Make Paladin Great Again

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Make Paladin Great Again
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 Cerberus.Hokuten
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By Cerberus.Hokuten 2019-05-07 16:28:33
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*EDIT* Added some of the community ideas.

Hey all, I wanted to try to start a constructive(and hopefully fun) conversation around Paladin. It might be too late, but with job updates incoming at some point this year, I was hoping to get a compilation of decent ideas to post on the official forums.

I feel like Paladin is in a tough spot currently. With the game's evolution and the dominance of RUN, it doesn't leave many scenarios where you'd actually want/need a PLD. Arguably RUN is preferable to PLD for just about all content.

I have both jobs geared decently well, and in my experience RUN brings so much to the table, that I find very few instances where I can justify bringing PLD instead.

Arguably...
  • RUN offers better damage

  • RUN offers better group magic damage via gambit and rayke

  • RUN offers superior hate control

  • RUN offers acceptable damage mitigation (in some cases better, on par, or slightly worse than PLD - but still all to acceptable levels)

  • RUN offers better overall party damage mitigation


My goal isn't to try an match all of these elements, but to try to provide PLD a bigger niche to fill. Hopefully its enough to justify using it on more content.

Here are my proposals. Please consider them independently of each other. I'm not suggesting that they all be implemented together or even each bullet point within being implemented.

Fix shield block rate
  • Allow reforging of Aegis and Ochain with shield skill+. RUN gets enhanced Parry Skill on their weapon. Why can't PLD get Shield Skill on their best shields. Not sure how much would be necessary for balance.

  • Implement a job trait similar to Inquartata that grants a fixed +block rate, with similar gear enhancements.

  • consider block+ gear before calculating Reprisal Mod. Credit Martel

  • Let it block ranged attacks. Credit Martel


Give it a unique mechanism to hold hate better than RUN
  • Give PLD a trait that allows it to break the hate cap by some small amount. Maybe 1000-2000 CE/VE. This would let PLD hold hate at the cap, but it still would not be easy. They'd have to constantly struggle to keep their hate above the cap.


Give it another native hate tool
It's obscene that the job is almost 100% reliant on a subjob for its ability to hold hate. Ridiculous and quite honestly terrible design that it's best option is spamming subjob spells that have no chance of landing or abilities that it'll immediately turn off.
  • Give it foil

  • Give it a Spell/JA that helps with party magic damage mitigation. 1 minute recast. This would force a single AoE magic damage ability/spell to be single target on the PLD. Could come with the negative that it's MDT+10% or something. If it's a JA, perhaps combine it with another adjustment I'll mention next.


Enhance Rampart
  • If the wiki is accurate about the Def boost, then adjust this to give much more def. Perhaps a % based on current PLD def.

  • In conjunction with the above new JA. Drop Rampart recast to 1 minute as well. Rampart could not be up at the same time as the new JA. I feel like this + the new JA can rival All-for-One, Valiance, and Liement while still having weaknesses of basically only eating one move each.


Enhance cover
  • Drop it's recast to 60-90 seconds.

  • Give it an additional effect of providing AoE physical damage mitigation in a wide cone behind the PLD. Perhaps tied to Phalanx or perhaps just a PDT II effect.

  • Block AoEs from hitting Covered PC. Credit to Martel

  • While active it cover's whoever has hate. As hate shifts around they just need to run behind the PLD. Credit to Martel

  • While active it cover's everyone in alliance behind the PLD. Credit Eightball.

  • I'd actually like this to be an ability we could full time and switch targets maybe with a 5-10 second recast. It'd be pretty strong, but would require some player input to maximize it. And have it so you can cover any PC in alliance


Fix Flash
  • Just let the damn thing land without a ***ton of magic acc and actually be potent enough to have something miss. I miss when Flash actually took effect. We HAVE to gear this thing for Enmity because that's basically our only good native tool.

