Vet. So You Want To PUG.
Vet. So you want to PUG.
Okay
eliroo said: »
Non REMA bard has 3 songs with a +3 linos and no honor march.
So, if we want to keep this realistic, just like we're ruling out Ghorn, I would rule out +3 Linos too.
We're left to overall +2 songs. That's minus 2 compared to a RMEA bard.
One less song.
No honor march (probably biggest impact)
No 13+mins SV songs/fulltime Marcato.
That's quite the difference!
Quote:
All of the hard endgame content revolves around people having REMAs.
Divergence ones for instance, and Ambuscade weapons.
Those can get pretty close to RMEA.
If we want to look at things in detail, sometimes they're actually better than some (allegedly inferior) RMEA. List of which RMEA is trumped by these other options grows even larger if you rule out R15 RMEA.
So again, I could see an alliance of competent players do Wave3 with those weapons just as fine as with RMEA.
Less space for errors, bit slower, but totally viable.
Talking about same exact high quality items/sets, just different weapons.
Losing RMEA BRD and at the same time Idris GEO too, well, it's possible but much harder to compensate for that, if you ask me.
Performance would take quite a serious hit at that point.
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Nothing, literally nothing, is designed around REMA. Unless you want to claim SE is somehow the worst possible dev team in the world, since you never want to balance around top tier play and gear in an MMO/cooperative game. Not only does that ruin power fantasy, it makes bis mandatory, which is never a good decision.
I doubt SE balances content around RMEA, but at the same time I'm sure they take into consideration how widespread they are and they probably take for granted that in any given average group tackling the latest end game content, it's highly likely there's gonna be at least a bunch of them.
Us players gifted by multiple RMEAs often get unawaringly biased about them and take them for granted, overestimating the difference between having them and other avaialble options.
At the same time though the more players without them in your alliance, the more performance will take a hit, up to an extreme scenario where in an alliance of 18 people nobody has RMEA, not even the support jobs, and in that case some content might start to feel kinda unbalanced indeed.
Yea when I mentioned a full group without REMA I was mostly talking about having supports without REMA. Thanks to ambuscade weapons (Sometimes a better option) and the Dream weapons (Though on their own REMA tier imo) DDs have some other viable options. They work because their power level is on par with REMAs thought not because they are necessarily worse which is critical to the argument.
[+]
eliroo said: »
I'm fairly certain there is a bulk of content that you can't do without at least one person having a REMA.
I look forward to seeing an 18 man alliance smash Wave 3 Windurst without a single REMA among them.
I look forward to seeing an 18 man alliance smash Wave 3 Windurst without a single REMA among them.
I'm pretty sure it's doable with a bit more organization.
eliroo said: »
Non REMA bard has 3 songs with a +3 linos and no honor march.
You can full time a 4th song with CC or do brd rotation for 6 songs. That gives you 2 for marches and 2 for madrigal and 2 more for whatever else you need.
Madrigal will be a bit weak without rema, but You can also rotate cor for hunter and assign 1 extra bubble for torpor, and use rdm for distract 3. That should solve majority of acc issue without brd Rema.
Finally if you are short on time you can sac all fetters.
In terms of idris, you can compensate weaker frailty with more aggressive use of armor break and dnc steps.
I'm pretty sure wave 3 is doable without rema since a decked out party can clear all fetter+boss with like an hr left without using brd/cor rotation nor use break/steps on every mob, so a lesser geared pt certain can clear with less time left if they sac/rotate support properly.
A no Rema run just requires more work and since most established endgame ls has Rema, there's no reason to do the content hard way. That doesnt mean it cant be done.
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Nothing, literally nothing, is designed around REMA. Unless you want to claim SE is somehow the worst possible dev team in the world, since you never want to balance around top tier play and gear in an MMO/cooperative game. Not only does that ruin power fantasy, it makes bis mandatory, which is never a good decision.
But when you hit the final high end stuff: Reisenjima HELMs, Divergence W3, Ou, VD vol1 Ambuscade... etc. You basically do.
Lesser content and it's just a "win more" scenario, to borrow from my MTG days.
What's dumber than dumb is when you have people shouting for VE Ambuscade Vol2 and asking for REMA <<veteran>>.... like... that ***can be solo'd in spark gear easily. And if you wear spark armor, you are bad and should feel bad.
And I'm just talking physical DD here. The situation is a lot more nuanced than that for BRD/COR/GEO, WHM, and BLM/RDM/SCH.
