Official BLM Epeen Vs SCH Epeen Thread!! Keep These Fights Clean!
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Official BLM epeen vs SCH epeen thread!! Keep these fights clean!
Official BLM epeen vs SCH epeen thread!! Keep these fights clean!
Gilgamesh.Nezea said:
I can't believe this thread is still happening. Everyone just quit now. Argument has gone absolutely nowhere. Nobody's opinion has been changed from where they started when it comes to any aspect of this debate. Edit: Oh yeah since I'm here anyway, thought I'd mention I had a chance to test my damage. SCH T4 with Ebullience did about 200 more damage than BLM T4. Yeah, Sorc Ring, Uggy Pendant and all that jazz active. ok [/thread]
SS or it didn't happen.
Asura.Korpg said:
Still pointless Kungfuhustle
Its perfect.
its making fun of all you math nerds
Asura.Ludoggy said:
Asura.Korpg said:
Still pointless Kungfuhustle
I'm not a math nerd though.
Hi guys! Feel like getting back on topic now?
On my blm...I did a 30 dmg stone once.
[+]
Asura.Ludoggy said:
On my blm...I did a 30 dmg stone once.
Screenshot or it didn't happen.
Reposting from page 12:
Midgardsormr.Sectumsempra said:
Just curious, but just woke up in the middle of night and can't get back to sleep so the odd thoughts are coming in, but what are you guys (talking to all the BLM and SCH) fighting that requires you to need to be nuking constantly, anyways? Everything I ever did that mattered anything (Read: not puddings) required you to skillchain and magic burst or be careful of emnity and not really free nuke and such. If the MP pool is never being fully depleted, doesn't it matter simply who does the most damage in the window that damage is to be done, and isn't that usually one or two nukes at a time?
On most fights nowadays, it's fairly easy to reach the "hate cap" (10k CE/VE) on your tanks. In such a situation, the limiting factor is typically not enmity gain unless the fight drags on for a very significant amount of time. Because of this, your are more likely to be limited by other factors first such as MP pool or range (in a kited fight). This is for 'long' HNM fights such as ToAU beasts and Wyrms usually.
Depending on your group's use of strategy, you may find SC-MB useful, but it's often unnecessary and even a burden. SC-MB confers 3 general benefits - (1) Magic Accuracy Bonus, (2) Magic Damage Bonus, (3) element of timing and damage in large chunks. The first is often unnecessary with correct resistance sets, the 2nd is not required, and in fact often hindered by the fact that multiple nukes landing at the same time now confer building resists (BLM nerf patch). The 3rd isn't necessarily a requirement in most fights, although it can be beneficial. So basically SC-MB isn't really a required strategy; I wouldn't go so far as to say it's pointless though.
Overall, this has a lot to do with each individual groups' strategy and setup. How many players are attending, their job distributions, and the events they choose to participate in. Perhaps defining a situation "that matters" would help distinguish whether or not BLM or SCH is better in your situation.
Depending on your group's use of strategy, you may find SC-MB useful, but it's often unnecessary and even a burden. SC-MB confers 3 general benefits - (1) Magic Accuracy Bonus, (2) Magic Damage Bonus, (3) element of timing and damage in large chunks. The first is often unnecessary with correct resistance sets, the 2nd is not required, and in fact often hindered by the fact that multiple nukes landing at the same time now confer building resists (BLM nerf patch). The 3rd isn't necessarily a requirement in most fights, although it can be beneficial. So basically SC-MB isn't really a required strategy; I wouldn't go so far as to say it's pointless though.
Overall, this has a lot to do with each individual groups' strategy and setup. How many players are attending, their job distributions, and the events they choose to participate in. Perhaps defining a situation "that matters" would help distinguish whether or not BLM or SCH is better in your situation.
I was thinking more like jailors, wyrms dont typically take that long (especially since bahamut is mostly TP burned).
Odin.Blazza said:
That magic damage calculator is proving to be pretty cool once again lol, but did you actually have 32 INT rather than 31? Either that or the flan actually had 88 INT rather than 89, is that possible?
'Cause yeah, I punched in your stats and it didn't quite come out right, but add one extra INT, or subtract one from the flan and I came up with 1794 and 2457. I'm assuming the 1 difference with 1794 is from rounding before applying the lantern though.
