For The Shinies! A Guide For Thief

Language: JP EN DE FR
2010-09-08
New Items
325 users online
Forum » FFXI » Jobs » Thief » For the Shinies! A Guide for Thief
For the Shinies! A Guide for Thief
First Page 2 3 ... 210 211 212 ... 213 214 215
 Fenrir.Melphina
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: melphina
Posts: 505
By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-11-14 12:32:44
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Quote:
Is Mandau a bad weapon as everyone says or can it be as good/better than Taruet? Was thinking of making one but unsure if its a waste of gil/time.

Yes, it's a waste of gil and time in its current state. Relics are all in a bad spot right now, and Mandau is no exception. Stick with Tauret or aim for one of the other REMA's. You'll thank yourself for it later. I've had I119 Mandau for years so I speak from experience. It's my offhand glamor nowadays (because shiny gold dagger). Before I finished Twashter I preferred to mainhand my perfect taming sari over the Mandau. Tauret crushes Ilvl 119 Mandau, and I very much doubt R15 would be enough to put Mandau ahead of Tauret. Tauret is just that good of a weapon.
[+]
 Ragnarok.Tdizzle
Offline
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Tdizzle
Posts: 95
By Ragnarok.Tdizzle 2019-11-16 22:26:43
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Anyone have updated gear sets? I’m thinking if dusting off my thf and am mostly using left over pieces from blu (hq adhemer/herc, etc.). Just wondering what bis sets look like for ws, tp, and such.
Offline
Posts: 152
By Unzero 2019-11-17 00:32:08
Link | Quote | Reply
 
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Community_Thief_Guide#TP_Sets
 Fenrir.Melphina
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: melphina
Posts: 505
By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-11-17 09:00:06
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Throw in this one for an updated -DT hybrid as well. Yes I know getting the malignance can be a pain, but trust me; it's worth the effort. I love using this particular set against harder things. Great investment of time there.

ItemSet 369740

The cape is -10% PDT so all you have to do to swap it to a full -dt set is add either a defending ring in place of Hetaroi, or a pair of moonlight rings. But unless you're expecting to really need that extra -PDT this set is better.

On a side note, I've also been trying out /drg sub and liking it quite a bit. I think it's a perfectly viable sub for things. /dnc, /nin, /war, and /drg all have their uses. I like /drg better than /war nowadays because of the lack of a defense penalty from berserk, and honestly with proper party buffs I think /drg works just fine as an offensive sub.
[+]
 Asura.Sechs
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Akumasama
Posts: 6334
By Asura.Sechs 2019-11-28 01:52:13
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Got a few questions about Job Specific Equipment:

When do, if ever, AF hands become better than Meghanada+2 for 1hit WS like Rudra's and Mandalic?
My guess for SA is: never.
My guess for TA is: uhm... maybe the +3 version, but I'm not sure.

How do AF+3 body vs Relic+3 body compare against themselves and against Meghanada+2? For 1hit WSs.
For SA: AF+3 should win, Megha's slightly higher mods and Att won't compensate for the TA+7% I'm afraid.
For TA: AF+3 wins again? Would Relic+3's higher attack, mods and TA+10 compensate for TA+7% and Cdmg+1% on AF+3?
I'm of course not factoring the TA+5% from 5/5 Ambush.
Relic Body should be BiS for Evisceration though?

Similar question for legs: I guess Relic+3's additional att and 1% more WSD (and slightly higher mods) make it better for unstacked 1h WS, but when SA/TA are up AF+3 could pull slightly ahead? I can see both piece being very close to each other.


Any other JSE worth mentioning?
 Fenrir.Melphina
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: melphina
Posts: 505
By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-11-28 09:03:59
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Artifact hands never overtake meghanada gloves +2 for 1 hit weaponskills under any circumstances. Meg +2 is just better period.

And 7% triple attack doesn't do as much as you think for rudra's storm. Most of the damage comes from the first hit because the fTP mod doesn't transfer. Whenever you're using sneak or trick attack + rudra's storm meg cuirie +2 and Plundrer's vest +3 are about the same, and both are better than artifact. Yes, the higher stat mods and attack on the relic vest is worth more than 7% triple attack rate. A LOT more actually. Look at it this way

The first hit has a 5.0 TP mod at 1K TP, and 10.0 TP mod at 2K. That means the first hit all by itself is worth 5 times as much as any triple attack swings, and at 2k TP the first hit is worth ten extra hits. When you stack sneak or trick attack that first hit critical does literally 15-30 times more damage than any extra swings. At 3000 tp stacked with SA or TA it's closer to 40 times more, and that's not even an exxageration.

