For The Shinies! A Guide For Thief

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For the Shinies! A Guide for Thief
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By Otomis 2013-03-11 00:21:12
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Enuyasha said: »
General derp question i've been wondering forever:

Do you have to keep the SA/TA sets on when you hit, or does it apply the bonus when you use it and then you can take them off after?

Other stuff:

-You can SA/TA pets but they have to specifically be your pet.Same with adventuring fellows.
-Hide works for sight mobs only.

Aye gear must remain on for the hit^^
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By Otomis 2013-03-11 00:22:49
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Besides damage my primary goal when stacking TA/SA is to build TH on most things lasting long enough to even use them more then once, so I commonly keep my TH gear stacked with my SA/TA abilities.
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By Enuyasha 2013-03-11 00:27:17
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Otomis said: »
Enuyasha said: »
General derp question i've been wondering forever:

Do you have to keep the SA/TA sets on when you hit, or does it apply the bonus when you use it and then you can take them off after?

Other stuff:

-You can SA/TA pets but they have to specifically be your pet.Same with adventuring fellows.
-Hide works for sight mobs only.

Aye gear must remain on for the hit^^
My life has been a lie ;A;

Im gunna have to rewrite my SA/TA rules now though so i dont switch back to base sets.

Quote:
Besides damage my primary goal when stacking TA/SA is to build TH on most things lasting long enough to even use them more then once, so I commonly keep my TH gear stacked with my SA/TA abilities.
I have my TH gear set to my RA set. Throw my boomerang, on the hate list, switch.
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By Otomis 2013-03-11 00:31:39
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"Im gunna have to rewrite my SA/TA rules now though so i dont switch back to base sets."

I am guessing a windower script comment? I am a nubby I still use 6 pages of old school macros for thf, lol. despite the inevitable carpal tunnel I am the fastest keyboard in the west.
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-03-11 00:42:30
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Enuyasha said: »
Hide works for sight mobs only.
Are you referring to using Hide preemptively as a means of stealth or are you referring to its use as a means to shed hate? The criteria for it to "work" are different for each case, with the OP being correct in the latter case but there is indeed no mention in the guide currently of using it in the former way.

Edit: Changed post entirely
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By Sylph.Malizia 2013-03-11 01:00:03
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Otomis said: »
You are a brave soul to make a dedicated Thf forum. Looks nice! let the math/spreadsheet user(who don't really get math)/elitist/nerd rage on the perfection of Thf begin.
Brave? Yes. Wise? No. But I have to say, I am learning a LOT about THF :)

More good criticism, I'll be making updates tonight, including daggers.
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By Enuyasha 2013-03-11 01:03:49
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Phoenix.Suji said: »
Enuyasha said: »
Hide works for sight mobs only.
Are you referring to using Hide preemptively as a means of stealth or are you referring to its use as a means to shed hate? The criteria for it to "work" are different for each case, with the OP being correct in the latter case but there is indeed no mention in the guide currently of using it in the former way.

Edit: Changed post entirely
The effect wears off immediately and the remove hate doesnt work at all if you use Hide against sound mobs. I just wanted to let the OP know about the other things it dosnt have an effect on :(
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By Sylph.Krsone 2013-03-11 01:11:31
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Thought it worked on sound but not scent aka works quadav/yagudo te links but never orc.
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By Enuyasha 2013-03-11 01:14:52
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Sylph.Krsone said: »
Thought it worked on sound but not scent aka works quadav/yagudo te links but never orc.
my entire life could be a lie now ;A;
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-03-11 01:18:30
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Enuyasha said: »
Phoenix.Suji said: »
Enuyasha said: »
Hide works for sight mobs only.
Are you referring to using Hide preemptively as a means of stealth or are you referring to its use as a means to shed hate? The criteria for it to "work" are different for each case, with the OP being correct in the latter case but there is indeed no mention in the guide currently of using it in the former way.

Edit: Changed post entirely
The effect wears off immediately and the remove hate doesnt work at all if you use Hide against sound mobs. I just wanted to let the OP know about the other things it dosnt have an effect on :(
Well, this is incorrect like I said earlier in the thread. Just go test it, there's plenty examples of mobs that aggro sound that Hide "works" on in the sense that it enables you to shed hate.

Sure, if you just stand right next to it for a while afterwards, it will re-aggro you, but you get the normal amount of time to move out of range before it aggros again.