'Cause yeah, I punched in your stats and it didn't quite come out right, but add one extra INT, or subtract one from the flan and I came up with 1794 and 2457. I'm assuming the 1 difference with 1794 is from rounding before applying the lantern though.
Not sure if you were talking about me, but I should clarify my stats I think I was a little off since it was late. The SS of my gear I took last night, it is almost the same except zenith hands instead of morrigan (no change), NQ phantom instead of abyssal (-1 int), and 0 INT merits (base79 instead of 80). However, the gear SS is not including food (+7 cream puff), and also I forgot to factor in that if I have my spirit lantern on, I can't wear phantom tathlum (-2 int). So, 118 total int.
Long Post
Interesting that you would refer to jailers as a longer fight but not wyrms (excluding Bahamut). I would think Wyrm fights are longer overall with the exception of Love.
These are some possible situations where you could and do pretty much blow your MP pool regardless of your enmity (note that these are just some personal examples - you can and probably do obviously approach these fights differently).
(Hope)
We pretty much just take like 5 BLMs and a refresher with no melees and tanks. You can move it to one of the bushes near the updraft and run circles and just kite-nuke while bouncing hate. It dies really fast. It can 1-shot you with Thundaga III and it gets messy if more than 1 person dies but generally it's so fast it's a non-issue. Usually it just gets stuck trying to Aerial Collision over and over and you being too far away. In this situation, it's 100% just how fast you can blow that MP pool and how much damage you can get out of it w/o resting. So it's a good example of how a SCH vs. BLM debate focusing on MP efficiency can be relevant. I take SCH to Hope also for the ability to Raise in emergencies.
(Love)
Obviously take the BLM in a low man situation since you have adds to worry about. If you take enough BLMs or work in large allies it probably doesn't matter so much, but I would still prefer BLM here.
(Prudence)
We kite one, and just kite-nuke the other. Melee have a hard time with Sinuate Rush spam sometimes so it's just cleaner to kite-nuke for us. This becomes a near identical situation to Hope except more dangerous and you have to do it twice.
(Justice)
Usually add duties on this one. I could really go either way on it. If it takes you 2 nukes to kill a pet (most people), then you could argue SCH is better because it has better MP efficiency (you have to nuke quite a bit for adds here unless you have more than 3 people on duty). On the other hand, if you have a decked BLM, you can 1 shot the pets, which may end up being more efficient. Again, this'll depend on your group size too.
(Temperance)
In the actual fight obviously SCH is going to be better since you can't even nuke Temp unless someone tomohawks it (how often do you see that?). I will say though, if you are low manning, some groups will use a solo pop and hold technique. For this reason, I go BLM because it's so much easier to navigate due to having Escape. The holding and killing of placeholders is pretty much the same as far as I'm concerned though.
(Fortitude)
Kite-nuke is best here. Again, how fast can you blow your MP pool? If you get enmity you kite it off until a teammate rips it off and you rinse and repeat. Now obviously if you're the only one constantly nuking you have "hate issues", but if the entire strategy is based on a bunch of nukers just going all out, then it's not really a "hate issue" anymore.
(Faith)
See above, but more difficult. We all have run speed so it helps.
So basically it's all about context of the strategy you use. In a kite-nuke strategy enmity issues are usually not present due to bouncing hate. It's only when you attempt to tank a mob that "hate issues" occur. Sea's a great, if not the best, example of how you could essentially manaburn this game prior to the start of ToAU.
You mentioned the frequency of how often you nuke as a factor in which is more "efficient" - BLM or SCH, and this is very true. This is a bit tricky since the more OFTEN you nuke, the LESS EFFICIENT Scholar gets since if you compare Scholar nuke for nuke without abilities, it is innately weaker than Black Mage due to gear and base stat limitations. It requires charges to boost efficiency, which are timed. If your nuking frequency increases, you are getting less charges PER nuke attempt, and more of your nukes go un-augmented by charges like parsimony.
So the less often you nuke (nukes per some unit of time), the more efficient Scholar is over Black Mage, but then as you correctly stated, if you don't nuke enough, then you never actually use up your MP pool and then what's the point of MP efficiency?
