Make Paladin Great Again

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Make Paladin Great Again
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-05-10 09:29:00
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Valefor.Ophannus said: »
PLD had the advantage back then of the insaneness that was having both Aegis and Ochain. Problem was Ochain and Aegis lack Shield Skill, which makes them not so great when fighting things like i130 mobs. I guess RUN also lacked a lot of job specific equipment (relic armor, relic weapons, empy gear, etc)
Actually, Ochain is still the best physical def shield even without any ilvl skill. Outstrips Priwen+Reprisal's dmg reduction as monster level rises and Priwen can't maintain a decent blockrate even with its reprisal bonus.

The problem is that magic damage is so prevalent, and is typically the tank buster. And once you put on Aegis, your block rate hits the floor. So PLD suffers on mobs that deal both dmg types frequently.
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By Valefor.Ophannus 2019-05-10 09:58:41
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Damn, so PLDs still rocking that level 85 ***? I remember getting Ochain past 85 was such a huge hassle. And also the defense on it was quite low so the damage absorb supposedly wasn't that great compared to i119 shields even accounting for the block rate.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-05-10 10:05:15
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Lvl 90. lvl 85 Ochain is a plain old size 3 shield. Lvl 90 it changes to size 6 and gets the ridiculous block rate. And teh issue was less the def and more the size 6 shield base dmg reduction on block. Was only 40% base, +20 from def. so -60% before SDB. 66% after. COmpared to more modern shields that have like 85%+ reductions. Even Aegis is -81% on block.

There was a time when other shields with ilvl skill were edging in on Ochain, And Priwen could have been considered superior for a time due to having not quite as high block rate, but much higher dmg reduction on block.

But as monster levels continued to rise, the block rates for newer shields started to drop off, and Ochain rose again.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-05-10 10:29:21
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PLD is still the unmovable wall that shall never be defeated. Burtang + Aegis along with it's gear sets makes it damn near impossible to kill. The thing is, we don't need that level anymore being hard to kill is fundamentally just as good as being nigh impossible to kill when sufficient support is present. For the tanking slot we start looking at other things like dynamic hate generation, AoE hate generation and even some DPS output. Several of our tanks are both super PLD and super RUN and while they never die on PLD, RUN is just so much easier for them to grab and hold massive amounts of enmity. Poisonga + Foil is just that epic of a combo. Giving PLD a self cast high hate spell like foil would go a very long way towards making it more viable.
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By soralin 2019-05-10 11:28:04
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I completely agree. Paladin should just get Foil in the 90s, that would be a big step forward to closing the gap with Run.

Damage wise paladin really isn't that far behind Run as /war spamming Savage Blade if you gear for it.

But Run just doesn't have to miss nearly as many beats as paladin does to AoE tank.
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By Taint 2019-05-10 14:31:32
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soralin said: »
I completely agree. Paladin should just get Foil in the 90s, that would be a big step forward to closing the gap with Run.

Damage wise paladin really isn't that far behind Run as /war spamming Savage Blade if you gear for it.

But Run just doesn't have to miss nearly as many beats as paladin does to AoE tank.


I think you really underestimate RUNs DPS. 2hander and subjob alone are huge advantages. Add that to one of the best DPS weapons R15 lionheart plus great TP gear and you have a potent DPS that can tank as well as PLD.
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-05-10 15:01:23
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A good RUN DD is probably 4th best DD in-game behind War, Drk and Sam. No way a PLD is anywhere close. I'd bet my account on that ***. RUN is miles ahead.
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-05-10 15:16:15
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Hard disagree on that first sentence.
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By eliroo 2019-05-10 15:37:28
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Quote:
A good RUN DD is probably 4th best DD in-game

I laughed irl.
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By Shichishito 2019-05-10 15:57:44
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the op damage advantage of RUN aside, the current tank meta favors AoE tanking and resisting countless crippling debuffs and magic damage for a couple of years by now.

while PLD might be a little better in tanking physical damage both tanks can take the hits in most content. PLDs "advantages" are self cures that usually aren't good enough to selfsustain and even if they are your party still needs a main healer for debuff removal and party cure.
PLD is also a bit better at super tanking if it doesn't require kiting.

i never understood how this situation could be considered balanced.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-05-10 16:00:26
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Shichishito said: »
I never understood how this situation could be considered balanced.