Hide's easily THF's most misunderstood ability and I'm not even sure that the scent tracking rule covers all of the cases correctly, but its efficacy for removing aggro certainly has nothing to do with whether or not something aggros by sound or sight.
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By Enuyasha 2013-03-11 01:20:32
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[derp]

Enuyasha said: »
My life has been a lie ;A;


[/derp]

i guess this is why we have a guide thread * disappears into the bushes*
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By Sylph.Malizia 2013-03-11 01:34:31
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Quote:
Hide

I *just* tested it on a skeleton, after punching it in the clavicle. It deaggroed me just as Suji says.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-03-11 02:11:55
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It also works on Frogs, which are supposedly true hearing. An old strategy in Zhayolm Remnants used to be pulling all the frogs from the 4F Poroggo room away (towards the rampart, I think?) so you could get the Madame from the train, then using Hide to deagro them, killing the proper Rampart, and going up.

Here:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Hide
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By Sylph.Malizia 2013-03-11 03:09:33
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OK, more changes. I didn't get to Daggers as I said, but I blame Suji and the Hide testing for giving me other important things to work on.

* Added item tags.
* SA / TA mention exact changes from the glove augments, and differences when using it as /THF.
* Wrote more on Gilfinder and Evasion Bonus.
* Upgraded Hide to reflect its multiple uses. Kept the part about removing aggro from sound based monsters, because I saw it work with my own eyes.
* Explained delay cap for Dual Wield.
* Steal/Mug/Despoil/Bully all note their usage as a JA Dynamis proc.
* Added a Mug section. No one noticed it was missing! Clearly it must be useless.
* Nobody likes my opinions, so I removed them from the Feint section.

I'm going to keep working on this every day, so if you are upset Daggers & Equipment are not revamped yet, it will be soon, I promise.

I don't use Spellcast (I use Windower macros), so I do not feel comfortable writing any information on it. If you all feel that is a useful addition, I would be happy to quote any contributors *ahem Suji*.

I also plan on rewriting the THF Roles section into an Events-sorted layout, as Suji suggested, but again I have no Legion experience. Here's what I have cribbed from this thread, let me know what's missing:
* THF's primary focus is increasing TH here. Damage from THF is minimal.
* Monsters in this zone are often highly evasive, and an augmented Feint will be extremely beneficial.
* Acid bolts are cool, like bowties and taru football.
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By Ragnarok.Flippant 2013-03-11 21:01:26
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This is the section I wrote up for Legion:

It's a bit long as I tend to write too much >_>; Sorry.

I mentioned Nom Mittens because it's unfortunate that there is no note of them whatsoever when they are a pretty good piece. They aren't part of an ideal set, and yet they are better than the base set--but I agree they are a bit too expensive to be a "base" piece, so perhaps you could mention that they are a reasonable downgrade (as opposed to alternative) for Skadi's +1 in the ideal section (as well as Miodio Gloves).

Also, I said Exen is not an impressive WS because being our best non-stacked WS doesn't mean it's really good. The better our alternative weaponskills are, the more powerful a Vajra could be.
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By Sylph.Malizia 2013-03-12 00:19:59
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Thanks Flippant!

More updates today:
* Rewrote THF Roles section to be an Events section. And yes, the spoiler tag doesn't work for Voidwatch. I know, and seriously it's not my fault.
* Updated Daggers! It now has lots of extra notes, a blurb on Pugiunculus, links to data, and pretty much everything I could see mentioned in the comments so far.

Also, I have been stickied. While the internet fame is glorious, it really just means I need to work on the Equipment section.
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By Ragnarok.Flippant 2013-03-12 02:45:32
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I read the post you added to the Vajra section and decided to go back to look at Mandalic Stab in the excel some more (as I said before, the best I could get was 66% of the damage of my ideal Mercy). I realized that the relic bonus field on line 118 of the data tab was checking for Mandalic Stab in the wrong cell, so I fixed that (and also let Motenten know). Thanks for helping me find that field, Suji!

But I nevertheless have to question the results in that post. I simply cannot get anywhere near those numbers in excel. I figure that the numbers would be off a little as that post was made almost a year ago now, but I don't want to try to make sets that would have been ideal back then, so I stuck with "modern" sets.

Using as much information as he provided, no yellow curry bun, /WAR but no attack buffs, against each of these enemies:

a) level 110, 500 defense
b) level 100, 500 defense (he mentions two different levels, so I'm not sure which he actually used)
c) level 110, 750 defense (because Mandalic's attack was capped on the 500 defense)
a2-c2) I still couldn't get Mandalic to win, so I tried Mandalic at 300% and manually adding 40% DA and 20% TA to fake aftermath

100% TP SA Mercy Stroke (offhand Twash 99 and using Prosilio since attack isn't capped)

a: 3763
b: 3403
c: 1312

100%/300% SA Mandalic Stab (offhand Twash 99)

a: 3419
b: 2829
c: 1568
a2: 4213
b2: 4134
c2: 1802

So I couldn't get Mandalic Stab to beat Mercy Stroke in the description outlined from that post. I had to assume this was a 300% WS to get something that resembled their results, b2 being the closest with the same 21% lead that they found.