What ends up being the case is that you literally are INCAPABLE of nuking fast enough to as a BLM or a SCH to make SCH less efficient than BLM assuming you're using Parsimony whenever possible. In solo you'd be hard pressed to nuke more than 3 times in a minute. So basically if you get into a situation where you can empty your MP pool, you generally would lean towards SCH excluding all other factors (like stun). This is assuming the SCH knows to use only Pasrimony and is actually nuking out.
Interestingly, if you want to add a little twist to the "nuking out your MP pool" situation, you can add a time limit - such is the case for CoP wyrms, most commonly Tiamat and Ouryu. In the typical cookie-cutter manaburn in the air, hold on the ground TP limitation strategy, you gather nukers and sit while it's on the ground, then when it goes airborne, you blast it, using as much MP as possible in the ~120 seconds it's in the air. You don't touch it on the ground to limit TP gain, prevent chances to spike flail and horrid roar.
If you go by this, you would certainly want the BLM. This is because a Scholar trying to be efficient just plain can't nuke out his MP pool in 2 minutes. The recasts on his spells prevent this. BLM, having more tiers of spells and more damage per attempt have a much easier time nuking out the MP pool in the self-imposed time limit. A Scholar can boost damage per shot with Ebullience, but at the cost of efficiency, and STILL not be able to nuke out sometimes just because of the tier IV recast.
At the end of the day, this is preference. There are situations where "mathematically" or "theoretically" one is more efficient than the other, but it assumes (1) perfect play on the nuker's part, (2) reasonable play on everyone else's with no flukes or "***hits the fan" moments, and (3) that your only point in being there is to nuke. You're not really talking about BLM's ability to stun or SCH's ability to play support in light arts, etc. The both clearly work for most situations.
Interesting that you would refer to jailers as a longer fight but not wyrms (excluding Bahamut). I would think Wyrm fights are longer overall with the exception of Love.
These are some possible situations where you could and do pretty much blow your MP pool regardless of your enmity (note that these are just some personal examples - you can and probably do obviously approach these fights differently).
(Hope)
We pretty much just take like 5 BLMs and a refresher with no melees and tanks. You can move it to one of the bushes near the updraft and run circles and just kite-nuke while bouncing hate. It dies really fast. It can 1-shot you with Thundaga III and it gets messy if more than 1 person dies but generally it's so fast it's a non-issue. Usually it just gets stuck trying to Aerial Collision over and over and you being too far away. In this situation, it's 100% just how fast you can blow that MP pool and how much damage you can get out of it w/o resting. So it's a good example of how a SCH vs. BLM debate focusing on MP efficiency can be relevant. I take SCH to Hope also for the ability to Raise in emergencies.
(Love)
Obviously take the BLM in a low man situation since you have adds to worry about. If you take enough BLMs or work in large allies it probably doesn't matter so much, but I would still prefer BLM here.
(Prudence)
We kite one, and just kite-nuke the other. Melee have a hard time with Sinuate Rush spam sometimes so it's just cleaner to kite-nuke for us. This becomes a near identical situation to Hope except more dangerous and you have to do it twice.
(Justice)
Usually add duties on this one. I could really go either way on it. If it takes you 2 nukes to kill a pet (most people), then you could argue SCH is better because it has better MP efficiency (you have to nuke quite a bit for adds here unless you have more than 3 people on duty). On the other hand, if you have a decked BLM, you can 1 shot the pets, which may end up being more efficient. Again, this'll depend on your group size too.
(Temperance)
In the actual fight obviously SCH is going to be better since you can't even nuke Temp unless someone tomohawks it (how often do you see that?). I will say though, if you are low manning, some groups will use a solo pop and hold technique. For this reason, I go BLM because it's so much easier to navigate due to having Escape. The holding and killing of placeholders is pretty much the same as far as I'm concerned though.
(Fortitude)
Kite-nuke is best here. Again, how fast can you blow your MP pool? If you get enmity you kite it off until a teammate rips it off and you rinse and repeat. Now obviously if you're the only one constantly nuking you have "hate issues", but if the entire strategy is based on a bunch of nukers just going all out, then it's not really a "hate issue" anymore.