By understanding that absolutely nothing in the game is balanced.
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By eliroo 2019-05-10 16:02:18
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The game has gotten by being having imbalance specific to certain fights, encounters and situations.

The problem is RUN fits the Imbalanced meter on every situation you'd consider.
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-05-10 16:05:32
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Shichishito said: »
PLD is also a bit better at super tanking if it doesn't require kiting.

Honestly dude I gotta disagree with this, man. PLD used to be best for taking Physical damage, but Epeo + good Phalanx set literally puts Burt pld to shame. Well geared Run will take less damage than PLD. I'm willing to prove that anyway I can.

Parrying and without Parrying, I still believe RUN takes all damage better than PLD. Parrying is just cheating tbh. But I'll love to prove this to everyone if it's needed. But I'll stand by what I say on this.

However, if RUN gets full dispelled then I'd say PLD takes less damage, as RUN relies on buffs to be sturdy, but only in that rare occasion.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-05-10 16:07:34
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They'll both take zero or near zero. The key to who is better is parry. and turms/parry is broken as hell if RUN can engage something.
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By eliroo 2019-05-10 16:10:03
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I don't know a well geared PLD to compare with but that just doesn't sound right because the PLD can still block while super tanking and they still get Phalanx and Cocoon just like a RUN would.

Also can RUN cap Cure potency received? PLD caps it in their turtle set which makes cureskins pretty durable on them too. Though there isn't really any content that would really stress that.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-05-10 16:13:48
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I'm reasonably certain every job can cap received. Only really have to gimp your gloves slot for 1 second. Burmete and Gishdubar get you +23% and there are still rings/necks to chose from. (ear in ambuscade is 10%!)

https://www.ffxiah.com/search/item?&jobs[]=4194304&description=received#adv
 Asura.Shiraj
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-05-10 16:17:40
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RUN can gear for Cure pot received, but I wouldn't say it's needed tbh. When I tank on RUN and actually tank, not hybrid or something I literally take 0-5 damage from almost everything physical. Most, if not all PLDs I see take way more - around 20-40. And that's with Burt.

While PLD can still Block, RUN doesn't need to. As long as RUN has its buffs, it's unkillable. 99% of content I've tanked, excluding Master trials all a RUN needs is a Regen 4/5 and that's enough for cures. Wave 3 is probably only content where cures do help/needed for supertanking all mobs + mega boss.

Also PLD rarely blocks like it used to. If PLD had same block rate as it used to before iLvl, then I'd 100% say PLD is better than RUN for physical damage.
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By Asura.Highwynn 2019-05-10 16:31:45
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How does Run take 0-5 damage from physical when they can't block? What have they gotten that gives them that much durability since it was released (back then they were a meme job)
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By Cerberus.Hokuten 2019-05-10 16:34:38
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Regardless of Cure potency received or damage taken, I don't think it's actually that hard to keep either job alive. Both tanks are plenty sturdy to work through content. The issues is: what else does it bring to the table?

RUN brings a massive DPS differential.
RUN brings better hate tools.
RUN brings better party damage mitigation and better tools for endgame mob "*** you" mechanics.
RUN gear pool is amazing at supporting a wide range from super tanky to strong DD.

I see two options really.
1) try to bring PLD up to par on all of RUNs advantages
OR
2) make it exceptional at a few of those categories to the point where it's clearly better than RUN for those categories, while leaving RUN on top for the others.

Trying to be faithful to what a PLD is, I don't think option 1 is a great idea. I'd really like to see if become the master at reducing overall danger to the party/alliance. Better alliance wide damage mitigation for physical and magical damage. Perhaps some mechanism to help the alliance deal with status effects similar to sacrifice that whm has. Let it be the holy knight that defends it's companions.
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By eliroo 2019-05-10 16:36:24
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Just to clarify, I wasn't saying cure potency was required. Was just speaking from a general "Who can take damage better" in a super tank scenario.

And yeah I guess PLD isn't blocking as much anymore, I'm not sure how the current blocking w/ ochain compares to the extra DT on Epeo.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-05-10 16:37:56
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Here is the absolute only way to fix pld. Nerf RUN. RUN is better at absolutely everything. unquestionably. even supertanking. It should NOT be a top tier DD either.