FaeQueenCory said: »
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Nothing, literally nothing, is designed around REMA. Unless you want to claim SE is somehow the worst possible dev team in the world, since you never want to balance around top tier play and gear in an MMO/cooperative game. Not only does that ruin power fantasy, it makes bis mandatory, which is never a good decision.
But when you hit the final high end stuff: Reisenjima HELMs, Divergence W3, Ou, VD vol1 Ambuscade... etc. You basically do.
Lesser content and it's just a "win more" scenario, to borrow from my MTG days.
What's dumber than dumb is when you have people shouting for VE Ambuscade Vol2 and asking for REMA <<veteran>>.... like... that ***can be solo'd in spark gear easily. And if you wear spark armor, you are bad and should feel bad.
And I'm just talking physical DD here. The situation is a lot more nuanced than that for BRD/COR/GEO, WHM, and BLM/RDM/SCH.
His point is that you can "win" even higher lv content without rema because the stats of these content isn't THAT high. Its just going to be slower than a decked out pt, and needs more extra organization. For example it's easier to get an idris and rema brd than doing brd rotation and make your war do break and find a dnc for steps. That doesnt mean it's impossible.
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Nothing, literally nothing, is designed around REMA. Unless you want to claim SE is somehow the worst possible dev team in the world, since you never want to balance around top tier play and gear in an MMO/cooperative game. Not only does that ruin power fantasy, it makes bis mandatory, which is never a good decision.
Legit dude go beat Heroines Combat without a single REMA, see how that turns out.... Some content IS impossible without it. You need a full +3 AF Bard with Best in Slot Magic accuracy set just to land Lullaby while getting a few resists.
So yeah, until you prove me and everyone else who has beaten Heroines Combat, no one can say it does not require BiS Rema people. Minimal of 5 people BiS, you can leech someone in there though, if you cheatsy doodle.
Quote:
I'm pretty sure wave 3 is doable without rema since a decked out party can clear all fetter+boss with like an hr left without using brd/cor rotation nor use break/steps on every mob, so a lesser geared pt certain can clear with less time left if they sac/rotate support properly./quote]
This is true, Back when the whole Corsair potency and Geomancy glitch and they were broke our group managed to clear atleast 4 Fetters while experimenting. If you organise it properly that's easily doable.
This is true, Back when the whole Corsair potency and Geomancy glitch and they were broke our group managed to clear atleast 4 Fetters while experimenting. If you organise it properly that's easily doable.
The real FFXI challenge. Do all the content with a group full of people w/o REMAs. Gogogogogo
[+]
Shining One/Naegling/Tauret existing take a loooooot of meaning out of that challenge.
Asura.Shiraj said: »
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Nothing, literally nothing, is designed around REMA. Unless you want to claim SE is somehow the worst possible dev team in the world, since you never want to balance around top tier play and gear in an MMO/cooperative game. Not only does that ruin power fantasy, it makes bis mandatory, which is never a good decision.
Legit dude go beat Heroines Combat without a single REMA, see how that turns out.... Some content IS impossible without it. You need a full +3 AF Bard with Best in Slot Magic accuracy set just to land Lullaby while getting a few resists.
+3 AF isn't Rema though. So using it doesn't count as Rema brd.
You can use different strategy to solve macc issue, such as rotating macc roll for brd and CC it.
Perhaps in this discussion the better term to use is "good gear/strategy/experience/skill" rather than just "rema". If you bring an established group of experienced/well geared/serious player with mastered/+3 gears fat chance is that they can still beat every single content leaving their rema in MH with some tweaks in strategy. If you try to do the same with a new player that just started for a month with ambu+1 gears they probably can't do the same.
So it's not really Rema that's being the requirement, it's more than just that.
My strategy (to kill NMs) is to take everyone that has a REMA weapon and we all hit it till it dies. And if that doesn't work we get at least 3 summoners to do some work while I go afk.
Afania said: »
Asura.Shiraj said: »
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Nothing, literally nothing, is designed around REMA. Unless you want to claim SE is somehow the worst possible dev team in the world, since you never want to balance around top tier play and gear in an MMO/cooperative game. Not only does that ruin power fantasy, it makes bis mandatory, which is never a good decision.
Legit dude go beat Heroines Combat without a single REMA, see how that turns out.... Some content IS impossible without it. You need a full +3 AF Bard with Best in Slot Magic accuracy set just to land Lullaby while getting a few resists.
+3 AF isn't Rema though. So using it doesn't count as Rema brd.
You can use different strategy to solve macc issue, such as rotating macc roll for brd and CC it.