ONLY the first hit gets fTP mod bonuses
ONLY the first hit gets weaponskill damage mods from gear
ONLY the first hit gets critical attack bonus mods when you stack sneak or trick attack

That's why the extra stat mods on meg cuirie +2 or relic vest +3 always win.
[+]
 Asura.Sechs
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Akumasama
Posts: 6334
By Asura.Sechs 2019-11-28 09:19:52
Link | Quote | Reply
 
You wrote "ambush" but you meant "Assassin's Charge?"
Plunderer's Vest augment Ambush, which is a trait that gives you some bonuses when you stay behind the enemy.
Plunderer's vest add 5% TA to those bonuses (at 5/5).

Assassin's Charge is a JA that gives you TA with a certain chance of QA.
And yeah, noticed it's not really that worth it anymore, especially with the awful 5 mins cooldown.
But then again Ambush is meh with its positional requirement and Aura Steal doesn't look particularly attractive :x


Thanks for the rest of the clarifications. Think I'll save some gil and keep using Meghanada+2 lol.
Any other JSE piece worth mentioning, that I haven't already mentioned?
 Fenrir.Melphina
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: melphina
Posts: 505
By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-11-28 09:26:02
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Yeah, its still morning. I haven't had a chance to wake up fiully yet. got stuff mixed up. I edited the post for readability and cut that snippet out. Ignore the ambush comments. Everything else stands though. Artifact vest +3 never beats meg +2 or relic +2 in rudras. The first hit is where so much of the weaponskills power comes from that the extra stat mods are always worth gearing for. Everything goes into that firt hit, especially when it's the critical hit. Yes artifact vest +3 does have 6% crit damage, but 65 attack on the relic vest +3 and extra stat mods are worth more.
[+]
 Asura.Sechs
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Akumasama
Posts: 6334
By Asura.Sechs 2019-11-28 09:35:24
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I guess Artifact could be a decent alternative to Adhemar+1 though? Or what else would a THF use to TP in the body slot? Malignance is cool but it's more for Hybrid builds.

...please let's not mention Herc body with crazy DM augs xD



Also what do you say on AF+3 vs Relic+3 legs?

Slightly better base stats on Relic, way less acc, more att, no TA but WSD+6% (which is gonna work even outside of SA/TA).
I think they're close to each other but Relic+3 should win for WS.
AF+3 is probably a decent option for TPing though?

If you were to pick only one which would you pick? I guess AF since you can use it for both TP and WS, even if it's slightly worse than relic for the latter.
 Fenrir.Melphina
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: melphina
Posts: 505
By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-11-28 09:38:18
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Quote:
Any other JSE piece worth mentioning, that I haven't already mentioned?


Here's a list of JSE pieces and their utility in no particular order.

Artifact hat +3 -- BiS rudra's storm piece
Artifact legs +3 -- BiS TP piece
Artifact Body +3 - BiS TP piece with a dual wield + 12 setup. Ideally achieved with 500 job point bonus and Reiki Yotai.

Artifact hands and feet are fringe use. The hands have broader application, but both are skippable. I don't have either fully upgraded. You can save your money.


Relic Vest +3 -- BiS evisceration piece. BiS Trick attack + Rudra's piece. Equal in damage to Meg +2 for SA + rudras, but has 30 enmity. Use Meg +2 to avoid tanking.
Relic Legs +3 -- BiS Rudra's storm piece
Relic Feet +3 -- BiS TP piece
Relic Hat +3 -- Extremely versatile TP piece. Huge pile of stats. Adhemar +1 has a higher white damage potential (crit damage is better than higher attack, but attack affects all hits so it's not a terribly big difference). Never bad to TP in.
Relic Hands +3 -- Paired with perfect taming sari it caps treasure hunter with very little DpS loss. Its your best option for anytime you want to maintain TH + 8 fulltime. If you never want to fulltime TH +8, it can be skipped.

Obviously malignance has utility as bis TP gear for harder content. But the standard glass cannon build favores relic feet and artifact body.
[+]
 Asura.Sechs
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Akumasama
Posts: 6334
By Asura.Sechs 2019-11-28 09:42:17
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Alllll right. Guess I'm gonna try to strive for some compromise here and there, at least at start, but I got my ideas clearer now.