Here's the only realistic way to buff PLD. Make it a luopon/bard. "If pld in party all party members have 50% DT and huge meva and maxhp+ and status resist+"

That won't fix pld, but it will give a reason to pick pld instead of settle for pld.
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By Cerberus.Hokuten 2019-05-10 16:41:00
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eliroo said: »
And yeah I guess PLD isn't blocking as much anymore, I'm not sure how the current blocking w/ ochain compares to the extra DT on Epeo.

Honestly here, I think PLD comes out ahead but not by much and for sure not by any amount that would actually matter.

0-30 dmg(with shield blocks) vs 10-25 dmg in the grand scheme of things doesn't matter at all.
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-05-10 16:41:53
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Asura.Highwynn said: »
How does Run take 0-5 damage from physical when they can't block? What have they gotten that gives them that much durability since it was released (back then they were a meme job)

I made a video demonstrating RUN supertanking. I showed the techniques used.

Embolden Pro 5 with Cocoon and epeolatry and Phalanx makes RUN a monster. 30-45min+ Embolden Protect 5 is amazing. especially paired with other spells.

RUN was a meme when it first came out, but now it's a machine.

I was taking 0-10 damage using epeolatry and without using Embolden Protect 5. So if all things are used together you take very little damage.

I'd honestly love to start playing PLD again, it was a good job before I started playing RUN.
I'd agree with buffing the tanking aspects such as enmity tools and stuff, but don't let PLD DD like a RUN. It kinda ruins the nature of the job.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-05-10 16:46:50
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PLD can still get upwards of 70%~ block rate with Ochain on lvl 150 mobs.(this takes some gearing towards blockrate, mind you.) And hit 100% during palisade, short lived though that is.

68% PDT + an Ochain shield block(66%) is a -89.12% dmg reduction. Phalanx to 0 dmg.

The problem is that PLD often doesn't get to wear Ochain. Cause magic dmg is often more dangerous, and very prevalent. And Aegis' block rate is ***due to SE's *** decision to not ilvl it. I mean, the block rate would be bad even if it was ilvl. But not as bad.

When able to focus on physical dmg, PLD is extremely tough. But mob level punishes PLD's defenses in a way that RUN doesn't have to deal with. It's pretty damn unfair that PLD's defensive skill, shield blocking, struggles horrifically as mob level rises, yet inqartata just doesn't give a ***. (I'm NOT saying I want this changed or nerfed for RUN. I play it too. But throw PLD a bone here.)

It would be nice if PLD had something like Turms hands though. Occasionally, I still can't believe they even added something that broken to the game. If PLD recovered 100 HP per block... jeez. Well, except when wearing Aegis. Then it'd be useless. /tableflip
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By Asura.Highwynn 2019-05-10 16:50:35
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Damn those Turm Hands are nasty. I think they are buffing job monthly, so we should see PLD get buffs soon
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-05-10 16:53:07
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Yeah it sucks so bad. Ochain is pretty good, but yeah terrible the fact you can't use for 90% of fights or you get smashed.

But imo, I think Turms did break the game. They are literally the most broken piece of gear in the game. RUN has insane Parry rate and regening 100 hp per parry is so broken. I love it, but it's broken.
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By Asura.Highwynn 2019-05-10 16:53:20
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BTW is NIN ever used as a tank? They got a ton of shadows now with Utsu San, or does aoe magic and lack of self heal/damage mitigation hurt them?
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-05-10 16:53:34
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Nothing they do to PLD can raise it to be competitive with RUN.

Give it 9999 health, complete and absolute immunity to all magic, 100% uptime invincible. and RUN is still better.

If pld had a higher enmity cap making it impossible to pull hate off of, that would might do it.
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By Nariont 2019-05-10 16:54:45
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Asura.Highwynn said: »
BTW is NIN ever used as a tank? They got a ton of shadows now with Utsu San, or does aoe magic and lack of self heal/damage mitigation hurt them?

lack of ways to deal with adds alone kills it as a possible tank

That said if its a single target deal like say omen or some ambus, it can work fine, but those are few in this game
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-05-10 16:57:11
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Asura.Highwynn said: »
BTW is NIN ever used as a tank?

Nin is sadly not used much. It can main tank Omen. but Utsusemi is kinda useless for tanking the majority of times. Most TP moves or spells are AoE and wipe shadows. Nin has amazing M.eva so that's a bonus, but Nin has to DD to hold hate as Voke and Shadows are main hate tools which won't keep up with current DD zerg meta.

Nin is mainly a solo job which is kinda cool.
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