  • flashga. Credit Martel. Would be really good for PLD to get some kind of AoE hate move.


Adjust Enlight
  • Adjust Enlight so that it can work alongside Auspice

  • Remove the decay mechanic.


Fix Atonement
  • Have it mirror Mordant Rime but with STR and VIT as modifiers. With the additional effect being an enmity increases with TP.

  • No clue how hard this would be, but make it only target party members and it literally drains their enmity, but deals no damage. Scales with TP and Enmity+ gear for a multiplicative effect on drained enmity.

  • something...anything... please god make it suck less...


magic evasion
  • Give PLD better magic evasion. Credit Martel. Personal note, I wouldn't necessarily want RUN levels of MEva for a sense of keeping jobs unique, but holy crap PLD gear in general has awful MEva. Just give a bump to AF/Relic/Empy gear MEva.


shield bash
  • shield bash should grant 500 or more TP. Credit Omnys

  • Strengthen the stun. Like leg sweep strength.



My goal in the above was to turn PLD into the safer party/alliance tank that's actually able to hold hate on longer fights. I don't want PLD to try to approach RUNs damage output. I also don't want PLD to try to provide the same status effect defenses. I don't necessarily like that I'd have PLD eat into RUN's magic defenses superiority, but with the game in its current state, magic damage is the killer. PLD just needs some mechanism to help the party mitigate magic damage. I feel like RUN will still dominate most of the game. I don't see these changes eating into anything besides maybe Dynamis D and some of the really tough end game fights, but this would at least give PLD a purpose. I think many people will still prefer kill speed, but possibly this lets people trade some kill speed for safety.

Some of these are probably overpowered and I'm all for people ripping them apart. Maybe while doing so, provide how it might be balanced.

Thanks for reading.
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By eliroo 2019-05-07 16:36:42
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Quote:
Adjust Enlight
Adjust Enlight so that it can work alongside Auspice

Fix Auspice so it works along with everything else.
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By soralin 2019-05-07 16:45:57
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Just use Shining One, go /Run, and augment Parry rate on your cape.

Or just *** it and go /Sam for hasso and who cares about hate tools when you're spamming 40K Impulse drives with Sentinel up. You will not have any issues holding hate.

Really I just lament the fact Pld isn't on Utu grip or Turms gear and we have no sources of Inqaurtata natively.

Im actually really curious who would win in a DPS parse.

Run/Sam with Lionheart, Pld/Sam with Shining One, or Pld/Nin with Sequence+Tp Bonus sword.

It'd be a pretty tight race tbh, both put out some very impressive numbers.

I think Run will win, as it has phenomenally more Double Attack and Utu Grip.
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By eliroo 2019-05-07 16:49:25
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soralin said: »
Im actually really curious who would win in a DPS parse.

Run/Sam with Lionheart, or Pld/Sam with Shining One.

Uh, is this really a question?
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By Lili 2019-05-07 18:08:39
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Cerberus.Hokuten said: »
Give it a Spell/JA that helps with party magic damage mitigation. 1 minute recast. This would force a single AoE magic damage ability/spell to be single target on the PLD. Could come with the negative that it's MDT+10% or something. If it's a JA, perhaps combine it with another adjustment I'll mention next.

I like this. It's basically Celes' Rune Blade from FF6 lol. I think it'd be more thematically appropriate for RUN tho.

My idea for improving PLD is this

Atonement
Change Atonement so it reduces enmity of the other members of the party - it'd be in line with the lore of PLD, and with the name of the WS itself.
Also cap its damage to ilvl*100 instead of current *10.
I haven't thought thoroughly about the details, but some ideas would be, in no particular order:

- Atonement itself reduces enmity of every other member of the party by a fixed % - say, 10%
OR
- Atonement itself reduces enmity of a single party/alliance member by a fixed percentage. The character needs to be behind the PLD. Kinda like a mini-Cover of sorts.

