[Dev] Probability Of Treasure Hunter Rising

It's not anywhere near negligible if TH is additive. That 5% drop you've had your eye on going up to 6% would cut your expected wait significantly.

The best counterargument to an additive droprate is fafnir's xidb data. At 2%, the rate just seems too low for any case supporting it.

<Tangent>
On that note, SE stated directly that Dring and ridill were the same droprate, and our sample sizes are approaching such that there seems to be something wonky there. If we assume TH does not effect dring droprate in any way, we might need to look at different ways of modeling drops. I've always toyed with the idea of rarity being relative to amount in circulation, but never took it seriously, too much effort on SE's side. Granted, it's not out of the realm of possibility to think SE would lie, but a little footnote like that being false is a bit unexpected.

I'm going off of 50% personal experience and 50% estimations based on available data. TH above 2~3 never made me feel like I was missing something if I didn't have it, and I've yet to see amazing evidence that suggests it makes an irreplaceable boost to my gameplay experience. Is it possible? I guess so, yes, just not immensely plausible at this time.

Personally I'm within a 99.9% range of believing it is not additive in any way.

In all reality, Treasure Hunter is probably operating in some weird way we haven't thought of yet.

I've considered the TH1/2 give you additional rolls, and take the highest value. This would assume the drop tables are sorted by rarity. But, they seem to be pretty convinced their drop tables are delicate (see: TH and BST pets discussion) so it's not really unreasonable that this is the case. TH3+ would then add some static value to your final roll.

I think the whole thing is *** and needs to die violently in a sea of flame and copies of ET for the Atari2600. The drop system for XI is unnecessarily obfuscated and shitimified.

I would say they should just get rid of TH all together, but people have a *** for THF. I think it has something to do with the prestige that came with being the LS THF back in 2006.

If I had it my way, yeah, TH wouldn't exist at all. It's a really stupid idea to begin with. In a single-player game maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal, but for a MMO where each character in the party is an actual person it's just a huge annoyance, especially considering FFXI probably has the most character classes (in a single faction anyway) out of every single MMO.

Completely invalidating a job would be poor etiquette. There's precious little THF has to offer over NIN or DNC if you take away TH.

While I'm not going to go around singing RDM or PUP's praises, without TH THF would be well below both of them.

I'd be A-OK if it had never existed, though.

Well the thing is that if they removed TH they should have no qualms about buffing up THF more in other aspects to make up for it. That's always been their logic anyway, ability in one aspect of the game means the job suffers in other aspects.

Yea, but you can't pretend it won't piss off a large portion of the playerbase if you drastically change a relatively popular job's main role. I suppose THF could do okay with a bit more movement or a couple fast claims.. time engaged over dps while engaged type thing. Not like anything of the sort will ever happen, though.

I always wanted Thief to be more like the series, being able to steal a wide variety of things or mixing from FFX. Steal/Mug are pretty useless in end-game scenario, no mixing. Would be cool if they could steal different parts of an item from mobs and use them together to make a bomb or something to influence the battle, or strong debuffs like an angon effect and one for atk/mdef/etc that stacks with the standard methods of those debuffs. Then add Chemist to Thief too!

Their 2-man team isn't going to be able to design fights that'd implement that in a meaningful way without making THF required. Would be really cool to have a Rikku-type thief though.

I still feel like the ridill/dring thing holds some information though, if SE isn't lying then something is working in some way to artificially lower ridill's droprate or our understanding of TH on dring is inaccurate. When you consider that ridill -should- be effected by TH, while dring -shouldn't- by our current understanding, the difference becomes even more pronounced. We don't get very much straight information out of SE, especially regarding droprates, it'd be silly to completely overlook.

Can you get free king pops on the test server?

Never had an account, but even if you can I don't think we could get enough kills to show much. Actual TH testing would involve thousands of kills at controlled TH levels and no unexpected upgrades. Perhaps in abyssea, with THFs of matching TH pulling monsters.. but certainly not on 5 min/pop KBs.

However, I think that any attempt to establish a model should also consider individual cases from XIDB. It's an amazing data source, things like this would never have been noticed without it.

