Official BLM Epeen Vs SCH Epeen Thread!! Keep These Fights Clean!

Fair enouph Blazza.

I dont believe his reasoning is sound becuase vulgarity isnt a form of reasoning.

My "reasoning" is based on reality and I still am not lying myself.

BLMs do damage, why argue against it? The so called math wizards were using a damage calculator by the way. If the difference to you is just weather than that is an admission that the number is possible. Also note the guy has an Obi which adds 10 mab for matching day, 10 for matching weather, and 25 for matching double weather. Obviously day and/or weather was a factor since it was equiped. Hello!?

Oh yea. All am2 have the same damage multiplier wo with Obi earth day and double weather out there you can hit a pretty mean Quake 2. I would like to see that. I dont need to see it to believe the damage I already figure it would be very high with the understanding I have on the subject. It is not so far fetched.

If my claim is unbelievable than you don't need to believe that there are dozens of blms on my server that I've seen out nuke my Mithra blm. Go ahead and don't believe it that is ok.

No. All you are doing is siding with a blowhard because "theres more of them".

Picking sides isn't whats needed here. Just a friendly addition to the conversation. Is that reasonable? Do I seem like a person who would go to silly thread and lie about cartoon games and numbers produced within? Have some damn faith in humanity already. I am losing my faith in FFXI sanity.

I lol'd (in a good way)

me too

Before scholars I remember having an argument with a pup enthusiast buddy of mine about which nuke better btwn blm and pup.

fun times

Was Having alittle Fun >:D

Here's how you use SCH! (I almost died though, ended up with 87 HP)

618 MP if you're interested Btw XD (used Manifestation and Ebu)

The issue is that Porkg is claiming to have done this damage without support, as Mount Z can't get ice weather, that would mean he didn't have that extra bonus from ice weather unless he was lying and had SCH in the party (or some other help such as blu, brd, cor or smn). It's not that his damage isn't possible to achieve with his gear, because it is (and the screenshot is proof of that), but it is impossible for him to do that damage without outside help.

I'm not picking on you at all, and you have been quite civil, but either you didn't read the whole thread or you're misinformed, either way, you're backing the wrong guy.

I'm just amused at how many sch vs blm topics there are, yet not a single one of them EVER mentions pup at all, nor are there ever any pup vs blm threads to be seen.

Keep in mind however, that this is only about 1/4 of what this job can do. It's also a powerful solo job, physical DD, and healer as well. You might think of rdm as a jack of all trades, master of none, but pup is more like the mime class. It gets all the goodies without falling into the trap of nothing to set it apart. In this case, pup has the advantages of low hate, high flexibility (sharpshot has peircing ranged attacks, valoredge slashing attacks, sharpshot and mage frames have blunt melee attacks, and spiritreaver/stormwaker both have powerful nukes.) Even if there is no weakness, the automaton can still heal the party.

On top of that, pup has a few quirks of its own, such as shedding automatons hate, unlimited MP, runcasting, a spirits within-like ws for valoredge that heals it, attachments that can even ignore some of a monsters def/evasion (pdif/level correction nullifications, aka the automaton treats kirin almost like an even match mob with higher stats), a double attack attachment that when stacked with optic fiber and condenser to keep 3 thunder maneuvers up, is 40% double attack rate =D, and other lovely goodies such as a low hate flash. Pup has decent evasion rating, lots of evasion traits, and access to tons of evasion gear (plus we can guard :s), and a curebot to heal him, making it a slow but strong soloer. It has vlaoredge/sharpshot to deal physical damage, and soulsoother can cure a party by tossing cure V every 15 seconds or so (can use deactivate to cast cure V back to back once a minute too, as deactivate resets recast timer to 0), and better yet, the cures an automaton fires off generate NO enmity whatsoever. You could have someone dia a mob, get smacked around for hours, and have the automaton cure them without it ever pulling hate. (this saved us one kirin when kiter couldn't hold hate as he was new. The whm kept dying, and finally things got into order when I had oni keep him alive while adds were taken care of.

