotine numbers on Catastrophe, but it's nowhere NEAR as bad as people claim. Since the ws is one hit, you can gear for lots of attack as relics are THIRSTY for it and you see dramatic improvements in power. So really, the ws dmg is hardly a big deal or something to be upset about, it's great! :) The weapon just shifts more damage to dot, so overall, you're doing much more damage than before the weapon while adding lots of survivability. A win-win, it's a beautiful weapon :). I'd suggest to maybe ask an owner to come to a pt with you and you can see it first hand, that's what I did for my relic once upon a time to decide ^^. No sense reading forum second hand/third hand/exaggerated/blatantly wrong info, of all that there is a ton, it's best to see it for yourself :). They mean to help you and I appreciate their effort, but it's always better to speak to those that have personal as possible info to help aid you :). Speaking of which, I'm lucky to have 4 friends on my server that own an Apocalypse, and they can almost keep the aftermath up constantly with buffs and full timing hasso. Combining that with drain spells and they're pretty mp efficient dd's. A very impressive weapon, I secretly sometimes wish an Amanomurakumo nazi like myself had one instead to help give my mages a break hehe. Since even full timing seigan I'm very hard on them :). I hope my info helps the op ^^, have a great day :D.

Use the points.
Or kick panda in the nuts.
Or rob Haha or one of his crafting mules.
Or find the hole Bringer hid under and sell his fat to a local soap company.
4 easy ways to get em !

How's this for an Aftermath 5-hit build?



With Carbonara (+1 presumably) and /SAM this gives 45 Store TP, and if my calculations are correct 44 is the magic number for an Apoc 5-hit. Of course it's been possible for a while now, but this manages it without resorting to anything as ugly as an Askar or Aurum body (the ugliest feature is the Hoard Ring - and you can give that up in favor of something like White Tathlum+Chiv Chain, but at first glance that seems to give up more). Of course you have to Cata in all your Store TP gear, but I'd think a 5-hit would be theoretically powerful enough to make up for it. Retaining e.body and AF3+2 legs should greatly help the overall DOT.

Another piece of info worth considering is that if you have a DNC in your party giving you a fully-merited Haste Samba, now that you can easily hit 374/1024 from Magic Haste w/o Soul Voice, with full time hasso you actually only need ~24% gear haste (including Aftermath) to maintain the overall haste cap full time.

The power of Apoc, to me, has never seemed to be just its ability to hit the haste cap, but its ability to do so with significant flexibility. That, plus the tanking options that it opens up, are primarily why the weapon appeals to me.

Disclaimer: I don't (yet) have an Apoc, but I'm working on one and am attempting to research the hell out of it to avoid the lolApoc trap.

Aurum Cuirass over Ebody so you can WS in less STP.

Why even use cata when it is now possible to hit haste cap with gear alone. If you are free to go with better WS such as Guillotine then it should make your overall DMG shine more.
Keep in mind also that Guillo will grant you a higher tp return, making STP builds still plausible