Make Paladin Great Again

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Make Paladin Great Again
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By Nariont 2019-12-02 14:54:28
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While i agree that this alone is enough and itd need a full overhaul, its enmity is actually quite poor compared to run even if single target, not even factoring dd ability adding to hate that run can again do better it lacks a lot of spike abilities and its only spell for hate is flash and cure cheats. Aoe tagging its even worse as it has no good self hate move sides cure cheats which are split amongst targets anyway compared to run simply popping a foil/one of its mant JAs.

End of the day i doubt SE will add anything that fundamentally changes the job, least they can do is make it better at what its supposed to be able to do.
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By Shiva.Malthar 2019-12-02 15:05:34
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PLD is getting more enmity and more defense.
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By Asura.Tydis 2019-12-02 16:06:17
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Shiva.Malthar said: »
PLD is getting more enmity and more defense.
That would be the SE thing to do.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 16:19:46
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
DirectX said: »
Asura.Kusamotu said: »
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Make atonement AOE (and also suck less)
Doesn't hitting mobs ruin super tanking?

Super tanking doesn't require hate management at all. Since hate can't be pulled off of the super tank.

But for situations where you have to have hate on multiple targets (ambuscade for example), one of the weaknesses pld has is AoE hate generation
What was it back in the day where you couldn't touch any mobs because then they'd eat healers etc? Was it just because we didn't have /BLU and ability to keep hate on loads of mobs at once?

It still feels like mobs which have taken some damage when a tank is super tanking are more likely to go for a healer than mobs which haven't been touched though, have experienced this in Ambus with poor PLD tanks.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-12-02 17:15:08
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DirectX said: »
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
DirectX said: »
Asura.Kusamotu said: »
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Make atonement AOE (and also suck less)
Doesn't hitting mobs ruin super tanking?

Super tanking doesn't require hate management at all. Since hate can't be pulled off of the super tank.

But for situations where you have to have hate on multiple targets (ambuscade for example), one of the weaknesses pld has is AoE hate generation
What was it back in the day where you couldn't touch any mobs because then they'd eat healers etc? Was it just because we didn't have /BLU and ability to keep hate on loads of mobs at once?

It still feels like mobs which have taken some damage when a tank is super tanking are more likely to go for a healer than mobs which haven't been touched though, have experienced this in Ambus with poor PLD tanks.
You can't super tank in ambuscade. Just to be clear, when I say supertank I mean tanking multiple mobs by relying on being agro'd by them and not actually on the mob's hate lists. So that no amount of curing from the healers will accumulate any enmity.

In this situation, anyone touching a mob would immediately get hate, get owned, and need cures. The healers would cure, and with the target having acted on the mob and got on their hate list, this would generate enmity and then the mob would go for the healer.

But in Ambuscade everyone is on all mobs hate list by default. So you can't just agro and let the mobs sit there on the tank. The tank has to maintain enmity on all targets.

And PLD has almost nothing to maintain hate on multiple targets with.(And recent discoveries have given even cure enmity a kick in the nuts there) You have to be /BLU, and then specifically be casting the AoE enmity spells. RUN will do it on accident just spamming foil and the occasional JA. So your poor PLDs probably didn't understand the enmity mechanics in ambu, and thought they could kick back and supertank.

Outside of Ambuscade it would depend on where the dmg on the mob came from. if the mob is at 99% from reprisal spikes, then it's still only agro'd and will stay glued to the PLD till someone acts on it. If someone acted on it directly, then the PLD would need to tag it and then maintain enmity. So in the latter case your statement would be true.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 17:37:30
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Oh, of course yeah, that's why I saw it in Ambu. But outside ambu you can supertank without being on the hate list, and if they are tagged then it causes that same problem of them then being able to go for the healer?
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-12-02 17:56:22
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If they are tagged and the tank doesn't maintain enmity afterwards, or the tank wasn't the one to tag them, then you get issues when the healers cure them.
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By Sylph.Brahmsz 2019-12-02 19:05:14
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Felgarr said: »
No disrespect, but why do folks want job updates, new content and ability enhancements, but at the end of the day, WANT NOTHING to be MUST HAVE?
Look, how is Burtgang being today a sorta-must-have, or as a future-must-have different from an Epeo RUN TODAY? Come on.

Because Quality of Life changes through updates helps the broader player base, ie, your average and/or casual player who doesn't want to go all out. Also, Epeolatry while a game changing weapon for Rune doesn't necessarily mean that it is required to do the job correctly. Epeolatry simply gives the Rune more breathing room and gear possibilities.