There's a few kinks to work out, namely with aspir/drain AI being annoying, and the oh so lovely na over cure priority that gets the master killed all the time, that SE refuses to fix after over a year of complaints <3, but pup is a solid and flexible job that really is a powerhouse in any situation if done right. (even meripo; I've outparsed even merited/great geared wars/sams in colibri parties, though dragoons give me trouble with piercing bonus and that damn flying rat that puts them 3-5% higher than Oni and I)

Oh, and it's fun. '-')b

Ah I see. Jee if that true than I suppose I may have projected myself upon Korpg where I wouldn't have the motive yall claim so I wouldn't believe another would. Anyways thanks for the feedback and info and stuff. I apolagize if I was too defensive. I'm not calling anyone liar though, I'll just leave it alone.

Peace^

Pup has had a LOT of bad rep, I'm not sure if it's been patched to be a lot better than when it was first released or what, but the term lolpup is way too ingrained in everyones minds. On top of that, the only people you hear about doing anything half decent with pup are seriously well geared, and really know their ***. Correct me if I'm wrong, but while an GOOD pup is a force to be reckoned with, an average pup is deserving of the lolpup title, whereas an average player of most other jobs will still contribute something. Also pup is a very complicated job (at least it sounds like it from everything you just said), BLM isn't.

People have often told me that blu is a hard job to play well, which I've never agreed with, but since I've levelled brd and started on rdm and blm, I see what they were talking about. Pup to me sounds even harder.

I think Pup will have to be able to do about 3.5k nukes before the majority of the community gives it a fair go. I myself don't see myself ever levelling (or unlocking) it, but I'd still like to see what one can really do. The only 75 pup I know has 21 75 jobs, so she doesn't really count :p

Just in case anyone has fail to note it to get similar dmg the schs needed ebullience. To get the same efficieny per spell if the blm is using parsimony they need parsimony. So if your using charges twice as fast and getting the twice as fast evens out. Yes you can get 4 sublimation vs our 2!?! Really though well be wearing a refresh body so its more like 3 vs 4. Well really more like 3something to 4 since you will miss tics waiting on reusing sublimation and if the blm has morrigan when your casting you'll miss a tic possibly over them. Then if both players get refresh or can you get exactly the same. And what happens when both players blow there load doing to big nukes in 1 2min period and have 0-1 and 0 strats? Who is more mp efficient without any strats yeah blm easily.

How can you have 21 75 jobs when there are only 20 jobs in total? lol

I know it's not the subject but...



How you can do that ?
You must have 1 light maneuver to trigger a cure 5 and maybe 2 ice maneuvers to recast speed

Manabooster will make recast 6 sec faster
optic fiber will make recast 20% faster, 20% of 6 sec = 1.2 sec

soulsoother cast every 26 sec, every 20 sec with 2 ice maneuvers, every 18.8 sec with 2 ice maneuvers + 1 light maneuver.

I miss something ?

Damn, someone asked that faster than I thought :p

http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=283536

And her tarutaru mule with 75 BLM (not shown though)

http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=284877

This is completely untrue just using simply rules of math. A certain amount of int will add the same amount of dmg given a certain MAB*staff*day*otherstuff that is multiplied. Now as your D value which is your (V+(dint)M) gets bigger it will actually become less effective precentagewise so how much int is equivalent to how much MAB will start favoring MAB more.

I've said it a million times already and I will say it one final time before I quit this thread forever.

SCH does not need Ebullience to compete with a BLM nuke!! It is not at all necessary to use two charges per nuke because there are many other ways of compensating for the difference in MAB.

The difference in damage without Ebullience taking everything into consideration is VERY small. And it's small enough that even if you're going to argue that the BLM's nuke will do -slightly- more damage if the SCH doesn't use Ebullience, well the SCH's MP cost is 10% less anyway, so the efficiency is roughly equal (if not still better) without the use of any stratagems. If the BLM is /SCH, the argument about 10% MP cost is not true, but the difference in damage is still so small that it's completely absurd to claim that a SCH needs to use an entire extra charge just to match the efficiency. The extra charge will make the SCH nuke's damage SKYROCKET above the BLM's, not just match it.

