Anyone Wanna Make The "Botless Asura"?

Even if you just use gearswap to change gear, it's still providing an advantage over in equipsets. You can change in increments less than a second, you can cast spells from menus with swaps automated, use ja from menu with swaps, ws on alternate targets from menu with swaps. You can have more than 200 equipsets, you can spam a button without having to worry about command errors because of 1 second wait times. You can put FC gear on for a single packet, automatically put midcast gear on regardless of FC state, and so many other things.

People are so used to GS they have no idea the innumerable advantages it gives, even "without" automation

I mean it's fine, basically everyone uses it, but let's be realistic here...

Yes, SE, a JAPANESE COMPANY, us designing content for the ENGLISH playerbase, not the Japanese playerbaae that you yourself said don't use GS. Thats why they get hours long videos and we get cliff notes.

Do you people read what you type? Or is it complete cognitive dissonance at this point. You think anything we, the EN fanbase does matters... hilarious.

i don't use it

I wasn't replying to you, I should've probably quoted others so it was more clear but I was thinking of moonja and that other guy from the last page who said something to the effect of "i just use GS and not JA0 wait, cureplease, tako, and automatic swaps" as if GS was just an external replacement for the equipset system. Any gearswap, regardless of complexity or automation level, has advantages over vanilla. Some more than others, sure, we're all deciding the level of difficulty or advantage we're trying to play with, but it's still a different gameplay experience which i think a lot of people are less than honest with themselves about.

I'll get off my soapbox now, sorry.

GS predates /equipset and expanded macro space in vanilla. It’s also (obviously) nicer to use than vanilla or it wouldn’t exist in the first place lol

There were posts suggesting that it removes animation lock or invariably automates other aspects of gameplay. It does not. :)

This thread sure has taken an expected ffxiah.com turn.

If you could validate everyone's luas you'd see countless syntax errors. Gear not swapping because it's speeled inkorrektlee or gear in their lua that they don't even own because it's borrowed code. Depending on the understanding of the user, it's hit or miss.

I guess we have different pov on what ceiling is. To me ceiling is not the same as your average performance on the high end. Ceiling to me is the best result theoretically doable within unmodified game rule, even if that requires extremely great effort to achieve.

Simply using more macros has nothing to do with ceiling. Because the game allows you to use this many macros without tools to begin with. Players choosing a different methods like GS to manage macros more easily does not mean the ceiling has been increased. It's more like people's performance in most situations increased(average). This is not the same as ceiling increase.

I did not say GS didn't increase ceiling in ALL areas btw. I even listed one example like animation lock which can't be bypassed without tools in anyway. You can also argue that things like changing 4 sets within 1 sec is not doable without GS, even though I strongly doubt changing this many sets within 1 sec will increase your dmg by 20x lol. Doing crazy short time swaps like QC precast/FC 2nd precast/Spell interruption- mid cast/potency set end cast wouldn't be very noticeable in real gameplay unless mage forget about aquaveil and get hit by 2+ mobs.

If you simply talk about the amount of sets available in game, which was the post that I replied to, GS didn't increase anything. The sets are always there and people can simply choose to use 120 macros for all of them without GS. Even if you time travel to 12-15 years ago with GS you still aren't going to have 25 different dt- sets back then if such sets didn't exist. How is it possible to build a DT-/meva set if meva piece didn't exist 15 years ago?

GS really isn't the main culprit behind gear set increase in the past 10 years. It's definitely the stats.


Sure, those are not doable without tools but they didn't increase gear sets, nor they increase your dmg by a large amount to the point that SE has to change difficulty, at least not now. Use JA/spells from menu is more like minor convenience for the player who prefers a different control scheme, but the balance isn't designed around it.

Especially the "spam a button without error" part. Why do you need to spam a button for anything in this game? This game's base turn is like 1 sec, the gameplay is designed in a way that every object make a move roughly once per sec. That's why there is ja and ws delay preventing anyone doing a move right after the last move. Spamming buttons fast isn't going to increase dmg if the game rule doesn't allow 2 JA/WS within 1 sec....this definitely doesn't increase the ceiling.

I don't Remamber Gearswap being like this, all i remember that after u download Windower u just edit a file to be able to equip all slots, its been ages now its automated when u use magic / ws :(
so no its not the same

....you can already TP in massive -dmg without GS.....=.=. I think it's React that allows the player swap between DT-/glass cannon sets during enemy TP moves with nearly zero human error for absolute min-max, not GS.

POV: you're a melee fighting Volte Highwind with Shock Spikes up. If you're playing with macros you have to anticipate that you're about to become un-stunned or time it with the 5 second flashing animation so that your WS goes off just as you unstun before you get stunned by his spikes again. With GS you just spam the button until the WS goes off.

You want to cast a cure or a nuke at the earliest possible time after finishing another spell. With GS you can just spam the button until your animation finishes, with macros you have to actually time your spell with the animation/casting bar.

