WoC is another good example. Pretty confident there's some convoluted way to get at least a small degree of control over the fight.
We just don't know this and many other things for the reason I listed before.
Player base has shrunk, people don't wanna test things anymore, once a reliable method is found people just stick to that instead of trying to spend nights and nights and weeks testing different approaches.
I can honestly totally underestand that and I'm confident we all can.
At the same time though that's probably the reason why we aren't finding the "original" ways to defeat these NMs.
In the end though, why should we care? As long as we can defeat them one way or another, who cares how? And yeah, this is exactely why I said I'm not complaining.
I was just saying I doubt it's the way SE meant those NMs to be defeated, at least for many of them.
Reisenjima T4s
Reisenjima T4s
Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
theres alot we just simply don't know about these NMs. Look at WoC. Thats basically a blind zerg for some groups. But there clearly intended to be some kind of strategy to prevent the 1hours as so many people try to lock them.
Isn't the way already discovered? Nuking with the element of the current day (or was it the element strong to the current day?) for a chance to white proc it which locks the possible 1 hours. I think the problem is the chance is too low that it boils down to a blind MB zerg fight regardless.
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The other problem with doing that is if you lock the wrong one hours, then the undesirable one have more chance to happen, not less and since people proc it by spamming the element both before and after, you're actually more likely to make him do multiple of the 1 hours you don't want to see :/ lol
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Bahamut.Vinedrius said: »
Isn't the way already discovered? Nuking with the element of the current day (or was it the element strong to the current day?)
Your post represents perfectly the current situation.
We know it's "somehow" related to nuking of a specific element at the right times having a chance to "proc" WoC and inhibit his ability to use one or multiple SP abilities for a certain amount of time.
But the DETAILS of how that works are missing, and people have just been throwing pretty much random T1 nukes in the hope it works. Sometimes it does hey! Can't hurt to do it, after all some jobs stand there doing nothing.
But you're confirming exactely what I was trying to say (is it element of the day? is it element weak against the day? Strong? Is it element of a specific JA? Does it last all of the fight? Does it block a single SP? A group? All of them? etc etc, we know no details)
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I think the only NM that we currently kill the correct intended way is probably Kirin v2. Simply because theres 2 working strats for that fight. SMN style and BLM style.
But Other NMs we don;t know hyper details about include say Schah with the pawns. We know "Checkmate" exists, but the issue is consistence.
I've not heard of people trying Eryins other ways than the current way. Oh Wait I've seen the same strat but instead of THFs it's BSTs. (That does work i've seen it first hand).
The T3 Tree in Reisen there is a way to proc it. I have seen it multipul times being proced and the aura being removed But the specifics i do not know.
I heard and read things about procing Old Shuck, but i believe it's related to SAM if im not wrong? and WSing.
Further proving that so much stuff we lack details.
But Other NMs we don;t know hyper details about include say Schah with the pawns. We know "Checkmate" exists, but the issue is consistence.
I've not heard of people trying Eryins other ways than the current way. Oh Wait I've seen the same strat but instead of THFs it's BSTs. (That does work i've seen it first hand).
The T3 Tree in Reisen there is a way to proc it. I have seen it multipul times being proced and the aura being removed But the specifics i do not know.
I heard and read things about procing Old Shuck, but i believe it's related to SAM if im not wrong? and WSing.
Further proving that so much stuff we lack details.
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Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
I've not heard of people trying Eryins other ways than the current way. Oh Wait I've seen the same strat but instead of THFs it's BSTs. (That does work i've seen it first hand).
Eryins would be functionally impossibly any other way then how we do know due to it's knockback Aura.
Asura.Sechs said: »
I was just saying I doubt it's the way SE meant those NMs to be defeated, at least for many of them.
Honestly I don't think SE even has a "planned method" for how we're supposed to fight these. They just take a difficult NM family, give in obscene stats and then toss in some adds or other "gotcha" mechanic and call it a day. As players we are constantly looking for ways to circumvent those "gotcha" mechanics, sometimes there is a built in way to avoid it, most of the time we just ignore it entirely.
For the tree, elemental weapon skills remove the aura, but our findings are inconsistent. It might have something to do with the day, or element of the elemental WS, but it is definitely elemental WS. Some fights we can remove cordon of apathy several times as it puts it up. Others it simply stays up no matter how many WS we throw at it. Since it's pretty much always mostly mages, the WSs used are light or earth based.
Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
But Other NMs we don;t know hyper details about include say Schah with the pawns. We know "Checkmate" exists, but the issue is consistence.
We do know Schah though. There's no checkmate thing, he just has a number of each add that can spawn and can only have one of each mob up at a time.
Bhata: 7 total. First at 29:30, subsequent pops 0:48 after last death.
Ashva: 2 total. First at 29:00, second 0:48 after first death.
Gaja: 2 total. First at 28:30, second 1:18 after first death.
Ratha: 2 total. First at 28:00, second 1:18 after first death.
Mantri A: 1 total. Spawns at 27:00.
Mantri B: Probably capped at 7, spawns about 2:10-15 after a Bhata pop if said Bhata is left alive that long. A new Bhata will spawn around 40 seconds after this thing pops. I guess this is the only unknown 'cause no one is gonna deal with the mistake of having two Mantri up.
Don't think there's anything important unknown about Onchy/Vini/Albumen/Teles, unless people are desperate for a trick to stop adds from spawning on the first three.
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A group had a Schah fight where adds stopped popping significantly before they were exhausted, they called it a 'checkmate thing'. It could've been a bug, or it could be a mechanic we have yet to understand.
We've yet to replicate what we did. I'm more inclined to believe it was a bug at this point since literally no other group has reported the behavior. The only significant things I can think that we did were
1) Nuke the same day of the element
2) Kill them in the order they spawned
3) Kill them before the next add could spawn
We've done 1/2 multiple times after that, but I can't recalled if we've killed adds fast enough before the next one could spawn (except for the first Bhata). I want to say we have though since we bring 2 RUNs and a COR to reset them for like 12 total gambit+raykes
1) Nuke the same day of the element
2) Kill them in the order they spawned
3) Kill them before the next add could spawn
We've done 1/2 multiple times after that, but I can't recalled if we've killed adds fast enough before the next one could spawn (except for the first Bhata). I want to say we have though since we bring 2 RUNs and a COR to reset them for like 12 total gambit+raykes
Chalking it up to a bug is somewhat hasty. We went months without knowing how Golden Kist works because we didn't need to. You can say the same thing about Schah and nearly every other Helm NM. People do what they know works. There are mechanics that we don't understand and that we will possibly never understand because of this.
Asura.Saevel said: »
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Eryins would be functionally impossibly any other way then how we do know due to it's knockback Aura.
Eryins would be functionally impossibly any other way then how we do know due to it's knockback Aura.
There are actually a few ways to get around it. You can get inside of the NM and totally avoid it's aura, but it's a pain in the *** to get there.
The other method I suspect is how SE actually wants it killed. Just shoot it with Rangers. He does nothing dangerous at all, he is super easy to tank and heal, even with his aura up. You can floor plant bubbles behind him to drop enfeebles on him, or just have the geos use indi debuffs and use geo spells for buffs.
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Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Just shoot it with Rangers
They'll never hit and when they do hit they won't do any damage.
I think you greatly underestimate how obscene the stats are on these NM's.
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Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Chalking it up to a bug is somewhat hasty. We went months without knowing how Golden Kist works because we didn't need to. You can say the same thing about Schah and nearly every other Helm NM. People do what they know works. There are mechanics that we don't understand and that we will possibly never understand because of this.
I'm not saying it is a bug, I just think that it's probably more likely than not. There's no reason to not try and replicate it anyway since it falls in line with the way we normally kill it
Asura.Saevel said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Just shoot it with Rangers
They'll never hit and when they do hit they won't do any damage.
I think you greatly underestimate how obscene the stats are on these NM's.
Considering we are one of the few LSes that actually uses jobs that have to have accuracy to actually hit, and the attack to do damage... I'd wager I have a better idea that just about anyone else.
With no dispels or any other *** to deal with, it's actually not that terrible for Rangers to be able to hit this NM. Do you still need a cadre of support? Sure, but it's perfectly doable.
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In regards to Erinys, the only attempt I remembering reading about said 1600+ accuracy yielded a 5% hit rate. That said, 1600 isn't even close to the max accuracy a RNG could obtain. I think we were able to cap attack with BoG frailty + attack roll but I can't be certain. It can use Calamitous Wind though so it's not a pushover in regards to damage done to you.
Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Considering we are one of the few LSes that actually uses jobs that have to have accuracy to actually hit, and the attack to do damage... I'd wager I have a better idea that just about anyone else.
You are saying that you use melees / rangers on Helm T4's? T3's I know can be done but T4's have several hundred more evasion then T3's, north of 2000 to go along with their obscene defense.
Asura.Saevel said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Considering we are one of the few LSes that actually uses jobs that have to have accuracy to actually hit, and the attack to do damage... I'd wager I have a better idea that just about anyone else.
You are saying that you use melees / rangers on Helm T4's? T3's I know can be done but T4's have several hundred more evasion then T3's, north of 2000 to go along with their obscene defense.
Yup, I briefly posted about it in this thread. Eryins has about the same evasion and DEF as Teles, so it's close to 1950. I posted closer numbers somewhere else, but it wasn't this thread. Falkirk made a handy dandy chart of accuracy requirements also, but I don't know where that is anymore either >.>
Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Considering we are one of the few LSes that actually uses jobs that have to have accuracy to actually hit, and the attack to do damage... I'd wager I have a better idea that just about anyone else.
You are saying that you use melees / rangers on Helm T4's? T3's I know can be done but T4's have several hundred more evasion then T3's, north of 2000 to go along with their obscene defense.
Yup, I briefly posted about it in this thread. Eryins has about the same evasion and DEF as Teles, so it's close to 1950. I posted closer numbers somewhere else, but it wasn't this thread. Falkirk made a handy dandy chart of accuracy requirements also, but I don't know where that is anymore either >.>
Quoting the LS lead POIDH, or in your case video.
Asura.Saevel said: »
Quoting the LS lead POIDH, or in your case video.
K.
YouTube Video Placeholder
YouTube Video Placeholder
YouTube Video Placeholder
Those are all fights where we have to calculate evasion and figure out the accuracy requirements for a capped hit rate, so we are well aware of what is needed. Rangers can actually get a good deal more native accuracy than Familiars, and can also actually be buffed. Eryins is the only one worth doing it on though.
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Umm no you can't. ~1600 is possible with all the acc buffs in the game, that's exactly how people melee the T3's. BST's have access to a percentage accuracy boost, percentage being the critical part. They can raise their pets accuracy by 300~400, something nobody else can do, which when paired with Torpor and Distract III enables them to hit the 2000 evasion NMs. Your thief, with all that done, would still be 200~300 accuracy shy, a RNG would be 100~200 shy.
I've looked long and hard at possibly meleeing the T4's with BLU's and I always come up short in the accuracy department. 1700~1800 is about the highest that can be reliably hit and that's with HQ abjurations, Hunters, Honor March + Madrigals, Precision and lots of Vorseals with Blessing of Fortitude and Sushi. It still falls short of what's needed for T4's.
What Trulusia is deliberately leaving out is that Run Wild's accuracy boost applies to Vorseals, Food, Drachen's and every form of +accuracy they use. The Evasion down is standard Idris Torpor and Distract III. RW spam is what enables BST's to do all that crazy stuff not Familiar spam and Super Revit's still reset RW's timer.
I've looked long and hard at possibly meleeing the T4's with BLU's and I always come up short in the accuracy department. 1700~1800 is about the highest that can be reliably hit and that's with HQ abjurations, Hunters, Honor March + Madrigals, Precision and lots of Vorseals with Blessing of Fortitude and Sushi. It still falls short of what's needed for T4's.
What Trulusia is deliberately leaving out is that Run Wild's accuracy boost applies to Vorseals, Food, Drachen's and every form of +accuracy they use. The Evasion down is standard Idris Torpor and Distract III. RW spam is what enables BST's to do all that crazy stuff not Familiar spam and Super Revit's still reset RW's timer.
Asura.Saevel said: »
Umm no you can't. ~1600 is possible with all the acc buffs in the game, that's exactly how people melee the T3's. BST's have access to a percentage accuracy boost, percentage being the critical part. They can raise their pets accuracy by 300~400, something nobody else can do, which when paired with Torpor and Distract III enables them to hit the 2000 evasion NMs. Your thief, with all that done, would still be 200~300 accuracy shy, a RNG would be 100~200 shy.