Are any of the Empy+1 worth getting for JA swaps? Collaborator/Accomplice, Conspirator att boost etc.


Question about the Despoil enhancing pieces (Barathrum, Empy legs, Dmpy feet) do they do anything at all with the TP-steal aspect that you add to Despoil through Job Points?
Or does the amount of TP stolen remain the same regardless of Despoil-enhancing gear being or not being equipped?
 Fenrir.Melphina
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: melphina
Posts: 505
By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-11-28 09:51:41
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Quote:
Are any of the Empy+1 worth getting for JA swaps? Collaborator/Accomplice, Conspirator att boost etc.

Just the hat for accomplice. I'd only bother if you find yourself using it often though, and I doubt you'll feel it's important enough to persue. Our enmity control role isn't a big part of gameplay. Tanks can cap hate pretty well alone, and trick attack does a better job than anything. The rest are meh.

Don't bother with the vest for conspirator. It has to be full timed to get the bonus. And it actually has some very detrimental effects.

See Aereandir's commentary here

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/36654/for-the-shinies-a-guide-for-thief/200
Quote:
TLDR -- The "Augments Conspirator" enhancement on Skulker's Vest appears to be overwriting any amount of Store TP you have on your gear. This might actually be the final nail in the coffin for it as even a macro piece...

Apparently it may actually lower TP gain in the current meta of high sTP pieces. It was designed around abbysea era gear so I suppose getting + 20 sTP on a single piece would be considered broken back then. Today though... yuck.

Its stats are garbage though. Just the fact that it only affects conspirator when equipped full time is reason enough to not use it. You'd never full time it in its current state anyway.
 Asura.Sechs
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Akumasama
Posts: 6334
By Asura.Sechs 2019-11-28 10:08:30
Link | Quote | Reply
 
EEEEEEW on the vest thing.
Glad I asked!
Offline
Posts: 667
By Nyarlko 2019-11-28 16:52:28
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Melphina: Have you thought of the possibility that each tier of TH has a specific preset proc rate, which is most likely declining as tiers increase?

We have zero official info on the proc rate itself, much less confirmation that the rate is uniform across all tiers of TH, so I am very interested in whether or not your dataset will be able to support this possibility or rule it out.

In my experience, it always seems to be very easy to proc up thru TH10 with equal/greater total TH, but higher takes a while whether I've got TH+10 in gear, or in my ridiculous max TH set. (TH+18 in gear I think it is. I know that the max set is a sugar pill. lol) Highter TH tiers having a lower base proc rate would explain this better than any other explanation I can come up with.
 Fenrir.Melphina
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: melphina
Posts: 505
By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-11-28 17:45:37
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I really do need to finish that data collection don't I. I've been busy with several projects and got side tracked. To answer your question, yes I believe that's how it works. It's almost a certainty that higher tiers have lower proc chances. Getting to Th 9 or 10 and even 11 is pretty easy. 12, not so much, anything beyond is a nightmare. If there was a uniform chance across all tiers then my "max TH" set should be hitting Th 13 or 14 regularly, but that's not the case. There's a significant dropoff of procs no matter what after you hit Th 10 and 11, which should be proof enough that they're harder to proc.
Offline
Posts: 667
By Nyarlko 2019-11-28 18:19:55
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Fenrir.Melphina said: »
I really do need to finish that data collection don't I. I've been busy with several projects and got side tracked. To answer your question, yes I believe that's how it works. It's almost a certainty that higher tiers have lower proc chances. Getting to Th 9 or 10 and even 11 is pretty easy. 12, not so much, anything beyond is a nightmare. If there was a uniform chance across all tiers then my "max TH" set should be hitting Th 13 or 14 regularly, but that's not the case. There's a significant dropoff of procs no matter what after you hit Th 10 and 11, which should be proof enough that they're harder to proc.

I just thought of something else.. Since TH13/14 are from Job Point Gifts... what if the devs simply implemented them wrong, so it's unintentional that the proc rates are far more abysmal than they intended? I've long had a strong suspicion that whatever testing methods they use for examining the game simply don't match the actual live servers, or else we wouldn't have had the Great GEO Bug (which most would probably prefer to call a nerf instead,) which was overlooked for literal years because they thought it was Working As Intended the whole time?