Oh yes, pup when it first came out was terribly weak. There was no merits, no teir II merits, none of the lovely enkidu/usu/pln. gear/relic, no oberon's sainti, no spiritreaver/soulsoother heads, the automaton's skills were around B level? I think, and the only weaponskills the frames had were the ones they came with.

I started when the newer attachments started to show up, such as ice maker and flame holder and the automaton combat skills were raised to A in their area of expertise (ranged for SS, melee for VE, magic for mage frames). I seriously couldn't have timed leveling the job better, as when I hit level 46, the teir II ws and new mage heads came out, and I happily dinged into daze, wowing the party and terrifying the colibris, and enjoying my cure V bot while soloing...until I'd get blinded and oni would blindna me at 20 hp left and I'd go squish. --;

Then when I reached level 69, the teir III ws were introduced, and I enjoyed the ultimate brokenness of magic mortar prenerf

(yay) http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh196/Psionphoenix/img_20080315_214117.png (the blm we helped complained we blew the sandals up, lol)

and the fun that was 1.4k armor piercers on the unsuspecting goobues in rolanbery fields (S). And weeped at bone crushers uselessness, but oh well, 2/3 isn't so bad.

And when I hit 75, teir I and II merits had just recently come out, and soon after dynamis started to drop pup relic, and I went 5/6 in 3 months. (damn you, pantin cape! you still elude me!) I also broke the record for 5/5 AF+1 in a job in all of FFXI history, getting them all in 2 months. :O

It's been a long journey, but I have never once regretted it, nor once gotten tired. Even now I'm constantly finding out new things about my job and limits I thought I couldn't break, obliterated. New bosses, new events, new solos... tackled and won with flying colors, often being first on parse, or being the savior of the day. My linkshell never once even asked for my blu, and even though they knew i had blm and rdm at 75, never asked me to come as either because they knew what I could offer and loved it. Sea, sky, limbus, dynamis, znms, random NMs, KSNM, assault, meripo... I was welcome to each, and no one questioned my job choice. Our ls is in hiatus due to school, but we'll be doing new events soon enough, and I can't wait to try my hand at them with my friends!

More wrong info. Day/weather adds +10% dmg. Much much better than MAB unless your MAB/MDB is equal to or less then 1. So 10% with day or weather 20% for both 25% for double weather and 35% for all 3. Note that blm relic pants add 5% always on appropriate day/spell but you still cant go past the 35% cap. As far as quake I'd have to do the math rq. Being able to have the same V value but only losing 5int from different staffs would be interesting to go from +15% to 35%. Especially since I wearing relic pants does nothing for me then so I can switch back to mahat making up for the lost staff in exactly. Of course have to get a little lucky on getting Double earth weather on earth day and the loss of 10MAB from using ice/lightning spells will suck a little but eyeballing I should still do about more then 13%ish then freeze 2 with day only.

Totally off topic here, but seems like you levelled pup about the same time I levelled blu (although blu was my only 75 for over 2 years), I'm still only 4/5 on AF+1 though... Mind you, I only actually use 2 of those pieces anyway :p

As far as cure every 15 seconds, I was just eyeballing it, but when I went to check, Oniwaka took 24 seconds to cast with only light maneuver, but only 15 seconds to cast again with light + ice. I'm confused x.x That wasn't even two ice... I wonder if wiki's information is wrong/doesn't work the same with cures and enfeebles, or if my counting is...really, REALLY off. needs moar testing. >.<