(Faith)
See above, but more difficult. We all have run speed so it helps.
So basically it's all about context of the strategy you use. In a kite-nuke strategy enmity issues are usually not present due to bouncing hate. It's only when you attempt to tank a mob that "hate issues" occur. Sea's a great, if not the best, example of how you could essentially manaburn this game prior to the start of ToAU.
You mentioned the frequency of how often you nuke as a factor in which is more "efficient" - BLM or SCH, and this is very true. This is a bit tricky since the more OFTEN you nuke, the LESS EFFICIENT Scholar gets since if you compare Scholar nuke for nuke without abilities, it is innately weaker than Black Mage due to gear and base stat limitations. It requires charges to boost efficiency, which are timed. If your nuking frequency increases, you are getting less charges PER nuke attempt, and more of your nukes go un-augmented by charges like parsimony.
So the less often you nuke (nukes per some unit of time), the more efficient Scholar is over Black Mage, but then as you correctly stated, if you don't nuke enough, then you never actually use up your MP pool and then what's the point of MP efficiency?
What ends up being the case is that you literally are INCAPABLE of nuking fast enough to as a BLM or a SCH to make SCH less efficient than BLM assuming you're using Parsimony whenever possible. In solo you'd be hard pressed to nuke more than 3 times in a minute. So basically if you get into a situation where you can empty your MP pool, you generally would lean towards SCH excluding all other factors (like stun). This is assuming the SCH knows to use only Pasrimony and is actually nuking out.
Interestingly, if you want to add a little twist to the "nuking out your MP pool" situation, you can add a time limit - such is the case for CoP wyrms, most commonly Tiamat and Ouryu. In the typical cookie-cutter manaburn in the air, hold on the ground TP limitation strategy, you gather nukers and sit while it's on the ground, then when it goes airborne, you blast it, using as much MP as possible in the ~120 seconds it's in the air. You don't touch it on the ground to limit TP gain, prevent chances to spike flail and horrid roar.
If you go by this, you would certainly want the BLM. This is because a Scholar trying to be efficient just plain can't nuke out his MP pool in 2 minutes. The recasts on his spells prevent this. BLM, having more tiers of spells and more damage per attempt have a much easier time nuking out the MP pool in the self-imposed time limit. A Scholar can boost damage per shot with Ebullience, but at the cost of efficiency, and STILL not be able to nuke out sometimes just because of the tier IV recast.
At the end of the day, this is preference. There are situations where "mathematically" or "theoretically" one is more efficient than the other, but it assumes (1) perfect play on the nuker's part, (2) reasonable play on everyone else's with no flukes or "***hits the fan" moments, and (3) that your only point in being there is to nuke. You're not really talking about BLM's ability to stun or SCH's ability to play support in light arts, etc. The both clearly work for most situations.
Nermal said:
(Prudence)
We kite one, and just kite-nuke the other. Melee have a hard time with Sinuate Rush spam sometimes so it's just cleaner to kite-nuke for us. This becomes a near identical situation to Hope except more dangerous and you have to do it twice.
We kite one, and just kite-nuke the other. Melee have a hard time with Sinuate Rush spam sometimes so it's just cleaner to kite-nuke for us. This becomes a near identical situation to Hope except more dangerous and you have to do it twice.
We accidently developed an stupidly easy strat for this. Have one person outside of alliance pop Prudence, and then have someone from the alliance pull one of the fish off that person and away (we fight around the teleporter NW of the pop). At this point the popper can go ahead and die and the alliance can kill theirs as normal. As long as you pull it out of range they will not link, and the one that the alliance didn't claim will head back to (or stay at) the pop point, and depop in 3 minutes. The moment it depops, the alliances fish will open its mouth and you're free to kill. For a super easy run, it's best to get the alliance fish as low as possible without killing it in that three minutes, as it's pretty damn easy to fight while its mouth is closed. The only danger here is killing it before the other one depops (before it opens its mouth), so just be wary of that and you have a super easy prudence.