- Synergy between Atonement and Cover so that Atonement alone reduces Enmity AoE by 10% (or something), but when Cover is up it becomes single target by a larger percentage (25%?)

- Burtgang augments Atonement, changing it from single-target enmity reduction to aoe enmity reduction
OR
- Burtgang augments Atonement, changing the enmity reduction from -10% aoe to -20% aoe (or something)

I didn't think this idea through honestly, it was the result of a short brainstorming session on Discord. But I really like it, it would be thematically appropriate, would synergize well with other abilities, and would give more use to some tools of PLD that are currently kinda meh.
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By soralin 2019-05-07 18:39:46
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eliroo said: »
soralin said: »
Im actually really curious who would win in a DPS parse.

Run/Sam with Lionheart, or Pld/Sam with Shining One.

Uh, is this really a question?

Yes.

Impulse drives I generally can do about 40K on Ambu VD, Escha NMs, etc.

But as stated, I think Run would very likely win do to its substantially higher DA.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-05-07 18:44:31
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I'm not even sure what it would take to get PLD back up to par... RUN just has such utility.

That said, I'll take any improvements to Atonement I can get. That WS has only two uses right now. Activating AM3, and opening a light SC to close with Savage in omen. Atonement hits for ***so the mob has plenty of HP left for the 30k objective. lol <,<;

I think party enmity manipulation via any means, but especially via one that also deals dmg, would be a great idea. Combining this with a reasonable dmg Atonement would make spamming Atonement a potentially viable tanking style again. Feels oldschool man.

Although... I still think single wielders need some way to cap delay reduction. So there's another thing.

I strongly second the desire for ilvl Aegis and Ochain. Do Want. Although, on the highest lvl mobs, Aegis' block rate is still going to suck even with an ilvl sized dose of skill. But any improvement is appreciated.

In regards to Srivatsa, I'm honestly not sure that making the DT into DT II would even be enough to make it on par with Aegis/Ochain. Aegis would still be superior for magic dmg. Ochain would still be better for physical dmg from the front. That leaves getting hit in the ***(it would be pretty good for this <,<; ), and breath dmg? It has such nice other stats on it, but the core mechanics of the shield make it useless.

For Cover... I want it to be able to block AoEs, and reliably block spells. If only for the coveree. Not even asking for it to defend the whole party. I'm standing in front of them, blocking attacks coming their way. Aoe? Hits them right through me. -.-

But perhaps more importantly... I would be best if cover just sorta followed whoever the mob is targeting. It's so easy to waste. You cover one DD(assuming you can even get into the DD party! Remove that limitation) hate shifts and now the rest of your cover get's wasted. Although the issue with making it mob focused is that it would lose the ability to protect teh coveree form multiple mobs. Could just make it protect any pt member behind the paladin. That would be entertaining. Pull hate? Go hide behind the PLD. But I doubt SE would do it.

I'd also like to see something done about PLD's ***tier magic evasion. That stat has become ridiculously important. And the current 'fix' to the extent that it even is a fix, is an obnoxiously rare dynamis divergence set.(look up volte haubert set)

Take Mijiin Gakure from NIN NMs in divergence for example. The ONLY way to survive these, outside of like, RUN SP, is resisting them. It ignores DT. And has a base dmg of like 4k or so? PLD is not great at this. I've shrugged off countless NM Mijiin's on RUN, often not even noticing I just got SP'd. My PLD, even when gearing towards Meva(no, I didn't have the volte set at the time, and still don't have all of it) and and getting Attunement, if I'm that lucky... tends to die.
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By Cerberus.Hokuten 2019-05-07 18:49:01
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soralin said: »
Just use Shining One, go /Run, and augment Parry rate on your cape.

I don't want PLD to be RUN, and I think it'd be a mistake to try to make them similar. Also, you are just turning PLD into a gimp RUN.

soralin said: »
Or just *** it and go /Sam for hasso and who cares about hate tools when you're spamming 40K Impulse drives with Sentinel up. You will not have any issues holding hate.