My post wasn't even that serious. I'm not a main thf and, more importantly, I don't bring it to events. If I did use it in situations that may benefit others maybe I'd give a couple of *** about considering the option of the Placebo Knife, but to solo aby nms and dyna I don't even think about it - main reason being inventory not even damage.
That being said I didn't even told others to not use it, so I wasn't spreading misinformation or anything, was a comment about what I do only.

Now, keep praising the grandeur of the Mirage Knife if you desire, I just don't care and never will.

That's what you get for thinking you can make a non-serious post on FFXIAH.

so if i we don't understand it we don't want it?

i personally like the idea of th.

This is ffxiah
We only like stuff if we can parse / math the living hell out of it and have a spreadsheet duel.

>Implying you can't parse treasure hunter upgrade rates

It isn't about not understanding how TH works, it's that from a game design perspective (At least as far as an MMO goes), TH is a stupid idea. It makes it so they they purposefully set drop rates really low and then force people to bring jobs that have no other purpose other than to increase drops. Why not just not have TH and make drop rates higher? You know that these are the type of people that will say to themselves "we have to account for TH increasing the drop rates too" every time they decide to design a new monster/battle system. It's even more annoying that they seem to think that the ability to TH should somehow be an excuse to limit the job's other aspects, such as DPSing.

TH adds no gameplay value, unless you think throwing a boomerang at every monster once to make sure TH is tagged is fun. All it does is force groups to feel like they need to bring a specific job, otherwise the entire run isn't even really worth doing. I call that a really dumb design choice.

Man if we start talking about SE and really dumb design choices, this thread is going to get SUPER long.

Here's where I will disagree with you Kincard, but only in part. I don't think that it's wrong to limit the DPS of a job because they bring some other utility to the fight (like TH). The problem lies with the value of treasure hunter trait itself above TH2.

You are right when you say "TH adds no gameplay value" because nobody really cares about getting higher levels of TH.

What should happen is that TH should also put a stacking debuff on the mob in a similar fashion that dancer steps work. The debuff could be anything. Debuffs that fit the role of THF are mostly covered by the dancer steps already (quickstep and feather step anyway). However, there are other debuffs that could be tied to TH levels. Like a stacking debuff that lowered the target's TP gain, or perhaps a stacking debuff that didn't do anything but give the THF a certain amount of points, and he could use those points as if they were charges for Accomplice. Then, obviously remove the cooldown on Accomplice and let it's enmity value be determined by the number of TH stacks on the target.

Anyway, you get the point. Some type of debuff to the target that stacked with increased levels of TH would be an appropriate quick fix to a FUBAR system.

necro all tha thangs?

Think before you ask for that. Then thf's would be expected to dual wield that dagger with Thief's Knife.

And then you'd be stuck dual wielding Thief's Knife +1 and Thief's Knife, and nothing will have changed.
Pretty sure this same thing was pointed out pages(And a month!) ago.

Might be some solution to not having to use such a low level dagger but this is probably not it.
Unless the upgrade kept the same name and a rare tag. Probably not happening either way though.
Why do I never refresh pages...

They already have a mechanic to do exactly this; Trial of the Magians.

/inb4 trigger TH on an NM 600 times for DMG+1

I think SE should allow us to upgrade our Thief's Knife. Just like a Relic or Empyrean, a Thief's Knife could easily be added to the Magian NPC.

Introducing a second knife that is not directly upgraded from the TH Knife would result in most THFs having to full-time two inferior knives compared to Relic, Empyrean or Magians. It would be nice to get some extra TH, and have the TH knife on level 99.

SE did not let us know how Treasure Hunter worked for so long. If a Thief is in a situation where TH is not required, 90% of the time you will want another DD job, so getting a second dagger for off-hand is much more situational.

Some people say that effectiveness over a certain value is useless, however if your someone who really wants a certain drop, they will get that effectiveness up as much as possible, specially if its a mob that can take a while to kill..

Effectiveness has to help the drop rate, otherwise, what's the point in it being there?

If you're fighting anything that can be killed over and over again, damage becomes a lot more important, making sure each mob has TH on it is good enough.

Would a Thief's Knife+3 be a good idea?

Followed by a +30 delay increase because wow that +1 DMG is a lot.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29373-Thief-s-Knife-upgrades

Because hey, why not. It's certainly no worse than some of the other ideas up there.

Oh someone beat me to it lol.

Wish I could lock/unlock my own topics...