Gilgamesh.Nezea said:
I can't believe this thread is still happening. Everyone just quit now. Argument has gone absolutely nowhere. Nobody's opinion has been changed from where they started when it comes to any aspect of this debate. Edit: Oh yeah since I'm here anyway, thought I'd mention I had a chance to test my damage. SCH T4 with Ebullience did about 200 more damage than BLM T4. Yeah, Sorc Ring, Uggy Pendant and all that jazz active. ok [/thread]
Yeah I'm sure you did. Now eat your pudding epeen hearts out (almost wish I'd meritted earth potency at this point) Just wait till I get double weather or magic crit! Or break down and get other players to help or use that int pot I got
SCH's get glasses and books to look extra magically delicious.
/thread
/thread
Sorry to bring this up, but I did promise some numbers when I could.
Although I did not reproduce the numbers I shown by myself (I guess I did have help getting those numbers, somebody must have been a SCH and I forgot about it) its still something to show.
BTW, these numbers have the following: No Day bonuses, no Weather bonuses, Food: Melon Pie+1, Spirit Lantern is in effect, but all this was solo'd. Day bonuses would bring these numbers up alot...
Still keeping my promise.
Although I did not reproduce the numbers I shown by myself (I guess I did have help getting those numbers, somebody must have been a SCH and I forgot about it) its still something to show.
BTW, these numbers have the following: No Day bonuses, no Weather bonuses, Food: Melon Pie+1, Spirit Lantern is in effect, but all this was solo'd. Day bonuses would bring these numbers up alot...
Still keeping my promise.
So, er. After following this thread closely.. Mithra or Hume Sch =/= Taru BLM in term of DOT.
DMG output depends on how long you want to live.
BLM hits harder while SCH hits more accurately.
SCH struggles to hit as high as BLM without near perfect INT+ gear.
Modus Veritas is broken.
Both needs tons of gear depending on situation..
SCH has a better survivability, while BLM are balls of evil goodness.
BLM has more MP.
AMII is broken if used right.
BLM has gear to make it incredible balls of evil.
SCH is a selfish RDM.
Yeah? Someone reaching to a conclusion soon or something?
Oh hell, I'll just level both.
DMG output depends on how long you want to live.
BLM hits harder while SCH hits more accurately.
SCH struggles to hit as high as BLM without near perfect INT+ gear.
Modus Veritas is broken.
Both needs tons of gear depending on situation..
SCH has a better survivability, while BLM are balls of evil goodness.
BLM has more MP.
AMII is broken if used right.
BLM has gear to make it incredible balls of evil.
SCH is a selfish RDM.
Yeah? Someone reaching to a conclusion soon or something?
Oh hell, I'll just level both.
Remora.Belius said:
So, er. After following this thread closely.. Mithra or Hume Sch =/= Taru BLM in term of DOT. DMG output depends on how long you want to live. BLM hits harder while SCH hits more accurately. SCH struggles to hit as high as BLM without near perfect INT gear. Modus Veritas is broken. Both needs tons of gear depending on situation.. SCH has a better survivability, while BLM are balls of evil goodness. BLM has more MP. AMII is broken if used right. BLM has gear to make it incredible balls of evil. SCH is a selfish RDM. Yeah? Someone reaching to a conclusion soon or something? Oh hell, I'll just level both.
Mostly right except that more accurately thing. Remember sch has less natural skill. Even controlling the weather using klimaform and only nuking that one element only brings them up to blm. Then its gear and well blm gets lots of wonderful thigns that give to dmg and macc at the same time that sch doesnt unfortunatelly.
I don't see why SE didn't divide SCH up and give it's abilities to WHM RDM and BLM. God knows it'd make more sense. Weather magic goes to RDM though, since it's very reminiscent of 'green' magic.
It's almost like the captain planet of mages.
Mostly right except that more accurately thing. Remember sch has less natural skill. Even controlling the weather using klimaform and only nuking that one element only brings them up to blm. Then its gear and well blm gets lots of wonderful thigns that give to dmg and macc at the same time that sch doesnt unfortunatelly.
Oh I see! Which needs lots of +skill gear to overcome, and BLM has +skill and Macc/atk in those slots.
It's good to have a SCH for situations when you do not know what to expect from a mob, or from a mob that has different phases in which you can switch roles as you see fit.
Is that right? >.<
It's almost like the captain planet of mages.
