23% Haste Reckoning +1 VS. 26% Haste Apoc |
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23% Haste Reckoning +1 VS. 26% Haste Apoc
Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: Phoenix.Excelior said: The 23% haste build could never beat apoc. If you get to 25% haste you might be able to do comparable damage. you have to realize that the melee damage on apoc is massive though. I don't think reckoning's 16.7% increase in WS rate will overtake apocalypse's massive boost to melee damage. The double damage is enough to beat the 5 hit build, trust me lol You're also ignoring haste differences. Standalone the haste difference you'd need to beat a 5hit with a 6hit in WS frequency is around, 5-6%? The 23% vs capped has to be like 2.3. 5% Double procs per 100 swings would in no way beat such a large WS freq increase. I haven't mathed 5hit though, but all in all relics could use a different boost next update aside from +D and further overshot accuracy, like augmented AM, etc etc, if they don't get a nice boost update they'd definitely fall behind.
Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: Standalone the haste difference you'd need to beat a 5hit with a 6hit in WS frequency is around, 5-6%? The 23% vs capped has to be like 2.3. 5% Double procs per 100 swings would in no way beat such a large WS freq increase. I haven't mathed 5hit though, but all in all relics could use a different boost next update aside from +D and further overshot accuracy, like augmented AM, etc etc, if they don't get a nice boost update they'd definitely fall behind. Yeah I know, I said I haven't mathed 5hit apoc out, but the Reckoning build definitely beats a 6hit.
Bahamut.Dasva said: Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: Standalone the haste difference you'd need to beat a 5hit with a 6hit in WS frequency is around, 5-6%? The 23% vs capped has to be like 2.3. 5% Double procs per 100 swings would in no way beat such a large WS freq increase. I haven't mathed 5hit though, but all in all relics could use a different boost next update aside from +D and further overshot accuracy, like augmented AM, etc etc, if they don't get a nice boost update they'd definitely fall behind. I always hated the concept of 5 hit apoc, it sacrificed too much *** gear. Now with atmas out there to make up the difference I bet they're so much more doable. Have you see any good ones? Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: Yeah I know, I said I haven't mathed 5hit apoc out, but the Reckoning build definitely beats a 6hit. Just comparing elemental values;
6hit => 5hit: 25% increase in WS frequency. Why? The variable you are interested in is the increase in WS frequency which has a direct and proportional relationship with the number of melee hits between WS. This decreases from 5 to 4. The increase is therefore 1/4. Why use the lower number on the denominator? Simplest way to think of this logically is consider a theoretical 2hit being reduced to a 1hit (ie, so the 1hit can just endlessly chain weaponskills) - ignoring factors like WS delay, the increase in WS frequency would be infinite. Is this 1/1 or 1/0 (1hit between WS => 0hits between WS)? 125% WS frequency relative to Apoc from this. 2.25~% Haste difference apparent is (2.25/22)~ = 10.2% increase in DoT/WS frequency at ~capped Haste, best possible scenario for that difference, so Reckoning+1 has 89.8% the WS frequency relative to Apoc from this. Result is +~12.3% WS frequency in Reckoning+1's favour at cappedish Haste. Reduce or increase as necessary for different areas. If you deal 100 damage a hit and 200 damage with the double damage proc 5% of the time, total damage relative to 100 hits without the double damage proc is [(200 * 5) + (95 * 100)]/10000 = 5%. tl;dr: Double Damage isn't enough to beat 5hit alone, but the base DMG will probably just about win in the end... it's not really that far ahead though ;x Phoenix.Excelior said: Bahamut.Dasva said: Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: Standalone the haste difference you'd need to beat a 5hit with a 6hit in WS frequency is around, 5-6%? The 23% vs capped has to be like 2.3. 5% Double procs per 100 swings would in no way beat such a large WS freq increase. I haven't mathed 5hit though, but all in all relics could use a different boost next update aside from +D and further overshot accuracy, like augmented AM, etc etc, if they don't get a nice boost update they'd definitely fall behind. No idea sorry, I'd assume it involes Ace's gear among other lame things. Bahamut.Dasva said: Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: Yeah I know, I said I haven't mathed 5hit apoc out, but the Reckoning build definitely beats a 6hit. Well not really, the set Gradd posted is 23% (of course I'm assuming fSTR/attack capped through atmas, if that much STR is really needed to be sacrificed) and Catastrophe is gear haste, so it wouldn't be substantially different. Haste math:
23% reckoning 5 hit, apoc 25% 6 hit: Buffs: Marchx2, haste, hasso 528-68%= 168.96 delay 513-70%= 153.9 delay 168.96*5= 844.8 delay per WS 153.9*6= 923.4 Delay per WS WS speed difference: 8.6% more WSs with reckoning: Melee difference: 528-68%= 168.96 delay 513-70%= 153.9 delay Melee difference: Apoc swings 9% more times, thus 9% more damage in melee. Other melee factors: Apoc has 17 more damage, 30 more accuracy, and double proc. Double proc can be seen as a 5% increase in melee damage so: Melee difference: 9%+5% = 14% more melee damage with apoc. This isnt even counting accuracy or base damage differences. The closer you get to capped haste the further ahead apoc will pull. Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: Bahamut.Dasva said: Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: Yeah I know, I said I haven't mathed 5hit apoc out, but the Reckoning build definitely beats a 6hit. His gear set with double march and haste and samba is just under 70 haste. If you use Haste belt with apoc with that setup you can get just under 80. Really not sure why more drks don't think of that. Damn thing is cheap and easy to make. The difference between 70 and 80 haste is friggin huge Bahamut.Raenryong said: Just comparing elemental values; 6hit => 5hit: 25% increase in WS frequency. Why? The variable you are interested in is the increase in WS frequency which has a direct and proportional relationship with the number of melee hits between WS. This decreases from 5 to 4. The increase is therefore 1/4. Why use the lower number on the denominator? Simplest way to think of this logically is consider a theoretical 2hit being reduced to a 1hit (ie, so the 1hit can just endlessly chain weaponskills) - ignoring factors like WS delay, the increase in WS frequency would be infinite. Is this 1/1 or 1/0 (1hit between WS => 0hits between WS)? 125% WS frequency relative to Apoc from this. 2.25~% Haste difference apparent is (2.25/22)~ = 10.2% increase in DoT/WS frequency at ~capped Haste, best possible scenario for that difference, so Reckoning+1 has 89.8% the WS frequency relative to Apoc from this. Result is +~12.3% WS frequency in Reckoning+1's favour at cappedish Haste. Reduce or increase as necessary for different areas. If you deal 100 damage a hit and 200 damage with the double damage proc 5% of the time, total damage relative to 100 hits without the double damage proc is [(200 * 5) + (95 * 100)]/10000 = 5%. tl;dr: Double Damage isn't enough to beat 5hit alone, but the base DMG will probably just about win in the end... it's not really that far ahead though ;x Bahamut.Dasva said: I don't think you get what I'm saying. His gear set with double march and haste and samba is just under 70 haste. If you use Haste belt with apoc with that setup you can get just under 80. Really not sure why more drks don't think of that. Damn thing is cheap and easy to make Ohh I see, sorry! When you said Haste belt I immediately assumed swift/vbelt etc xD Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: Bahamut.Dasva said: I don't think you get what I'm saying. His gear set with double march and haste and samba is just under 70 haste. If you use Haste belt with apoc with that setup you can get just under 80. Really not sure why more drks don't think of that. Damn thing is cheap and easy to make How about a 5-hit Maleficence+1? I really hope it's still the best >.<
Actually I completely forgot about hasso lol. So if you have both hasso and 5/5 haste samba on top of the double march and haste you already capping total haste with apoc without haste belt.
But yeah the less haste you have the bigger a difference of haste between the 2 weapons. Potentially as big as 13% with his build depending on what buffs you getting. Fenrir.Kirschy said:  This two year old picture proves I'm a taru :( Legitimate, but your taru face should post more in here too sometimes... =/ I think its safe to say at this point that apoc will become a dead weapon if we get a stronger WS than guill. I mean apoc will still be the best weapon in terms of melee damage but cata is just starting to *** suck because of atmas. This is definately leaving room for a new contender for the top weapon. I would like to see drk get a WS simliar to drakesbane in concept, we've needed a good crit hit WS for quite some time.
Unless the next relic trials consist of boosting other aspects of the weapons... such as increased relic weapon skill damage or an OAT effect.
The above may be wishful thinking though, and the next relic trials may just involve more DMG+ and acc+, but who knows. What DRK would like:
native DA longer LR duration stronger (crit-based) WS better gear selection What DRK will get: Magic Attack Bonus gear. Bahamut.Raenryong said: What DRK would like: native DA longer LR duration stronger (crit-based) WS better gear selection What DRK will get: Magic Attack Bonus gear. I dont really consider this ffxi anymore. This is just a game called Abysea. Oh Raen, I'm sure we'll get some more elemental spells to go with that Magic Attack Bonus gear. There's nothing to worry about.
Quetzalcoatl.Giazz said: Oh Raen, I'm sure we'll get some more elemental spells to go with that Magic Attack Bonus gear. There's nothing to worry about. They should give us an ability that makes our spells give TP = to the damage we do. That wouldn't even be broken but would be useful. Phoenix.Excelior said: Quetzalcoatl.Giazz said: Oh Raen, I'm sure we'll get some more elemental spells to go with that Magic Attack Bonus gear. There's nothing to worry about. They should give us an ability that makes our spells give TP = to the damage we do. That wouldn't even be broken but would be useful. A fix to Occult Acumen would be nice, yes. Abyssea era-FFXI >>>>> pre-Abyssea FFXI
Bahamut.Raenryong said: Abyssea era-FFXI >>>>> pre-Abyssea FFXI True but if you don't have any time left in Abyssea (some shells don't) there's really not much else to do. I'm sure someone will say "suck less" but a lot of people solo Abyssea and can't pop TEs while doing NMs. Sky/sea/limbus/einherjar/znm/vnm etc all don't exist anymore?! There is more to do now than there ever has been.
Bahamut.Raenryong said: What DRK would like: native DA longer LR duration stronger (crit-based) WS better gear selection What DRK will get: The Best Magic Attack Bonus gear. Fix'd... Bahamut.Raenryong said: Sky/sea/limbus/einherjar/znm/vnm etc all don't exist anymore?! There is more to do now than there ever has been. Besides WLegs, what comes from Sky that has not been replaced already? Odin.Zicdeh said: Bahamut.Raenryong said: What DRK would like: native DA longer LR duration stronger (crit-based) WS better gear selection What DRK will get: The Best Magic Attack Bonus gear. Fix'd... |
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