TBH, it's ideas like that that make me really wish they would cough up the actual math and functioning of things like TH. Then we could test it and tell them that they are wrong at least. XD
 Phoenix.Capuchin
Offline
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
user: Anza
Posts: 2388
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-11-28 19:23:07
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Fenrir.Melphina said: »
Relic Hat +3 -- Extremely versatile TP piece. Huge pile of stats. Adhemar +1 has a higher white damage potential (crit damage is better than higher attack, but attack affects all hits so it's not a terribly big difference). Never bad to TP in.

Also relevant that, compared to Adhemar +1, Plunderer's Bonnet +3 has an array of moderately better defensive stats across the board: DEF+20, HP+15, VIT+16, AGI+16(B path)/AGI+4 (A path), Eva+15, Meva+14, MDB+1 (and one negative, Subtle Blow -8). It's not Malignance-level defense, but given the otherwise similar offensive performance, the modest defensive advantages might be worth going with relic.

OTOH, if you're using Adhe+1 body or hands, set bonus extra crit rate 2% per piece is a minor perk.
 Asura.Sechs
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Akumasama
Posts: 6334
By Asura.Sechs 2019-12-01 23:35:16
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Which strat do you guys use to efficiently solo Lilith E? I've done it countless times but I feel like I'm not efficient enough and often fall back to VE because of how faster it is and 100% win rate too of course.

I've found my main issue with E is trusts not dispelling drain spikes fast enough.
In addition to that dropping my health too fast because of unlucky multi attack procs, the real problem is that it makes me waste a lot of time, and with trusts the more the fight drags on the more they struggle with mp and the more likely you're gonna die.

I've used Amchuchu, Joachim, Apururu, Ygnas, Koru-Moru.
 Bismarck.Indigla
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Indigla
Posts: 187
By Bismarck.Indigla 2019-12-02 02:00:08
Link | Quote | Reply
 
What I did was THF/WAR in this TP set:
ItemSet 369918
Probably far from an ideal set, since Shell5 should give you -30% MDT? Just paranoid of her stealing shell at a bad moment. Can use other -DT/meva pieces in place of Malig until you get them.

Yoran, Ygnas, King, Arciela1, Ajido (probably fastest for dispel).
Would go to past to get Sigil Regen/Refresh/Food Duration before a run.

Would run in, tag her, voke, run to a side and work her along the edge of the inside of the arena's gyve circle. Evisceration in response to each TP move that isn't Fatal Allure.

Ajido will dispel spikes quickly 90% of the time, but if he doesn't you might get in a low HP loop from spike damage where he'll just keep curing you so can turn. King will very rarely use TP on a Fusion TP move so can watch out for that too.

Basically just Evis after her TP moves til she dies, pull back on gyve pops (3 max) otherwise keep close to her (would just toggle walk after 3 gyves), but unlocked camera after reposition (she still knocks you back a little). Turn on Fatal Allures. Sometimes you might not have TP to Evis after Subjugation Slash hate reset so you can just voke instead.
[+]
 Asura.Sechs
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Akumasama
Posts: 6334
By Asura.Sechs 2019-12-02 02:13:21
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Why the WS after TP moves?
And with that setup you're not haste capped but I guess you found out that didn't matter for you.

Tbf I rarely am in a position where I lack TP, so I guess dropping Joachim is something to try.

Why no Tank btw? I found out having a tank made it much safe for me to avoid Fatal Allure, plus it allowed me to TA singlehit WS for nice damage.


I've always fought Lilith inside the Gyve circle. What happens if you fight her outside, does she gain access to some stats, reduced damage or what else?
 Bismarck.Indigla
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Indigla
Posts: 187
By Bismarck.Indigla 2019-12-02 02:19:55
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Just so I don't get caught by allure and don't want to turn every time I WS. Tanks can WS and cause a heal from skillchain which I want to avoid. Fighting in the gyve causes you to have perma evasion down aura on you which wastes healer time with erasing when you might need a heal or might need another debuff taken off.
 Asura.Sechs
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Akumasama
Posts: 6334
By Asura.Sechs 2019-12-02 02:34:36
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bismarck.Indigla said: »
Just so I don't get caught by allure and don't want to turn every time I WS.
Ooooh for that, ok makes sense. Thought there was some special trick or something.