Ramuh.Dasva said:
Mostly right except that more accurately thing. Remember sch has less natural skill. Even controlling the weather using klimaform and only nuking that one element only brings them up to blm. Then its gear and well blm gets lots of wonderful thigns that give to dmg and macc at the same time that sch doesnt unfortunatelly.
Oh I see! Which needs lots of +skill gear to overcome, and BLM has +skill and Macc/atk in those slots.
It's good to have a SCH for situations when you do not know what to expect from a mob, or from a mob that has different phases in which you can switch roles as you see fit.
Is that right? >.<
More epeen!
All of them are with cream puffs and 150 burn. Used M. crit grip but sadly no epeen crits this time.
Iceday w/out lantern
Iceday w/ lantern
Thundersday w/out lantern
Thundersday w/ lantern, nevermind that 1500 Thunder IV, it got cast in stun gear
Thhunder IV with day/lantern
If damn JoL would put out I could break 2k on the Thunder IV. Can't wait for my SCH friend to get close to 75 so we can duo and I can get weather along with :D.
All of them are with cream puffs and 150 burn. Used M. crit grip but sadly no epeen crits this time.
Iceday w/out lantern
Iceday w/ lantern
Thundersday w/out lantern
Thundersday w/ lantern, nevermind that 1500 Thunder IV, it got cast in stun gear
Thhunder IV with day/lantern
If damn JoL would put out I could break 2k on the Thunder IV. Can't wait for my SCH friend to get close to 75 so we can duo and I can get weather along with :D.
Necro Bump Detected!
[94 days between previous and next post]
I don't use SCH on NMs often, I only use it in a "nuke" mode for puddings to recap, and NW apollyon.
That said, I usually have to rest 1/3 less then any BLM I party with, blm/sch can still use sublimination, but they have to use it when they go to rest so the tic doesnt keep them standing. Which gives me an extra 30 seconds of charge time to get more bang for the buck.
On average I hit for around 1.2k TierIVs (Not the greatest, but it works fine for me) And the blms I see are around 1500. And I usually use back to back parsimony charges for 2 tier IVs, then finish w/ a non JA tier3+drain. Blm does 1 tier IV and drain. I use more then 2 charges a minute, but with the rest time I recover all missing charges usually, get up when I have around 10~ seconds left on final charge.
As for SCH healing, If you talked curing only.. yeah, Sch wins. But I would have a hard time arguing against a whm/sch with the new JAs. MIsery is awesome for mobs that constantly do nasty status effect AoEs. And this WHM i saw w/ mystic weapon. That right there makes WHM instant win.
Sch is great at enfeebling mobs that dont have super resists, I still prefer Rdm for things like Faust. Sch is definitely quicker for mobs that aren't death if you resist once.
Also, for NW Apollyon, Sch is win against Behemoth boss, Alacrity>>TierIV, if you do it right, can get it off and get out of range before meteor goes off. Do it 2~3 times a lap around the "lake"
That said, I usually have to rest 1/3 less then any BLM I party with, blm/sch can still use sublimination, but they have to use it when they go to rest so the tic doesnt keep them standing. Which gives me an extra 30 seconds of charge time to get more bang for the buck.
On average I hit for around 1.2k TierIVs (Not the greatest, but it works fine for me) And the blms I see are around 1500. And I usually use back to back parsimony charges for 2 tier IVs, then finish w/ a non JA tier3+drain. Blm does 1 tier IV and drain. I use more then 2 charges a minute, but with the rest time I recover all missing charges usually, get up when I have around 10~ seconds left on final charge.
As for SCH healing, If you talked curing only.. yeah, Sch wins. But I would have a hard time arguing against a whm/sch with the new JAs. MIsery is awesome for mobs that constantly do nasty status effect AoEs. And this WHM i saw w/ mystic weapon. That right there makes WHM instant win.
Sch is great at enfeebling mobs that dont have super resists, I still prefer Rdm for things like Faust. Sch is definitely quicker for mobs that aren't death if you resist once.
Also, for NW Apollyon, Sch is win against Behemoth boss, Alacrity>>TierIV, if you do it right, can get it off and get out of range before meteor goes off. Do it 2~3 times a lap around the "lake"
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