Dev Tracker - Discussion

I never had any issues with it. Anyone even remotely familiar with japense culture would have realized it wasn't intended to be sexual. She was just meaning that we're a more familiar version of 'teacher', but no word exists in English (I don't think). So master was fine.

That...might actually not be a bad thing actually.

I don't think people were thinking about it as a sexual theme, more like a subservient theme.

They could have just left in the "Sensei" part, romanized it, and people would have understand it better.

People playing FFXI right after daily session with pornhub, so no wonder they think about it in sexual way :P

I never thought of it in a sexual way and I still I wish they just used sensei lol. I never liked being called master in games, it makes it sound like I'm a slave owner even if I know it isn't intended that way.

Sensei is not an English word, and as such, should always be translated in a localization unless there's a very strong reason not to (such as it being in an actual Japanese context that uses the word as an official title within an organization, or is used by a character who is an in-universe Japanese culture lover, or something of the like).

Master and sensei have nearly the same connotations when used in a teacher <> student relationship; the Japanese are just more used to having subservience embedded in their naming systems and have no problems with it.

Iroha should refer to the player as Daddy.

Female PC will also be referred to as Daddy by Iroha.

Yes, if you go by the historical context of the word, but most players do not know the full context of it. And a good portion do not know the context of "master" in Japanese culture.

Add that plus Western civilization's historical context of what a "master" is, and you will get a lot of confusion and/or anger towards the word, even though the meaning is different.

To be honest, SE shoulda just left it Sensei for the english version. The word is completely acceptable in the English language, and certainly has more notions of respect vs subservience than the word Master.

But no, it was more than that for me. I just found her hollow and boring. (Iroha) And I'm sick of her. There's no depth to her character, its just the simplistic singular focus that comes off as foolish and blind.

Master is also used in western contexts in exactly the same way as in Japanese contexts; just because the word has another use does not mean it's no longer valid to use it in its other context.

Western culture has had master/apprentice chains just as much as in Japan, and I can guarantee you that there's no true confusion on this point, as context makes it immediately clear that she is not calling herself your slave or anything of the sort.

Just slapping in the word sensei in there is likely going to confuse more people, as while the word is fairly spread among the west, it's still not mainstream.

really think its not mainstream(the word "Sensei")? I mean we're all to some extent victim of confirmation bias and often surround ourselves with people similar to ourselves, so its quite possible that surrounding myself with gamers (who I've always found are more familiar with Eastern Cultures than non-gamers in the US) and musicians (who often embrace foreign cultures more in search for new sounds) I just think its more mainstream than it is.

Maybe they will fix that in the upcoming storyline?

I didn't say it wasn't valid. But more people associate the word "master" towards subservience than they do with "leader/teacher" in Western Civilization. This is especially true with SJW riots happening right now.

I don't think may people will confuse the two. Just those with a chip on their shoulders and a lack of understanding of Japanese culture. Which, frankly, is a small portion of the FFXI community imo.

Lmao.

personally, I worked in a field where the terms Master/Apprentice is commonly used, but to use the term "Master" outside of a DIRECT reference to the job itself is considered a major no-no. And sadly, my field is way off national numbers in terms of being dominated by Caucasians- its just not an acceptable thing to randomly call someone Master...what is usually done is turning the phrase to "Master of ---" to directly imply that they are a Master of a craft, not a human being.

I understand better than most that Master is a term of respect given to someone who has spent a lifetime perfecting their talents in a specific discipline. But if we are to truly look at SE's use of it with Iroha objectively- what justification does she have to call US "Master"? I mean, she literally does it from moment one with no reason to. To me, that implied from the beginning a sense of subservience, not respect.

More like USA only imo.

Also not sure how Master translates to other European countries, but in Poland it would me translated to "Mistrz" rather than to "Pan". "Pan" is also translation to simple Mr in a sense of Mr Kingnobody, but in a sentence "On jest twoim panem" it would have a slavery meaning and would translate to "he is your owner/ruler". Now sentence "on jest twoim mistrzem" would rather mean that someone is your teacher and he is very skilled to be called "mistrz". So I wonder how it is in other part of Europe and in Asia, or even South America.