Perhaps in this discussion the better term to use is "good gear/strategy/experience/skill" rather than just "rema". If you bring an established group of experienced/well geared/serious player with mastered/+3 gears fat chance is that they can still beat every single content leaving their rema in MH with some tweaks in strategy. If you try to do the same with a new player that just started for a month with ambu+1 gears they probably can't do the same.
So it's not really Rema that's being the requirement, it's more than just that.
Not exactly, When I beat Iroha Master trial our bard had R15 Carn with BiS Macc set and still got a lot of resists on lullaby. Also Iroha's Accuracy requirement without vorseals is insane. No way that's being reached without full buffs.
Even with Rostam Hunter's roll + 2 Madrigals at full potency capping acc is hard. Not to mention geo bubbles being nerfed by 75%. Even if you can cap Accuracy you'll never do enough dps.
It's just not possible.
I'd love for someone to beat that fight without a single Rema. it's literally impossible. It has been designed that way. Doing the fight "legit" without killing adds is borderline impossible to begin with just due to how much damage all mobs do and I think there is SO much luck determining whether or not you win killing adds.
I don't think SE meant for skipping adds to be a thing.
People who shout for "vets" are asking to be carried. No matter how much some want to deny this or try to give their own definition, we all know this in our hearts.
So when an actual vet joins, they know they will have to carry the group. When a non-vet joins, the leader will never figure it out until after several fails. But they sneaked in in hopes that they will get carried.
Personally, I don't care what people do. I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing. But just say the truth.
So when an actual vet joins, they know they will have to carry the group. When a non-vet joins, the leader will never figure it out until after several fails. But they sneaked in in hopes that they will get carried.
Personally, I don't care what people do. I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing. But just say the truth.
Asura.Shiraj said: »
Afania said: »
Asura.Shiraj said: »
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Nothing, literally nothing, is designed around REMA. Unless you want to claim SE is somehow the worst possible dev team in the world, since you never want to balance around top tier play and gear in an MMO/cooperative game. Not only does that ruin power fantasy, it makes bis mandatory, which is never a good decision.
Legit dude go beat Heroines Combat without a single REMA, see how that turns out.... Some content IS impossible without it. You need a full +3 AF Bard with Best in Slot Magic accuracy set just to land Lullaby while getting a few resists.
+3 AF isn't Rema though. So using it doesn't count as Rema brd.
You can use different strategy to solve macc issue, such as rotating macc roll for brd and CC it.
Perhaps in this discussion the better term to use is "good gear/strategy/experience/skill" rather than just "rema". If you bring an established group of experienced/well geared/serious player with mastered/+3 gears fat chance is that they can still beat every single content leaving their rema in MH with some tweaks in strategy. If you try to do the same with a new player that just started for a month with ambu+1 gears they probably can't do the same.
So it's not really Rema that's being the requirement, it's more than just that.
Not exactly, When I beat Iroha Master trial our bard had R15 Carn with BiS Macc set and still got a lot of resists on lullaby. Also Iroha's Accuracy requirement without vorseals is insane. No way that's being reached without full buffs.
Even with Rostam Hunter's roll + 2 Madrigals at full potency capping acc is hard. Not to mention geo bubbles being nerfed by 75%. Even if you can cap Accuracy you'll never do enough dps.
It's just not possible.
I'd love for someone to beat that fight without a single Rema. it's literally impossible. It has been designed that way. Doing the fight "legit" without killing adds is borderline impossible to begin with just due to how much damage all mobs do and I think there is SO much luck determining whether or not you win killing adds.
I don't think SE meant for skipping adds to be a thing.
[+]
I wish i had memes... i lost all my memes with my phone... F in chat
[+]
Asura.Shiraj said: »
Not exactly, When I beat Iroha Master trial our bard had R15 Carn with BiS Macc set and still got a lot of resists on lullaby. Also Iroha's Accuracy requirement without vorseals is insane. No way that's being reached without full buffs.
Checking the stats on r15 carn, its 255 skill + 70 acc.
Tauret has 250+40 and barfawc has 255+50. Surely you can make up the 20-33 macc gap with macc roll or /nin dual wield 2 high macc weapon no?
I mean, the fight was beaten before r15 update so....
Edit: you can also switch to focus/languor for a short time whenever brd casts spells then switch back to add a bit more macc than your max gears.
He doesn't actually care about whether it's beatable without REMA or not, just wants to plug how cool he is for doing them(over 2 years of gear creep after release, in the case of all except Iroha).
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
He doesn't actually care about whether it's beatable without REMA or not, just wants to plug how cool he is for doing them(over 2 years of gear creep after release, in the case of all except Iroha).