So yes, Mandalic Stab can beat Mercy in the right conditions (at 300%), and I was also entirely off on what I said earlier in that it can't even come close (at 100%). However, it's really very unrealistic be attacking such targets with no attack buffs at all, something that gives an edge towards Mercy Stroke.

a3-c3) Same as a2-c2, but I added Stalwart's and used RCB instead of yellow

Mercy Stroke:
a3) 4252
b3) 3535
c3) 1776

Mandalic Stab:
a3) 4246
b3) 3485
c3) 2355

So even at maximum capacity, the only realistic situation Mandalic Stab, even at 300% and including aftermath, will noticeably beat Mercy is when your dps is basically complete garbage (looking at the gear tab, the Mandau set on c3 with optimum build is 59 DPS total; I can't fairly calculate the Vajra's set dps without setting up both sides since there's only one field for min TP value).

Stacked Mandalics with Stalwarts at 100% fall even more behind of course, although if I assume AM3 is up:

Mandalic Stab at 100% with AM3 up
a4) 3903
b4) 3199
c4) 2142

Still falling behind in the first two situations, but not nearly as much as before. I'll probably look at little more into the entire DPS of a Vajra set later, because this has certainly piqued my interests.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-03-12 03:08:14
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Your mandalic stab numbers are way too high.
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By Ragnarok.Flippant 2013-03-12 03:23:49
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Then I have to wonder what I've done wrong in the excel to have boosted the results. I double checked the Mandalic fTP, 66% attack boost, and made sure I was getting the 30% SA boost and 30% WS boost. If the Mandau numbers look accurate, then I'm not sure where else to look for any problems. Again, I also manually added 40% DA 20% TA to replicate AM3, as it can proc on the WS that activates it, if I am not mistaken.

Unfortunately, I accidentally closed the excel without saving when I mistook it for another one -_- I'll try to recreate the results tomorrow.
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By Cerberus.Mindi 2013-03-12 03:44:14
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one note to Provenance Voidwatch: A MNK can hold one cat in the prefights np, but sure since the thf is already there he can take over that. But holding cats is not the reason why there is a thf, he is there for in the PW fight: since the drops also drop from the Watcher so TH should help.

one note to Dynamis:
not really related to THF; more in general and i think many people dont know or forget about it - you can get Reraise from the Fields of Valor-books and this reraise last 2 hours :) its a free almost-fulltime dynamis RR hehe

When you find your time to work on the equipment sets, you can also add full evasion-set and a hybrid-evasion set.

Also an idle setup is nice, which should atleast have movement-speed and regen (oh noes really ;)?) The most basic Regen pieces i find worth to carry is
ocelomeh headpiece +1 2tick (1 tick on NQ i think)
wiglen gorget 3 tick
paguroidea ring 2 tick
sheltered ring only 1 tick, but also enhances Protect/shell so its a nice idle piece.. mostly you get your buffs when you idle anyways.

also with regen, but a little.. more expensive ;) so i would not call it basic lol:
Khepri jacket 2 tick (1 tick on NQ.. )

another nice piece is scuta cape 2 tick, but it comes with decreased movement speed. So you might not allways want it in your idle set (like when you need to move around alot)

there is more gear withe regen, but it gets less and less reasonable to carry them around. i am normally on 70+items on my thf inventory already and there keep stuff in sack like gear for Aolean edge, RA or evasion depending what i do.

other pieces are:

snakeeye umm... (1 tick)
dusk jerkinummmm... (should be 1 tick)
muscle belt +1 2 tick, only active when below 50% HP (NQ is 1 tick)
lycopodium sash is 3 tick, but only on daytime.
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By Sylph.Malizia 2013-03-12 15:17:51
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Yup, regen, full evasion, and hybrid evasion sets are on my list. So is an Evisceration in Abyssea Goal set. I got a request for a max haste+march set but that sounds far too situational to be worthwhile to everyone.

I couldn't find any good information on TH against Provenance Watcher on the internet, so if you're saying PW's direct drops are affected by TH that is useful. I mentioned the THF holding the cats because my group does that, but if the THF is really there for the TH, I'll make a quick edit to reflect that.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-03-12 15:20:02
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Sylph.Malizia said: »
max haste+march set but that sounds far too situational to be worthwhile to everyone
This isn't true. Besides, situational or not a guide should cover everything.
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By Sylph.Malizia 2013-03-12 15:36:21
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Sylph.Malizia said: »
max haste+march set but that sounds far too situational to be worthwhile to everyone
This isn't true. Besides, situational or not a guide should cover everything.
If you can provide me an interesting example, I'd be happy to find a place to add it.

