Sick Of Being Pushed Around

Welcome to the world of endgame, where high-level idiots will out-maneuver you for Herald's Gaiters for their single avatar SMN that has no merits and gear in a grand total of 5 slots...just for the e-peen.

Don't even THINK about trying to be honest or nice with the aforementioned idiots around, and for the record, I am referencing Siren endgame in the above example.

FYI: Herald's Gaiters is virtually the ONLY reason to do HNM as WHM, unless you are just plain masochistic.

Know how to play your jobs well? It doesn't matter.
Want to help other people? Won't score points with anyone that matters.
Have some dream of helping to make a good LS a great one? That won't matter either.

THe only thing that really seems to matter is how closely you can play to the letter of the linkshell's rules, rather than to the spirit of them. That and how well you can play LS politics.


Dantius, it's people who follow PT guidelines that narrow who make it hard for so many jobs to get merit and XP PTs. Well, that and the fact that around 80% can't play their job well enough to escape the same old 8-10k merit or XP PT mold (15-25k if you count the e-peen and flat out ignore breaks and what XPwatch is telling you).

For merits:

1. A good WHM can replace RDM in merit PT. Still need the refresh occasionally tho (full time Evoker's or Ballad II ~70% of the time is sufficient for a good WHM). SCH can also replace RDM or WHM. If you have SCH or WHM instead of RDM and are still not getting very good XP, then its not the fault of the party build.

2. You can burn merits with RDMs and SMNs too...not just BLMs. SMNs need heavy refresh tho, and few BRDs are willing to break away from the familiar to do it.

3. You don't actually need 4 heavy DD. 3 will work just fine. In fact, 2 DD plus BRD and healer (4 total) can break chain 100+ on Colibri. Its more on the BRD pulling than it is on the DD. Basically, a great BRD gives you more time to kill, rather than leaving you needing to kill very quickly to maintain a chain.

For XP:

1. SCH with RDM isn't a very useful combination in light of the Sublimation restriction on refresh. SCH and BRD or COR works better.

2. You don't necessarily need a RDM for enfeebles. WHM and BLM can both land them often enough to make a difference so long as their skill is leveled and they are carrying proper gear (i.e. elemental staves and AF body).

3. If you have a good DNC who knows how to work with a good healer, you can still get good XP without a refresher in certain camps (i.e. on colibri or spiders, but never on crawlers or beastmen). The DNC just needs to mainheal for 1-2 mobs while the mage rests back MP, then rebuild its TP.

4. You can avoid the tank bottleneck if you can convince at least 3 melee to sub /NIN and play smartly (i.e. no opening the fight with sidewinder on Colibri).

5. Regardless of if you are XPing or meriting, good RNG and DRG still outdamage good DRK, SAM, and WAR on piercing weak mobs. This is an important point since you spend so much time fighting Colibri.

I've read every post in this thread and by far Bungie's post has had the best advice in this thread thus far, if you don't like the way that he worded it, get over it. No one should HAVE to sell themselves as an e-honey to get free items, but that is the mindset of 90% (I've met maybe 3 in total that weren't whoring themselves out someway) of the females in HNMLS.

You can complain all you want(I'm sounding like a douche here I know) but it's not going to change anything, you can either do it yourself or find an actual respectable LS(There are some still out there).

@The XP/merits argument

Tem, the reason people make the cookie cutter XP PT setups(3 DD PLD BRDorCOR RDM) is because its been shown to be the best form of exp. You can throw a WHM or SCH in there, but what happens to Refresh for the PLD(Don't say ballad because good PTs will have Ballad2+refresh on PLD) and Haste if its a SCH?

"5. Regardless of if you are XPing or meriting, good RNG and DRG still outdamage good DRK, SAM, and WAR on piercing weak mobs. This is an important point since you spend so much time fighting Colibri."

Had to quote you here, a good SAM when fighting Colibri will be using Polearm and do more damage than a DRG(or RNG for that matter), its that simple. Just because piercing is not their main weapon doesn't mean they won't outparse a job that has it as theirs.

P.S. rating up a "***" comment that was left as a joke is even funnier than this thread.

"End-game LS, turning people into *** since 2001(or whenever the NA version was released)."

It does no such thing.

It turns *** into bigger, louder ***. That's all.

As for me, I've done some endgame here and there. All I've noticed is my increasing lack of tolerance for incompetency. That goes especially for those who have done something a few times and think they know everything there is to know about it, who won't listen to anyone else's advice on the matter. For those people, you can bet I'll make it loud and clear that they're simply doing it wrong. I will make it clear enough to the point where they might just call me an elitist ***, but you can probably tell it doesn't bother me.

Anyways, back on the matter. WHM replaces a RDM just fine for a merit party. However, SCH does not, simply due to haste. Yes you can chain infinity with a SCH. Yes you can get good exp with a SCH. However, there are (hopefully) many people who don't aim to be 'good'. (Hopefully), they aim for the best. No one cares if you can get chain1000. They(myself, for example) only care how fast you can get it, or how quickly your kill speed is, which is why DD DD DD BRD COR (RDMorWHM) is optimal for a merit party. SCH simply just doesn't belong. I would say a properly geared, merited and experienced SMN would be better than a SCH. Between a DNC and a SCH, I'd probably take the DNC also.

lol @ 20k/hr merit parties

^this. My first post was more of the 55-74 guideline but as you said in merits WHM can effectively replace RDM if they play correctly. WHM/DRK for stun+flash(Protip: good PTs happen on mamools) is great helping kills go a lot smoother.

and lol@20k/hr indeed.