Again, just trying to make it into a gimp RUN. PLD tp gear is an abomination compared to RUN's, and RUN has decent gear that compliments Resolution strengths. PLD has some pretty ***options for WS gear that would rely one some damn perfect augments.

It sacrifices a ton to try to get it to do this.

All that and its a shitty RUN with none of the good RUN abilities to help keep a party safe.
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 Asura.Shiraj
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-05-07 18:52:31
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I honestly couldn't see them two being anywhere close in my opinion. A well geared DD Rune with capped buffs and fighter's roll is no doubt putting out consistent 50-70k Resolutions without R15 Lionheart and just Epeo. So I'd imagine an R15 Lionheart would land consistent 70k+ with same capped buffs and putting them out at a much faster rate, due to STP gear and Multi attack gear.

This mainly applies in Omen and some Ambu VDs, even Eschan NMs.
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By Asura.Sirris 2019-05-07 18:53:39
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Paladin definitely needs something analogous to Foil. But even with a lot of changes rune fencer just has a huge advantage in their kit, the synergy between RUN and SMN, or RUN and nukers, or RUN and melee DDs... you'd really have to overhaul the tanking role to fix this. The changes you propose aren't nearly enough.

Still, there are only three tanking jobs. Even if paladin is kind of bad you can usually make it work, so it's not the worst spot to be in?
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-05-07 18:57:21
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I'll say this which a lot of people don't realise or take in.

PLD is a great job for people who are wanting to tank for the first time and are wanting to try new things.

RUN is a very complex job in comparison to a PLD and has fewer places for error.

RUN has no Aegis, so it's up to the player to make that gap between no Aegis and an Aegis smaller so RUN takes minimal magic damage while also using Runes to resist status elements. That is of course if you are wanting to be a little independant and not rely on whm erase.

PLD for returning players/ mid-tier content.

RUN for more experienced players doing end-game content.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-05-07 18:58:50
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Hmm, yes. I really want a foil equivalent. I don't think the evasion vs tp moves buff really suits PLD, so I'd want some other effect. But I really want a low recast high enmity(good CE!) self targeted spell. Also. Flashga. Do it already SE.
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By Cerberus.Hokuten 2019-05-07 18:59:43
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Lili said: »
Atonement

Oh man! I completely forgot about Atonement. That was on my list as well. What a complete ***WS. Just absolute ***. I don't really have a unique idea to offer, but it just needs to *** scale with the damage potential in the game. It might be fun to get it to some how play in with the enmity system, but at this point I'd just like a good dmg option. Maybe just make it a Mordant Rime clone with VIT and STR mods, and the varied effect is a %enmity boost.
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By Cerberus.Hokuten 2019-05-07 19:06:15
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Asura.Shiraj said: »
I'll say this which a lot of people don't realise or take in.

PLD is a great job for people who are wanting to tank for the first time and are wanting to try new things.

RUN is a very complex job in comparison to a PLD and has fewer places for error.

RUN has no Aegis, so it's up to the player to make that gap between no Aegis and an Aegis smaller so RUN takes minimal magic damage while also using Runes to resist status elements. That is of course if you are wanting to be a little independant and not rely on whm erase.

PLD for returning players/ mid-tier content.

RUN for more experienced players doing end-game content.

For returning platers/mid-tier content I feel like with the same amount of effort and difficulty, RUN can do everything a PLD can do. Your Aegis comment is accurate, but then again, there's not a whole lot in midtier that even scares you enough to require an Aegis.

Like...it can't just be a "starter tank" job. People play it for 2 months before they decide to completely abandon it and hop over to RUN??? So sad.
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By Cerberus.Hokuten 2019-05-07 19:09:11
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Asura.Sirris said: »
The changes you propose aren't nearly enough.