I've looked long and hard at possibly meleeing the T4's with BLU's and I always come up short in the accuracy department. 1700~1800 is about the highest that can be reliably hit and that's with HQ abjurations, Hunters, Honor March + Madrigals, Precision and lots of Vorseals with Blessing of Fortitude and Sushi. It still falls short of what's needed for T4's.
What Trulusia is deliberately leaving out is that Run Wild's accuracy boost applies to Vorseals, Food, Drachen's and every form of +accuracy they use. The Evasion down is standard Idris Torpor and Distract III. RW spam is what enables BST's to do all that crazy stuff not Familiar spam and Super Revit's still reset RW's timer.
I've looked long and hard at possibly meleeing the T4's with BLU's and I always come up short in the accuracy department. 1700~1800 is about the highest that can be reliably hit and that's with HQ abjurations, Hunters, Honor March + Madrigals, Precision and lots of Vorseals with Blessing of Fortitude and Sushi. It still falls short of what's needed for T4's.
What Trulusia is deliberately leaving out is that Run Wild's accuracy boost applies to Vorseals, Food, Drachen's and every form of +accuracy they use. The Evasion down is standard Idris Torpor and Distract III. RW spam is what enables BST's to do all that crazy stuff not Familiar spam and Super Revit's still reset RW's timer.
I think you should recheck your math, then.
My THF currently can get 1289 mainhand acc not in escha. And I'm pretty sure your BLU can break 1400. But lets go with my 1300.
Food~ 100
Vorseals with blessing (can be higher, this is my value)~ 160
Torpor/Precision~ 200
Distract 3~ 100
That's 1860. There are no bards or corsairs in play here, and I'm on a THF. Also not counting boost dex or indi-dex, or ambush, conspirator, swordplay, aggressor, etc.
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Keep it civil or I'm going to start throwing people out of here.
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Thanks Kojo. （＞’－’＜）
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Umm no you can't. ~1600 is possible with all the acc buffs in the game, that's exactly how people melee the T3's. BST's have access to a percentage accuracy boost, percentage being the critical part. They can raise their pets accuracy by 300~400, something nobody else can do, which when paired with Torpor and Distract III enables them to hit the 2000 evasion NMs. Your thief, with all that done, would still be 200~300 accuracy shy, a RNG would be 100~200 shy.
I've looked long and hard at possibly meleeing the T4's with BLU's and I always come up short in the accuracy department. 1700~1800 is about the highest that can be reliably hit and that's with HQ abjurations, Hunters, Honor March + Madrigals, Precision and lots of Vorseals with Blessing of Fortitude and Sushi. It still falls short of what's needed for T4's.
What Trulusia is deliberately leaving out is that Run Wild's accuracy boost applies to Vorseals, Food, Drachen's and every form of +accuracy they use. The Evasion down is standard Idris Torpor and Distract III. RW spam is what enables BST's to do all that crazy stuff not Familiar spam and Super Revit's still reset RW's timer.
I've looked long and hard at possibly meleeing the T4's with BLU's and I always come up short in the accuracy department. 1700~1800 is about the highest that can be reliably hit and that's with HQ abjurations, Hunters, Honor March + Madrigals, Precision and lots of Vorseals with Blessing of Fortitude and Sushi. It still falls short of what's needed for T4's.
What Trulusia is deliberately leaving out is that Run Wild's accuracy boost applies to Vorseals, Food, Drachen's and every form of +accuracy they use. The Evasion down is standard Idris Torpor and Distract III. RW spam is what enables BST's to do all that crazy stuff not Familiar spam and Super Revit's still reset RW's timer.
I think you should recheck your math, then.
My THF currently can get 1289 mainhand acc not in escha. And I'm pretty sure your BLU can break 1400. But lets go with my 1300.
Food~ 100
Vorseals with blessing (can be higher, this is my value)~ 160
Torpor/Precision~ 200
Distract 3~ 100
That's 1860. There are no bards or corsairs in play here, and I'm on a THF. Also not counting boost dex or indi-dex, or ambush, conspirator, swordplay, aggressor, etc.
Distract III caps at 90 although with Saboteur and Leth. Gantherots +1 you can push this up to 201. Regardless, Saevel's math is still way off.
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