Half right lol, but I am interested to see if it is possible tbh.
The E-peen with master trials is only a small part of wanting to do them though, it's mostly cos they're fun. The achievement for beating first 3 is mostly personal joy, nothing actually worth bragging about. But Iroha was somewhat more awesome to have beaten just because of how *** it is with dumb mechanics. Like it's been over 5-6 months lol and it's still kinda cool to me so i like that.
Beating Iroha MT without RMEA sounds difficult but certainly not impossible.
Stacking macc for Lullaby is pointless in this fight since it's all about rotating CC/Troubadour/Marcato/ES with a bit of luck on WC/RD.
Acc requirements are high but completely manageable with a RDM as main healer.
Stacking macc for Lullaby is pointless in this fight since it's all about rotating CC/Troubadour/Marcato/ES with a bit of luck on WC/RD.
Acc requirements are high but completely manageable with a RDM as main healer.
Carbuncle.Papesse said: »
Beating Iroha MT without RMEA sounds difficult but certainly not impossible.
Stacking macc for Lullaby is pointless in this fight since it's all about rotating CC/Troubadour/Marcato/ES with a bit of luck on WC/RD.
Acc requirements are high but completely manageable with a RDM as main healer.
Stacking macc for Lullaby is pointless in this fight since it's all about rotating CC/Troubadour/Marcato/ES with a bit of luck on WC/RD.
Acc requirements are high but completely manageable with a RDM as main healer.
The acc requirements are reachable yeah, but the DPS check seems rough. Most groups fully decked barely do 10-20k WS. So it'd be way lower without rema DDs and buffs.
Also whenever we done that fight we had bad RD/WC luck, to win we had to end up going Brd/Blm and pray. Rarely got lucky which sucked, and did result in a wipe or 2 mid-way.
Asura.Shiraj said: »
Carbuncle.Papesse said: »
Beating Iroha MT without RMEA sounds difficult but certainly not impossible.
Stacking macc for Lullaby is pointless in this fight since it's all about rotating CC/Troubadour/Marcato/ES with a bit of luck on WC/RD.
Acc requirements are high but completely manageable with a RDM as main healer.
Stacking macc for Lullaby is pointless in this fight since it's all about rotating CC/Troubadour/Marcato/ES with a bit of luck on WC/RD.
Acc requirements are high but completely manageable with a RDM as main healer.
The acc requirements are reachable yeah, but the DPS check seems rough. Most groups fully decked barely do 10-20k WS. So it'd be way lower without rema DDs and buffs.
Wouldnt say way lower since DD rema has identical dps as many other none rema alternatives like su5 or ambu weapons. So the real difference is support rema.
Like other said, you can use rdm to substitute brd rema and dnc steps/shell crusher/+2 neck to substitute idris bonus. If these groups do 10k-20k ws without rdm dnc shell crusher then adding these jobs and ws would add a bit more dps.
My point is that theres always room to improve dps via better pt coordination, such as using jobs with debuff ability or support job rotation. Even if "fully decked out group" do 10k-20k ws in these content like you described, if they are not already absusing every none rema debuff available then fat chance is that a pt without rema support can do similar dps with those JAs as long as every other slots are bis or close.
For a master trial you cant exactly just say add this buff or this other one. You are limited to a 6man party. Now I don't know the combination for said party but rather sure a dancer does not fit into it.
For wave3 dyna or something like aeonics/tumult curator (people still care about him right?) you can do whatever you want with 18 people.
Side note using a su5 and a +2 neck in place of rema seems sorta cheating for the scenario since it will cost more or equal currency and effort vs an AG rema.
For wave3 dyna or something like aeonics/tumult curator (people still care about him right?) you can do whatever you want with 18 people.
Side note using a su5 and a +2 neck in place of rema seems sorta cheating for the scenario since it will cost more or equal currency and effort vs an AG rema.
Asura.Sechs said: »
eliroo said: »
Non REMA bard has 3 songs with a +3 linos and no honor march.
So, if we want to keep this realistic, just like we're ruling out Ghorn, I would rule out +3 Linos too.
We're left to overall +2 songs. That's minus 2 compared to a RMEA bard.
One less song.
No honor march (probably biggest impact)
No 13+mins SV songs/fulltime Marcato.
That's quite the difference!
Quote:
All of the hard endgame content revolves around people having REMAs.
Divergence ones for instance, and Ambuscade weapons.
Those can get pretty close to RMEA.
If we want to look at things in detail, sometimes they're actually better than some (allegedly inferior) RMEA. List of which RMEA is trumped by these other options grows even larger if you rule out R15 RMEA.