Yeah, I figured they wouldn't be enough to change the entire landscape. Though, I'd wonder if raising the enmity cap for PLD via trait would do wonders for it. Been in so many situations where we hit the hate cap and then ***just hits the fan with people dropping left and right. If there was a rock that could hold onto the mob through that, maybe it'd be worth using.
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By fonewear 2019-05-07 19:21:56
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Let PLD dual wield shields problem fixed.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-05-07 19:22:25
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Something of an after thought but...

Presumably the reason that Enlight had a decay mechanic built in to it when it was made, was to prevent it from being abused using low delay/high multi hit weapons. It decays so fast it forces an early recast, breaking into your melee time and cutting down DPS.

But now that RDM has WTF high dmg enspells with no such balancing mechanic... I don't really see any reason that Enlight should decay anymore at all. May as well give it a boost while they're at it. <,<

fonewear said: »
Let PLD dual wield shields problem fixed.
I wonder if both shields would be able to proc a block at the same time, or if it would be a one or the other kind of thing? XD
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By Valefor.Omnys 2019-05-07 19:25:08
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I’ve always thought Cover should work like Accomplice, maybe 25%, ignoring Cover’s outdated positioning crap.

For funsies, shield bash should grant 500 or more TP.

But then again, haven’t played in two years so~. Even then, RUN was just more fun than PLD. Epeo-DD tanking was the most fun I ever had tanking in any game since 2008~ NIN.
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By fonewear 2019-05-07 19:26:18
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I've always wanted to play PLD but I normally do all my tanking on monk with my 10,000 HP.

Also to fix PLD just delete RUN. Problem solved.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-05-07 19:30:31
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Valefor.Omnys said: »
I’ve always thought Cover should work like Accomplice, maybe 25%, ignoring Cover’s outdated positioning crap.

For funsies, shield bash should grant 500 or more TP.

But then again, haven’t played in two years so~. Even then, RUN was just more fun than PLD. Epeo-DD tanking was the most fun I ever had tanking in any game since 2008~ NIN.
Cover does have enmity related properties. They just activate on a successfully intercepted hit, not on JA activation.

If a monster is attacking very quickly or has high multi-hit you could drain another players enmity down to nothing pretty quickly. Except... that as soon as you push the other player's enmity below your own, the mob starts aiming at you directly(or at someone else entirely), and the hits are no longer counted as intercepted. so the enmity effects don't activate.

Still good for catching up after a hate reset I suppose.
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By soralin 2019-05-07 19:35:01
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Sorry wait why do people think Pld doesnt have good TPing gear?

My hybrid pld set has:

+33 Store TP
+38% Double Attack
+2% Triple Attack

ItemSet 359870

My Hybrid Inquartata Run set has:

+9 Store TP
+25% Double Attack

ItemSet 365991

When optimized for Hybdrid performance, Paladin actually has way better gear overall. No idea why you guys think it's ***.

Rune fencer's big draw is:

* Hasso
* Utu Grip
* Resolution
* AoE Valiance / One for All
* Gambit / Rayke
* -50% effective extra PDT
* Temper

Paladin on the other hand has

* -75% effective extra MDT
* Self cures


Though Pld appears to have higher Double attack in gear, a Run with Temper up actually has more.

Paladin's bigger draw then will be its higher Store TP.

However, Run just weaponskills harder, has better tankiness, and high magic eva.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-05-07 19:43:41
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I just want to say that it was seriously annoying when PLD got left out in the cold in terms of equipable Omen gear.

Nqqmadu ring, Sherida earring, Knobkierrie, Anu torque, Utu grip... can't wear any of it. Ugh.
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By Cerberus.Hokuten 2019-05-07 19:43:45
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I feel sorry for you, if that's what you normally TP in on RUN. You can go WAAAAAAAAY more aggressive than that on RUN and be perfectly fine. While your set for PLD is basically is good as it possibly could get.