The math and SS are already up. All the way pimped sch and blm do about the same with ebullience. The only way to compensate for the lack of as much native MAB/int without um more MAB or int gear and weather. Guess what blm gets better gear selection lol. And 10% you get from weather at the loss of 5-6 int that the blm is still getting is only worth about 13MAB less at even higher MAB values. While blm has 18-22MAB native on you. Tell me how your hitting similar values with the less base int way less MAB from weather that doesn't even come close to making up for the MAB difference? And if you say SS that merely exactly makes up for the natice int difference and the lose of a int belt. If the blm has weather either naturally or because a sch gave him it he will completely blow away a similarly gear sch even with ebbulience. Also blm have a decent amount more mp too

This will probably be seen as flame-bait or just spamming, but this thread is seriously becoming addictive and more-or-less makes me want to un-retire and level SCH. </3

Also, I'm getting kind of sad at the thought of this thread dying. PLEASE STAY WITH US A BIT LONGER.

Ok, now he's taking 22 seconds between cures, then he seems to go quick again... I'm starting to wonder if perhaps when he enfeebles, the recast is shorter than if he cures? The first mob he enfeebled a lot due to me not taking much damage, second one I was naked and he back to back cured a few times, taking longer. :s Someone really should test that. >.>;

Although, I've never heard of that 35% damage cap, that means that if you happen to get day and double weather that you'd be better off NOT using AF2 legs set?

+35% is the dmg cap for day/weather effects. So yeah unless 3 int is the best you can do on legs don't use AF2 with day AND double weather. Well I supposed you can use them and not use obi and like... no that's just stupid and has like 0 chance of working out better and still not high working out as well.

DO IT.

I don't care about the math or the SS. Based on my own experience my perfectly geared BLM will never hit anywhere near the same numbers as my perfectly geared SCH when it comes to T4 if I'm using Ebullience. And when I say my own experience, it is a lot of experience, seeing how for the whole time I've played this game up until a week ago, SCH and BLM have been my only jobs. I've played enough of both of them to make this claim and be 100% sure of it.

Too tired and lazy right now to go back through and look at the SS but if the numbers were similar then there is something wrong, possibly SCH not using their weather bonus, or the SCH had ***gear in comparison.

It has been proven a SCH can beat a BLM when the SCH has better gear, for equal (this is best measured as perfect) gear a SCH can match BLM with Ebullience.

Your experience does not matter, this is a discussion about SCH vs BLM and this should be based simply on maths and analysis of the numbers not "When I was in mount Z I beat a BLM with NQ staves".

Numbers/Maths > your experience (and that stands for any one)

Blizzard IV definitely had the spirit lantern active, and I'm pretty sure that the Freeze II did also. Only thing besides that was cream puff. Also no burn on it as you can see from second picture.

This is the gear I currently use, the SS of the puddings was back in April, so I know that I had at least 2 less int (No abyssal yet and no int merits yet). No augment on the weskit also.



I think my BLM is pretty good but still a couple big pieces missing. 2500+ really isnt out of the question with Novio and finished int merits. Gonna try next iceday i can get on and see if I can do any better.

That magic damage calculator is proving to be pretty cool once again lol, but did you actually have +32 INT rather than +31? Either that or the flan actually had 88 INT rather than 89, is that possible?

'Cause yeah, I punched in your stats and it didn't quite come out right, but add one extra INT, or subtract one from the flan and I came up with 1794 and 2457. I'm assuming the 1 difference with 1794 is from rounding before applying the lantern though.

I just went outside in the game and ran a quick and inbiased test between BLM and SCH on nuke damage. It was water day so I didn't bother with Sorc pants or Obi on BLM. I made sure to nuke enouph to varify the basic value of the spell. On SCH I used weather Obi, Morgana's Cotehardie, and basic good nuke gear and Ebullience each time.

Mob = Aht Urghan Attercop: they take regular magic damage and are close to mog.

Spell = Thunder IV

BLM/RDM = 1286

SCH/RDM = 1315

SCH/BLM + 1447

In past posts I have indicated that it takes sch/blm to over damage BLM on a nuke but it is apparent to me that /rdm can pull it off after this quick test. Note: Since I was using Morgana's Cotehardie for this on SCH half of the spells were resisted.

They have like a 3 lvl range so yes it is possible. I did one that calculated out to 86 int.