But the last point I totally don't agree with on multiple levels. First, covering everything is practically impossible: there are four races, each with different stats; there are three interesting subjobs, each with different stats; and there are at least half a dozen interesting monster classes, each with different stats. Then there are multiple main-hand dagger combinations based on your gear level. Do you really want to see a guide with 4x3x6 sets for TP and SA/WS and TA/WS, then subdivided into what your mainhand is? What if someone didn't put in dagger merits and wanted sets for that? What if Feint's on, or Dia is on, or someone accidentally overwrote the whole thing with Bio III? What if you're in Ballista?

I simply cannot cover everything. I can and hope to describe concepts for most reasonable situations, and I can hope to help people figure out everything else, but I cannot cover everything.

Second, I don't think a guide *should* cover everything, because it gives the reader nothing to do. I plan on linking to the THF spreadsheet as soon as I can figure the thing out because that's a good resource for everyone. In my opinion, the guide should provide a starting point, a baseline for what the community thinks is the THF standard, as well as information on how to move past that point. It is a learning tool, but if they read it and thereafter become mindless guide-zombies, then I have failed.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-03-12 15:40:47
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Yes notes should be added for worthwhile points(ie: if ddex is capped this is better than that, etc).
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-03-12 16:03:48
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There are five races.
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By Cerberus.Mindi 2013-03-12 16:11:47
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Sylph.Malizia said: »
I couldn't find any good information on TH against Provenance Watcher on the internet, so if you're saying PW's direct drops are affected by TH that is useful. I mentioned the THF holding the cats because my group does that, but if the THF is really there for the TH, I'll make a quick edit to reflect that.

Well PW itself has a treasure pool and can drop 1-3 items, so TH should have an effect ^^; If anyone know it doesn't i'll be corrected :)
For augmented gear should also add the minimal augments ppl should go for to use this equip over others.

and a situation where THF gets double march+haste? 1st: Having a BRD/WHM mule (its not rare that ppl make Darubalalab-mule-brds) :) and well any lowman stuff where one is brd (we use a brd and a thf in Meeble) Allways when you arent booted out of a PT with a Brd in VW, Dynamisfarming like for ADL/Arch-Diabolos and whatever you would use THF. I am often just to lazy to change my job from THF to something else when ppl shout for VW and they are often fine with relic99 THF (not like there are many hard VW fights) its a E/R/M DD! And normally you are just in place of a DD in a DD PT so yea chances are you'll might get March.. but probably not haste lol (lazy WHM's yay!) Its not that rare to find yourself with double march and haste.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Waffless 2013-03-12 16:58:43
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Cerberus.Mindi said: »
other pieces are:

snakeeye umm... (1 tick)
dusk jerkinummmm... (should be 1 tick)
muscle belt +1 2 tick, only active when below 50% HP (NQ is 1 tick)
lycopodium sash is 3 tick, but only on daytime.

Dusk Jerkin +1 is 2/tick. People can T1 it now, had a JP leathercrafter make one for me and it was only 700k.
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By Sylph.Malizia 2013-03-12 17:08:39
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
There are five races.
>< let's pretend I said something to the effect of "tarus don't count, they're only for punting"
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By Ragnarok.Flippant 2013-03-13 02:34:07
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Sylph.Malizia said: »
Horrible base damage, but incredible delay, and 5% triple attack! This clearly is an offhand dagger. Against monsters with low defense, this can out-DPS your STR Thokcha, but against hard content it will fall behind.

Wanted to mention that I hardly ever get STR Thokcha winning against Pug regardless of your current PDIF or fSTR, and when it does it's by less than 1 dps. I'd generally rate Pug as the third best offhand, after 99 Twash and 95 Twash.

Based on a very quick look down the list of default targets in DPS, best Mandau offhands, I get:
99Twash > 95Twash > 90Twash/Corus (when hitting dDEX sweet spot) > Pug > STR Thokcha/Aluh > 90Twash/Corus > 85Twash > Lux Pugio

This is by no means for every situation, but given that you don't know the exact stats of what you are fighting all the time, it should be a safe summary. These results are also based on ideal sets.
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By Cerberus.Mindi 2013-03-13 03:03:36
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Quetzalcoatl.Waffless said: »

Dusk Jerkin +1 is 2/tick. People can T1 it now, had a JP leathercrafter make one for me and it was only 700k.

oh thats cool, kinda. Couldn't find any info on all the wikis about the regen potency so i assumed its just 1 tick for both since its an old lv 75 item and we weren't spolied with many regen equip :)
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