Asura.Eiryl said: »
Do you guys not realize that PLD is good enough at enmity and survival. The only thing that keeps it from being used is that RUN has debuffs has (better)party buffs and is a DD that just happens to be unkillable.

Sub blu for all intents and purposes they're identical. As a super tank, as a single target tank, as /blu aoe holder, they're interchangeable.

Doing anything to the 2 things it's already adequate at, accomplishes nothing. No amount of shield skill, enmity+ , new spells/ja's are really going to do anything. To have any affect at all it needs a complete rework (not just the job, the game) Or obviously, nerf run, but apparently that's off the table these days and broken is the norm.

I would like to add that Paladin is perfectly fine with initial (and depending on ability use *sustained*) enmity generation via Sentinel, Rampart, Fealty, Shield Bash, and Palisade.

Rune Fencer achieves enmity generation (among other aspects) through different means and I honestly don't think the two should be made virtually identical just because they shine in different areas of combat.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-12-03 02:44:11
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Well, curaga, PLD is fixed boys.

Not even enmity or defense, but accession for cure. They definitely nailed exactly what PLD needed.

It's like they've been reading all the posts and you got exactly what you asked for, how amazing is that?
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By Nariont 2019-12-03 02:47:29
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well it got the bst/sch treatment, least it wasnt the NIN one
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By Valefor.Omnys 2019-12-03 04:24:11
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Sylph.Brahmsz said: »
The only thing that keeps it from being used is that RUN has debuffs has (better)party buffs and is a DD that just happens to be unkillable.

Sub blu for all intents and purposes they're identical. As a super tank, as a single target tank, as /blu aoe holder, they're interchangeable.

Almost seems sarcastic. RUN is a generally superior tank, while being a much better DPS and isn't too locked to a subjob. They bring all the best utility and options independent of subjob.

Paladin is roughly a 2010 tank in a 2020 world, and I only say 2010 because that's roughly when Ochain happened. In playstyle, it hasn't much changed in longer than that, except for pld/nin fading away.

Until Paladin gets some real mechanics updates, it's generally inferior across the spectrum of uses. RUN/BLU is simultaneously a better tank, utility, and DPS than sword/board pld/war, especially if the mob isn't facing the PLD. (off tank, Co tank, enmity flop)
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By DirectX 2019-12-03 04:29:17
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
Well, curaga, PLD is fixed boys.

Not even enmity or defense, but accession for cure. They definitely nailed exactly what PLD needed.

It's like they've been reading all the posts and you got exactly what you asked for, how amazing is that?
Just what you need when using RNG BLM or SMN damage!
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By Sylph.Brahmsz 2019-12-03 05:40:54
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Valefor.Omnys said: »
Sylph.Brahmsz said: »
The only thing that keeps it from being used is that RUN has debuffs has (better)party buffs and is a DD that just happens to be unkillable.

Sub blu for all intents and purposes they're identical. As a super tank, as a single target tank, as /blu aoe holder, they're interchangeable.

Almost seems sarcastic. RUN is a generally superior tank, while being a much better DPS and isn't too locked to a subjob. They bring all the best utility and options independent of subjob.

Paladin is roughly a 2010 tank in a 2020 world, and I only say 2010 because that's roughly when Ochain happened. In playstyle, it hasn't much changed in longer than that, except for pld/nin fading away.

Until Paladin gets some real mechanics updates, it's generally inferior across the spectrum of uses. RUN/BLU is simultaneously a better tank, utility, and DPS than sword/board pld/war, especially if the mob isn't facing the PLD. (off tank, Co tank, enmity flop)
Uh... Directx wrote that, not me.
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By DirectX 2019-12-03 05:45:42
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I didn't write that anywhere wth?
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By Sylph.Brahmsz 2019-12-03 05:51:48
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Well I certainly didn't... Not sure why my name is quoted. lol

*Edit* Was Eyril.
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By DirectX 2019-12-03 05:58:35
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I'm even more confused why you associated it with me personally when you can read up and see I never wrote it.
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By Sylph.Brahmsz 2019-12-03 06:01:51
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Cuz its early and I haven't had my coffee.
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By Valefor.Omnys 2019-12-03 07:35:45
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Sylph.Brahmsz said: »
Uh... Directx wrote that, not me.

My bad, highlighted a segment I wanted to quote and clicked quote.

Thought it would pull his name, but it pulled yours. His quote box in your post. Sorry lol
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By Shiva.Mlrlohki 2019-12-05 01:52:17
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Well, AOE cures and banishga should help matters for hate at least. Better than just the Scythe tweak for DRK (though Scythe does need it bad).
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