Quote:
Tanks can WS and cause a heal from skillchain which I want to avoid.
Absolutely, even though only dark-alligned SC heal her.
I've been doing 2 and 3 step Light/Radiance (when I don't get caught by Amnesia :-P) and despite Lilith's reduced damage from Light, those SC deal nice damage.

No-SC-with-tank is the reason why I picked Amchuchu btw, which is a tank that rarely WSs if at all.
I've considered Mnejing as well as a tank (can dispel Dread Spikes with Disruptor, once every XX seconds) but I've never tried it.
 Bismarck.Indigla
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Indigla
Posts: 187
By Bismarck.Indigla 2019-12-02 02:40:29
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Another reason I don't want to use a tank is just for positioning so I can keep her faced away from trusts so a bunch don't get hit with Sub Slash and end up curing each other instead of me and wasting a bunch of MP. Also using a tank means repositioning out of gyves is a pain. Doing it how I described clear times were about 4 mins and change, not sure how much time savings you'd get over that with a tank, but if you find it works for you all the better.
 Asura.Sechs
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Akumasama
Posts: 6334
By Asura.Sechs 2019-12-02 02:49:34
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Positioning with trust tank can be annoying for the reasons you said, and also it means you have to "move" the tank at least 3 times (for the 3 gyves Lilith pops).
To do that you need to disengage, move to a different position then re-engage.

It normally works perfectly fine, but sometimes it can be annoying if the tank got hit by Bind :x

I dunno, guess I'll give it a try without tank, I've been a scaredycat about getting hit by Fatal Allure so far



How long do your runs take? My VE runs take, I dunno, less than 2 minutes, let's say 2 mins.
My E runs take uhm, 5+ mins. I think it's closer to ~8 mins probably?
Higher than that and it usually means I wipe because of trusts going out of mp.
It could be much faster but Amnesia and undispelled Dread Spikes really kill my speed.
For the latter I think I'm gonna try Ajido-Marujido just like you suggested, looks like he's gonna prioritize Dispel over anything else, should do wonders to counterbalance Dread Spikes.
 Bismarck.Indigla
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Indigla
Posts: 187
By Bismarck.Indigla 2019-12-02 02:57:41
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Little over 4 mins if I recall, been a while. Probably faster/slower depending on amnesias. You resist a lot of them once you get any Malig piece really.
Offline
Posts: 2143
By SimonSes 2019-12-02 06:18:15
Link | Quote | Reply
 
The easiest strategy for E is to stay on top of summoned Gyve and switch target to it. Then you melee on Gyve and WS Lilith. You can push this even further and go /drk and absorb-TP her. She shouldnt be able to TP move again.
 Asura.Sechs
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Akumasama
Posts: 6334
By Asura.Sechs 2019-12-02 06:34:43
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Oooooh that's quite neat! I would need custom macros but that's easily solved.

Do all summoned gyves give the same auras? I never bothered to check what they do but I assumed each gyve gave different auras, at random?

Which trusts would you use Simon? Regardless your idea is incredibly neat and stimulating, I would've never thought of something like that on my own.
 Valefor.Yandaime
Offline
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: Yandaime
Posts: 428
By Valefor.Yandaime 2019-12-02 06:49:47
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Sechs said: »
Oooooh that's quite neat! I would need custom macros but that's easily solved.

Do all summoned gyves give the same auras? I never bothered to check what they do but I assumed each gyve gave different auras, at random?

Which trusts would you use Simon? Regardless your idea is incredibly neat and stimulating, I would've never thought of something like that on my own.


Yeah, same Auras. On E it’s only a MEVA Down Aura. I don’t think it’s cumulative? But it’s not like she has any world-ending moves at E so doesn’t really matter. On N+ The Gyves give Doom and then Dia on Goddess form.

You were asking Simon specifically about the trust selection but I would say the trusts given in prior posts are pretty spot on. Healers and Dispellers.
Offline
Posts: 2143
By SimonSes 2019-12-02 07:00:26
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Valefor.Yandaime said: »
Healers and Dispellers.

Ajido, Yoran, Joachim, Koru, Qultada. I would probably send away Qultada after he gives you rolls, because he will be a mp sponge otherwise.
 Asura.Sechs
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Akumasama
Posts: 6334
By Asura.Sechs 2019-12-02 07:35:05
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Of course TP in dt/meva gear after having touched lilith with th8, I assume.
First Page 2 3 ... 210 211 212 ... 213 214 215
Log in to post.