Nicki Minaj feat. Lil Wayne.

Quoting Kazen:

I've read every post in this thread and by far Bungie's post has had the best advice in this thread thus far, if you don't like the way that he worded it, get over it. No one should HAVE to sell themselves as an e-honey to get free items, but that is the mindset of 90% (I've met maybe 3 in total that weren't whoring themselves out someway) of the females in HNMLS.

You can complain all you want(I'm sounding like a douche here I know) but it's not going to change anything, you can either do it yourself or find an actual respectable LS(There are some still out there).

@The XP/merits argument

Tem, the reason people make the cookie cutter XP PT setups(3 DD PLD BRDorCOR RDM) is because its been shown to be the best form of exp. You can throw a WHM or SCH in there, but what happens to Refresh for the PLD(Don't say ballad because good PTs will have Ballad2+refresh on PLD) and Haste if its a SCH?

"5. Regardless of if you are XPing or meriting, good RNG and DRG still outdamage good DRK, SAM, and WAR on piercing weak mobs. This is an important point since you spend so much time fighting Colibri."

Had to quote you here, a good SAM when fighting Colibri will be using Polearm and do more damage than a DRG(or RNG for that matter), its that simple. Just because piercing is not their main weapon doesn't mean they won't outparse a job that has it as theirs.

P.S. rating up a "***" comment that was left as a joke is even funnier than this thread.


The only thing cookie cutter builds have been shown to do is make it easier for people who aren't very good to get PTs. Those setups simply replace skill and efficiency with gads of refresh and extra damage dealers. Similar to the way some LSes need 25 to kill Tiamat while others can do it with 10.

Why do you need that much refresh on an XP PT PLD? PLD shouldn't be spamming MP if its an XP PT and he is /WAR. He just needs to maintain hate. That isn't "the best" setup...its a waste of refresh and PT spots. Fights shouldn't even be LASTING long enough for him to burn through more than 1 cure and 1 flash. Considering most PTs take a break long enough to rest MP back every 30 minutes or so on average, he should be able to manage just fine with single refresh. Especially with a WHM who does his job well.

Good polearm SAM > average DRG or RNG. However, a very good DRG or RNG with excellent gear (i.e. full haste plus WS setups on DRG) can break 5k regularly on WSes and will embarass a polearm SAM on parse with no polearm merits in merit PTs. I haven't parsed many level capped XP PTs here, but I have a hard time believing very good DRGs and especially very good RNGs would get decently outparsed over a series of PTs on the same piercing weak mobs. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see your average DRG or RNG outparsed tho.

Fully agree on the SCH issue in the "very best" merit setup. However, if you are doing a pickup PT (ugh) then chances are you will get somebody who is bad enough to bring the PT down from "best" to "good".
My best merit XP ever was 3 DD, BRD, COR and WHM (me): 225k in seven hours, breaks included, on Mammools.

EDIT
Kazen again:

^this. My first post was more of the 55-74 guideline but as you said in merits WHM can effectively replace RDM if they play correctly. WHM/DRK for stun+flash(Protip: good PTs happen on mamools) is great helping kills go a lot smoother.


You are kidding, right? Please tell me you are...

100% on the money . Alot of people have posted it , but i will repeat it : it about being greedy , incompetent or even scared to explore . RDM will cause you to get Job Lock Syndrome , JLS . No matter how well you play it (or poorly) , no matter your gear , your merits , your Skill Lvs(capped vs uncapped) . If you have RDM and 3 other Jobs @ 75 , be prepared to come RDM . I stopped putting my RDM AF in Storage cuz 90% of the time i come RDM .
I have spent almost 6 years Playing . the first 5 years were heavily dedicated to SMN . Getting relic , getting HQs , Meritting . All for not . I spend more time on RDM then SMN and BLM combined . It gets frustrating at time , especially since i feel my PLaying strength lie in the job i 1.) have the most play time in 2.) Have the best gear for 3.) Enjoy playing the most . Some one is goin to play better and harder on a job they WANT to play vs a Job the are TOLD to play .
But this all goes with being a LS member vs a LS leader. Thats really all the positive advice i can give with starting to be negitive .

Ok, so having the best setup(which IMO is 3 DD BRD RDM PLD 55-74) with people with skill will be less effecient than whatever setup your going to come at me with where people are skilled?

I fail to see how stating that some LSes can kill Tiamat with 25 and others need 10 helps this thread at all. Wow you can kill an HNM with less people, I feel its better to do it with 18 anyway instead of taking a 30-1hr fight and dragging it out longer than neccesary.



Sorry I feel that a PLD with Refresh and Ballad so they're able to spam flash and cure more than themselves, is better than one without. You obviously feel differently on that situation.

Also my SAM>DRG thing on Piercing was based towards the 55-74 stretch of exp, maybe I should have been more specific.


Lastly. No, I'm not kidding. Think about it if you're a career WHM and don't use Flash in exp, I'm just going to stop posting altogether.