I could go on and on, but it absolutely happens. As someone who is using macros and equipsets, I couldn't tell you the number of times I try to do an action too soon after another one and my /equipset doesn't go off because it was too fast. Also you have to swap gear in 1s increments, so I'm in my FC gear for at least 1 second, whereas GS users cannot possibly be caught in it. If it takes 1.7 seconds for a spell to cast, I'm in midcast for 2 seconds, GS user is in it for 1.7 seconds. Ditto 1.2, 1.3, 1.5. Cannot cast spells which are short using FC at all.

Some of this can be resolved by /equip slot item, but that requires that your equipment for a set only have either 4 pieces of gear total, or you don't swap back into idle gear then you can use a WHOLE 5 pieces. Or you can use infinite pieces if you want, it just means every single action requires 2-5 macros.

And if you're going to tell me that hitting 4 macros to cast sneak isn't a disadvantage over typing /sneak or picking it out of a menu, then IDK what to tell you.


This is the difference between my perspective and yours (and others). I didn't say and have never said that it increases DPS by 20x, but that's not my bar for "advantage." The fact that it gives any advantage at all, which I think is indisputable...is enough. It doesn't need to, and can't be, measured in a % increase to DPS, or healing efficiency, or whatever, but it is absolutely an advantage. There are times when someone dies because you're waiting on an equipset 1 second delay, or I was slightly slow on a nuke or a cure or w/e because I'm waiting on the delay before my FC gear will be allowed to swap back on, and the person with GS doesn't need to do any of those things.

Once again: I understand that these tools are the common way most people play the game and I am absolutely not trying to advocate that everyone join us in the stone age, I'm just trying to point out to a bunch of people who've been playing with their specialized tools for years that some of what you're doing is absolutely impossible in vanilla and the rest is so cumbersome that nobody would ever do it.

To the COR point: you could do 10 different idle states for 10 different weapon swaps, and have a different macro set for whether you're planning to swap in Rostam/Compensator, which melee weapons you're using, have a different macro for TP QD/MAB QD for every single shot, but every single one of those factors is going to involve another macro page, and they multiply with each other. 10x10x2x2x7 and now you've used 17 macro books for COR alone. You planning to play any other jobs? Good luck. Oh and good luck remembering where the hell you are in that whole mess...oh am I on book 7 page 3, or book 17 page 4?

And even IF you're able to accomplish all of the above and set it up and get comfortable with it, congratulations, you just took on a massive cognitive load that you need to manage and can easily *** up, while your teammate just looks at the UI on his screen and it tells him he's in hybrid physical DT set with STP QD mode on, Compensator locked at 1000% TP, and shows his current gear in a window on his screen. It's completely incomparable.

While true, it's a moot point because gearswap,ashitacast, or whatever add-ons do the same things are enablers. Probably the biggest reason people don't team up any more either, because without stuff like these you couldn't automate multiple accounts.

I already explained, timing your JA/WS/spells perfect with button spam isn't increasing your performance ceiling, it's increasing your average performance. They are not the same.....

We just have different opinion on the definition of "ceiling".


You didn't said but the post that I replied to did lol. Then you replied to my post about it....


This entire discussion was about dps gap increase over the years from the start no? Or did I misunderstood?


No need to remember them, just write a macro with a simple readable label like "DP /ra", then insert /macro book 7 and /macro set 3 command so as soon as I click that macro I am immediately near the all the macros for DP /ra.


I save different profiles for different jobs.



I never said it's less cumbersome than GS nor advocate anyone to change their preferred control scheme. I only said GS was not the main culprit behind gear set increase in the past 10 years, it was stats on the gears. Then somehow you joined the discussion and changed discussion to a different direction only because we have different opinion on what "ceiling" means.....

Sure, if you grant "absolute perfect execution of a complicated multi-macro system for every action" then the "ceiling" is the same for a macro and a GS player. Except it requires computer-level ability to time things and press 5 macros for a single action, but I think *technically* you could theoretically do the same things, you'd just never use equipsets and use /equip head lanun tricorne+3 manually every time you needed to complete any action.


Sorry, I was directly quoting a sentence you wrote, I may have missed the context that you also disagree with the 20x premise, but regardless, I stand by my point: a player using GS will have a marked improvement in performance over the same player using macros with the same gear.


I think the conversation is about: Does SE balance gameplay assuming everyone is using GS or has their design philosophy changed based on GS/plugins? On this point we probably agree: I think they do not, because the game is all completable without Windower. That said, my point is that GS and other mod users insist that SE has changed the game and made it way harder because they presume some level of mods/automation, and I think the presence of people who beat the content without it contradicts that and thus follows my point: GS et al are crutches that people use to make the game easier, while pretending it gives no advantage. They also complain that mechanics are designed around React because they don't feel like "gitting gud" and would rather use React and have the excuse that SE designed it with React in mind.