She's literally your years-long apprentice in combat and life in her future.

When she does it upon seemingly first meeting you, it's supposed to make you think, "huh, she's speaking very familiarly with me. I wonder what's her deal?" Then, when you find out she's a time traveler from the future where she knows you very well, it's supposed to suddenly click.

It's supposed to imply both subservience and respect. She's subservient not because she considers herself lesser than you as a person, but because she respects your opinions and thoughts due to your experience as her teacher and elder so much that she values your opinions and decisions extremely highly.

Even though the storyline shows that she is our apparent disciple in the future, we haven't gotten to that point in time yet.

Therein lies the disconnect.

Which, in Japanese storytelling (I have seen a lot of stories like this in manga, anime, and movies) this is a common occurrence. Almost Disney-like, actually. So they don't see the disconnect there.

I blame Back to the Future for all that.

You was clicking Enter too fast or what? XD

Player's char has trained Iroha in the future, so he is her Master (teacher of Martial Art).

Yeah, there is the time-travel aspect of her that may give an out to my complaint on this specific issue. (I'll also remind all that my primary complaint about Iroha isn't this issue, its how boring she is) I just was never comfortable with it while playing that part(s) of the game.

One thing I hadn't considered- could SE one day extend her story to make her a stronger, independent Woman, not someone constantly seeking a Master? Would fit with the current direction all entertainment is going these days.

edit: @SimonSes to not double post I'll respond. Nah I didn't click Enter too fast, I do remember her time travel- as Kingnobody points out there's a disconnect there, and just the term itself made me uncomfortable with the relationship in game.

I won't ignore a possible cultural disconnect where this isn't weird for those writing the story and their main audience- in fact I even cited "do JP players just like her more"- that's probably the most likely source of my frustration.

There was a lot of slavery in European history too. Plus the subservience aspect of British royalty/duchy. Where the servants call their employers "masters" even to this day. It's not a USA only trait, we just "borrowed" it from our neighbors across the Atlantic.

Wouldn't even be contextually strange as she's from Japana'diel and would identify with concepts that might not translate into Middle Kingdom language.

Not that this game really gives much thought to linguistics.

Seriously lol'd from that.

That's because their employers are referred to as masters of the house, not because they're the masters of the employees. Servants do not refer to other people that order them around as master unless they're also master of the house (which is traditionally only the head of household and their eldest son). Even if there are no servants or something, named gentry of that type of landowning system are still considered masters.

Its not about slavery being a thing or not. Its about how word "master" translates to your language. For Poland it's "mistrz" and it has no slavery mining at all (unless maybe in the meaning that if you are total noob and someone is your master you are willingly accept the fact that he can commands you whatever he want and you accept to do it to learn. Kinda like Shaolin monks would accept starving, being beaten etc. in order to improve their skills)

If he would call you "Owner", then that would translate to something that has connection to slavery in Polish langue.

It's not supposed to be fully comfortable; it's supposed to generate an awkward feeling of "I haven't made this bond with this character yet even though she knows me so well", which is a natural feeling for humans.

It's like in time-travel stories where someone's child comes from the future to their younger parents and refers to them as mom or dad even though said parent hasn't begun romancing (or sometimes even met) their significant other. Or, more down to earth, if you suddenly woke up in a hospital and told you have amnesia for the last 10 years of your life, and you have a spouse that is extremely close to you whom you don't really know at all.

I dont. I started typing way before they posted.

I think we're arguing the semantics of this from two different points. Many seem to not have a problem with it and fall back on the "logic of the storyline" to justify its use. And many who seem to have issues with it- the storyline doesn't matter a damn, its just the use of the term that's bothersome. As such, we're always gonna butt heads and get nowhere.

Then again, it is ffxiah....isn't that why we're here? ;)

lol I just meant so I don't double post, but oh well!

Got to triple post to be with the cool kids.