So again, I could see an alliance of competent players do Wave3 with those weapons just as fine as with RMEA.
Less space for errors, bit slower, but totally viable.
Talking about same exact high quality items/sets, just different weapons.
Losing RMEA BRD and at the same time Idris GEO too, well, it's possible but much harder to compensate for that, if you ask me.
Performance would take quite a serious hit at that point.
Blurred harp +1 iirc has +1 song.
hobo said: »
For a master trial you cant exactly just say add this buff or this other one. You are limited to a 6man party. Now I don't know the combination for said party but rather sure a dancer does not fit into it.
For wave3 dyna or something like aeonics/tumult curator (people still care about him right?) you can do whatever you want with 18 people.
Side note using a su5 and a +2 neck in place of rema seems sorta cheating for the scenario since it will cost more or equal currency and effort vs an AG rema.
For wave3 dyna or something like aeonics/tumult curator (people still care about him right?) you can do whatever you want with 18 people.
Side note using a su5 and a +2 neck in place of rema seems sorta cheating for the scenario since it will cost more or equal currency and effort vs an AG rema.
I dont see how a dnc couldnt work. Dnc thrives in lowman, low utility content, given it brings both good dps and good utility with buffs, debuffs and heals. Same with blu, good in content without max buffs, not nearly as worthwhile in content with max buffs. Its their niche.
I agree yes, but my thing is Iroha master trial. If you're saying it's probably possible without rema, i'd like to see it. From every angle I can think of it does not seem possible at all.
Reasons why are this:
If you don't have as potent buffs because of no rema then you will struggle to reach Acc and att cap.
If you try and reach those Acc and attack cap you sacrifice other stuff such as survival. Survival in Iroha is extremely *** hard. Her magic bursts hit any tank for 2-3k+ and can reach 5-6k+ if you get caught in any gear other than DT/MDT example, casting Utsusemi.
Not to mention her obnoxious AoE spam which is the reason so many groups wipe to her to this date. Just 1 of her TP moves is enough to 1 shot a DD, even in 50% DT. Most of the time you are being spammed non-stop with AoE damage and the tank is being pummeled into the ground, none stop debuffs, buffs being dispelled and add the fact that the adds hit like absolute trucks to begin with.
Also a side note, if you bring a Rdm to Iroha you lose out on another DD or Cor. A RDM will never be able to main heal Iroha. That alone is physically impossible due to the demands of it. Any WHMs who have beaten Iroha will all agree that Iroha is probably the hardest thing ever to WHM for and no way any other job could do it.
Reasons why are this:
If you don't have as potent buffs because of no rema then you will struggle to reach Acc and att cap.
If you try and reach those Acc and attack cap you sacrifice other stuff such as survival. Survival in Iroha is extremely *** hard. Her magic bursts hit any tank for 2-3k+ and can reach 5-6k+ if you get caught in any gear other than DT/MDT example, casting Utsusemi.
Not to mention her obnoxious AoE spam which is the reason so many groups wipe to her to this date. Just 1 of her TP moves is enough to 1 shot a DD, even in 50% DT. Most of the time you are being spammed non-stop with AoE damage and the tank is being pummeled into the ground, none stop debuffs, buffs being dispelled and add the fact that the adds hit like absolute trucks to begin with.
Also a side note, if you bring a Rdm to Iroha you lose out on another DD or Cor. A RDM will never be able to main heal Iroha. That alone is physically impossible due to the demands of it. Any WHMs who have beaten Iroha will all agree that Iroha is probably the hardest thing ever to WHM for and no way any other job could do it.
hobo said: »
but rather sure a dancer does not fit into it.
The world 1st iroha clear has dnc in it and they didn't even use brd sleep easy method.
So yeah I feel people are being nay sayers for the sake of it lol.
hobo said: »
Side note using a su5 and a +2 neck in place of rema seems sorta cheating for the scenario since it will cost more or equal currency and effort vs an AG rema.
The point of this discussion is about content should be beatable without rema. Obviously to make up gap every other slot and pt coordination will have even higher requirement than a pt with Rema.
It's going to be very hard but I wouldn't say it's absolutely impossible.
Asura.Shiraj said: »
A RDM will never be able to main heal Iroha.
As a rdm who enjoys the role of main healer the most, I don't believe it :p
I guess I'll have to make "main heal iroha on rdm and win" as my next in game project. ;)
All FFXI content and images © 2002-2024 SQUARE ENIX CO., LTD. FINAL
FANTASY is a registered trademark of Square Enix Co., Ltd.