This only works if you have a single DP /ra. After your RA, you're presumably going back into your TP set, right? Which TP set? You need a set which swaps into pre-shot, mid-shot, then back into your TP gear (for meleeshooting). Also: which mid-shot? Accuracy swap or not? Are you using Flurry 1 preshot, Flurry 2 pre-shot, or no Flurry preshot? You have already, with this one scenario, got 3 (flurry)x 2 (acc) x 10 (melee sets) or 60 different macros. For DP ranged attacks. I'm sure there are other schemes you can use to organize this, like manually swapping back into one or more of those sets, but you still need to push yourself back to the proper macro page to do so...IDK I don't see it being possible to have GS-level optimization without thousands of macros.


Cool. Now you have to log off every time you want to change jobs, and you have a maximum of 4 profiles stored locally, and 1 on the server. Hope you don't want to play more than 5 jobs?


We possibly agree here more than you or I think. I agree that gear has had more of an impact on the amount of different options available to players, but my argument is that nobody can realistically play at a GS level using vanilla FFXI and the reason people are even considering using 10 different engaged sets, 3 snapshot sets, 4 idle sets, etc. is because of GS. Absolutely nobody (maybe .1% of the players) would do any of this if not for GS. Nobody is going to set up hundreds of macros for COR, RUN, PLD, WAR, etc. for every scenario possible in vanilla. It's a GS thing through and through. The gear enabled it to be possible, but GS is what made it practical, and at the end of the day IMHO just because something is technically possible in a "push 30 buttons a second" way, does not mean anyone is going to do it, so I think GS is the largest factor in the hyper-optimization.

Whew schizo paper fest on this board. The "x20" came from this games powercreep and ML grind compared to the power gap back during the pre-ilv days. When I came back on a new account the groups I ran with were full of Ambu+1/+2 100-500JP players being ecstatic to clear a normal ambuscade or dyna D wave 1. Compare that to a fully decked out 6 box being abused to hell and back with every cheat imaginable and even writing your own scripts as a dev and yeah x20 is probably understating it.

What do you mean by "meleeshooting"? To my knowledge you can't melee and shoot on the same time unlike ninja.

Do you mean something like pulling in a melee pt, so you shoot, then switch to melee mode immediately when the mob get close to you? Or use /ra during Perfect dodge/shock spike in a melee pt, then switch back to melee mode after PD/shock spike ends? That's melee ranged mode switching to me, it's still 2 different modes to me and the same principle applies :p. I click on the /ra macro with preshot and mid shot set to pull then as the mob gets close I hit melee TP macro if I am < 1000 TP.


I use multiple rows for different acc tiers and each tier has different flurry tiers on them.

If pt has no rdm at all then I don't activate macro with flurry 2 preshot set in it, which reduces the macro that I have to manage in real gameplay.

Really the base logic isn't too different from writing scripts, it's all "if you have x then activate y" except it's being managed by my brain cell instead of code.


I get that if you use GS, it's somewhat difficult to imagine macro management without it since you never need to deal with these things. But to me, I just solve problems as I encounter them.

Since I don't play ffxi that much, I only have maybe like 2~ active content at any given time because I won't have time to do every content in game. So whichever set that is only useful in one specific content, they won't be in an active macrobook once I no longer do such content.

Like for example, I will never need to use my "Aeolian edge TH4 set" made for omen if I am doing Odyssey NM since I am 100% certain Odyssey NM doesn't need TH. Or if I am doing an easy content with 1200 acc requirement then I won't be using 1600 acc set at all. Since the game mechanics for each content is predictable if you read wiki or have experience, it's not difficult to manage accordingly.

Therefore I don't really deal with thousands of macros in gameplay despite there are 100+ sets made. More like a dozen or two spread across 2-3 rows in 1-3 macrobook most of the time, using /macro book and /macro set to switch between rows quickly. All my active macros can be turned on and off depending on content.


I don't know, tbh! I know serious Western players generally refuse to play without GS but I don't know their % in the entire playerbase.

JP community seems to live with vanilla just fine, many incredible JP solo vid and high level endgame video seems like macro spam fest to me. If you add JP community then vanilla playerbase is probably larger than you think.

But I don't have any data on GS coverage nor I know if SE really design games based on GS. So I won't guess. One thing that I know for sure is that I played in 2011 without GS, and over the years the lack of GS never keep me away from adding more gear sets. My gear set number increased like every other GS users. I have hard time believing that if GS isn't available the game will be easier and simpler tbh. I bet SE will still keep adding more and more relevant stats and gears to this game.

I just think amusing how this kinda of thread manage to get that many of replies

This thread is the dumbest ***.

/doubt

They might not talk about it as openly, but Windower itself was inspired by a JP version of similar programs.

The percentage that use Windower and GS like software is probably very similar across XI players regardless of region.

The JP's absolutely do not play vanilla, they automate and cheat just as much as we do, they just don't brag about how good they are at said cheating.

That's not my point, point is it makes it possible.