I have basically that same set on PLD because I really did try to see what it was capable of. Its nowhere close.
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By Asura.Chaostaru 2019-05-07 20:17:12
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the gap is pretty huge. Pld does need a major adjustment or run needs to be heavily nerfed. and people will *** about it either way, but something really should be done before pld ends up like nin. It hurts to see a BIS pld get out tanked by a run who just threw his gear sets together from blu/thf ect. you can effectively tank/dps/ws 99% of everything with ambu gear, while it may be hard for some people to pick up, Run is incredibly easy to gear and Id say it stands as the entry level tank for beginners who can read bgwiki. where as pld, you need to throw 35mil at an aegis before even thinking about joining a party.

and I say that while im building a burt >_>
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By soralin 2019-05-07 20:18:00
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Cerberus.Hokuten said: »
I feel sorry for you, if that's what you normally TP in on RUN. You can go WAAAAAAAAY more aggressive than that on RUN and be perfectly fine. While your set for PLD is basically is good as it possibly could get.

I have basically that same set on PLD because I really did try to see what it was capable of. Its nowhere close.

I can swap out to:

Waist: Ioskeha Belt +1

Legs: Meg. Chausses +2

Feet: Herculean with Triple Attack Augment

Which certainly boosts my DPS a fair bit.

But I do like having the capped DT and substantially higher Parry rate my set gives. Might kill a little bit slower, sure, but it is substantially smoother take downs in fights.

Hybrid set is called Hybrid set for a reason. Its not my aggressive set or my tanky set. Its a balance of the two.
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By Shiva.Eightball 2019-05-07 20:19:29
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I totally agree with the cover idea, it’s what I thought of when OP mentioned cover, cover should be just an activated ability on the pld and anyone alliancewide hiding behind the pld should be covered from all physical hits for the duration.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-05-08 12:09:20
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It would be nice if Block+ didn't suck so much.

Currently Block+ is applied before the floor and cap, so if you're sufficiently below the floor(Hi Aegis! ) large chunks of block+ can potentially do nothing. Well, they do help you catch up to the floor I guess... But well, look at Inquartata+ gear...

Secondly, Block+ is not counted as a part of the current blockrate when applying reprisal. So math-wise we have;

(BaseBlockRate*ReprisalMod)+ BlockPlus = Reprisal block rate.

This sucks. Changing this wouldn't fix PLD's core issues. But it would be nice to adjust these mechanics.

EDIT: Oh, and while I'm daydreaming, make ranged attacks blockable. It's just weird that you can't block them. That's what shields are for. <,<
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By Nariont 2019-05-08 12:40:59
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Youd have to nerf runs dd potential or skyrocket plds dd ability to have pld back alongside it as a tank these days, not to mention all the utility run brings which some of the proposed changes could help address.

Its really silly just how good run is as far as tank/dd/even something of a support all rolled into 1 function
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-05-08 12:55:14
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Cerberus.Hokuten said: »
Like...it can't just be a "starter tank" job. People play it for 2 months before they decide to completely abandon it and hop over to RUN??? So sad.

I agree, but it's the way it should be. PLD sucks now, dude. I mained PLD for 8-9 years and loved the job. But sadly RUN is way better than it at everything. End-game content is way easier with a RUN over a PLD.
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-05-08 13:03:06
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soralin said: »
Paladin on the other hand has

* -75% effective extra MDT
* Self cures

You do realise RUN can hybrid tank/DD most things without even needing self cures, I proved that many times and so have loads others. Turms Mittens are that broken.

Also depending on content, RUN can actually reach 80% MDT for 1 element, from 5/5 Merits into Vallation and using it. Sometimes you don't want 5/5 in Vallation, but 5/5 in Pflug so it varies. however, 72.5% without 5/5, but 80% with.

Also RUN's M.eva make that extra MDT missing meaningless. I've seen it myself, and done it as well, taking less damage from a Meteor from Neak, Kyou and Ou than an Aegis PLD.
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