Apoc 99 Vs Ragnarok 95

thats my arguement! but for the original poster....for what its worth i may be planning to 99 apoc first, but 30% of that before rag is seeing if they reduce reso down when they do the merit overhaul

also side note, i really should build a spellcast for drk.... i have about 15 .txt files for it that i do manually via macro

If Drk had to worry about having 26% gear haste in pretty much any fight these days, Apoc would be much better off. The thing is, 3% gear haste sounds nice, but there comes a point where shedding haste isn't very possible. If we want to talk about Voidwatch, you only need 8% gear haste with a Ragnarok and I've never seen a build that doesn't use at least that much haste in the Head and Legs slot combined. You will basically always use either Phorcys Salade or Bale+2 Head, and you will basically always use either Phorcys Legs or Calmecac Trousers. Outside of Voidwatch you need 12% gear haste, for a Ragnarok this means using Bale+2 Head and Phorcys Legs. Now I don't know my Apoc sets at all, but this could, assuming you don't need phorcys for STP, allow you to use Calmecac trousers making use of at least a small amount of Apocs aftermath. For the most part though the only use Apocs aftermath has is in events that last longer than Last Resort, which do exist but are vastly out numbered by events that don't last longer than 4 minutes.

I did sort of generalize the situations I think apoc is a better option but I'm not wearing calmecac pants in legion.
I still think you're being close minded.

ACC can become an issue in Legion. I ditched any effort to build a 5 hit TP set with capped haste and focused on maximizing ACC and capped haste. I think in this regard scythe is easier to obtain higher ACC and cap haste, however the challenge comes in comparing overall dmg. I still use Rag but have not explored or attempted in getting a 99 Apoc and testing the catastrophe WSs in legion.

My current setup for Rag in Legion is using adaberk with DA and STP mods and bale gauntlets +2. Use phorcys boots for the double attack and use the legion haste 2% to cap haste. another 2% DA from the legion ring. It still needs work but slowly getting there.

God damn it I will just do apoc99 and rag95 both.

Fixed it for you. ADL is hard.

I'd rather do ADL than another *** killshot trial. I'm too lazy for that ***.

Not sure what you're talking about. Do them trials on ADL!


Scourge, Scourge, Scourge, Scourge, Scourge, Scourge



hey, hey, hey













Scourge

ADL is not really hard, what is hard is luck factor :(
I'm banging my head on the wall doing this mob.

what luck factor? you have 50% chance of picking the right clone. with good squalls even if you kill wrong clone, a good dd party should have no trouble killing both clone in time. the only thing you really have to worry about is implosion/tera.

Honestly you are probably trying to hard. If you need some help hit me up in game or PM me here.

Is there easy way to do the 75-90 trial solo as drk? Kill 1500 mob is harder than getting 15,000 coin.

Did mine 75-90 in one day. Long *** *** day but involved 2-4/5 other rag users all doing the trial and 1-2 done with the trial swapping in and out here and there to help out. Daru brd giving x2 march and attack. My mule giving out haste in rotations/cures made life a hell of a lot easier to deal with as well. All relic trials suck, just have to suck it up sadly.

Yep, just suck it up and be grateful you didn't have to do it pre-nerf like some of us. Sadly there is no quick way completely solo.

Worst case, you do it solo at ~60 per hour and it takes 25 hours. Although it should be quicker as the first trial is just WS'es not killshots and you generally do more than 60 an hour.

It isn't that bad.

I really did'nt find the killshot trials bad at all.. the attest nm trial is the only on that "sucks" really >_>
1 popitem in 2hrs etc :D

You don't seem new to drk.

Psuedo necro-post, but wanted to throw more info into the ring. Just finished my Apoc after agonizing over which one to do first, and I have to say that Catastrophe is such a unique effect that the scythe should get some serious consideration if you're trying to decide which to make. I undervalued it immensely, and if you regularly do anything lowishman it's a godsend. Managed to keep standing in ZRII today with 3 gears and a chariot on me because of it and I don't think there is any other item in the game that would have allowed me to live. Seriously. You may think you're 'considering' the drain effect, but weigh it more heavily in the benefits of an apoc column.


Also want to bring attention to quote below. Excellent information that I hadn't even thought about when comparing the two weapons since the aftermath, I think, is really what helps make Apoc competitive. Thought-provoking~

3 gears and a chariot is one thing, but wait til you get a taste of what you can tank when you've maximized your hybrid build and, 99ing your apoc. With support, you can tank just about anything, excluding some extreme cases.

Edit: I would also direct attention away from that quote. It fails to mention that he's talking about a world in which you have capped magic/ja haste 100% of the time. Embrava has been nerfed, and will likely not be used all that often anymore, and you will not always have a brd with you to give you songs. also, effects, such as LR can be dispelled. A dedicated drk will have multiple sets depending on whether you have capped haste, or no haste, or whatever, but there is never a good reason not to have 26% worth of gear on you at all times, nor is there ever any good reason calmecac legs should be used in favor of phorcys. The only legs out there right now you should consider replacing your phorcys with are ares +1, or kers for aftermath when your haste is capped.

He did make one good point though:

I got 99 Apoc and Rag 95. I love being DRK and invested a lot of time into making these and using the weapons. I made Apoc first and don't regret my decision at all. But, if you've already finished all your missions and solo stuff, the value of Apoc kinda dwindles to just a show-off "I can live through anything" tanking tool. That's a little over exaggerated though. Most of the time, I tried to show some respect to my Apoc when soloing some hard missions or monsters. But some mobs were too hard, so I would just pull out BST and call it a day. You are not invincible with Apoc, but pretty close to un-killable on fodder mobs and quite a few NMs. In some cases of Hundred Fists/multi-hit mobs, THF with capped evasion , Counter MNK, or BST are better for soloing. This is when mobs are hitting you for 100+ damage and they never miss, which is high-level content. You will not live to see the light of day on DRK on hard-hitting, multi-hit mobs even with Apoc (but maybe with healer support and your -DT gear) because of DRK's low evasion skill. In the end, it's a respectable DPS weapon, but its main weakness in all events is the WS damage when compared to Ragnarok.

This is just from Nyzul/Salvage/VW perspective. You will see on avg. 500-1.5k damage difference between Cata and Reso, Reso being the better of the two. This means 1.5-3.5k cata vs 2k-4.5k or even 5K+ Reso. It's uncommon to get Catas > 3K without Souleater. If your Apoc is 99, you will see the occasional 3k+ cata spike without SE. If Cata misses and you are low on HP, you are fuc*ed because it is basically a one-hit WS that will not drain anything or do damage in that case.

Low-man situations with a horrible healer or no Regen, Apoc will win. Sometimes you get Regen V on you in Nyzul, then you should switch to Ragnarok instead; Rag will make the mobs go down much quicker than Apoc due to Reso's chance of one-shotting. If you go into NNI, I would use Ragnarok over the Apoc unless you have no Regen or a train of mobs pummeling you. I would never take a DRK with no Rag or decent GS for a serious NNI run.

The main reason I like Apoc is the abilty to Souleater-s**t myself to death and not worry about dying without an attentive healer. It also makes you more aggressive, and you will survive after WS'ing with SE rather than close to death after Reso'ing with SE. That's only with the lack of healer-support. In most VW groups, the healers should be able to heal a Rag DRK with SE on unless your group is horrible. And if you are the tank in Salvage or some other event besides VW on a hard-hitting mob, Apoc is mandatory.

If you are a serious end-game DRK, you should have both. You may make Apoc first, but if you really like this game and love DRK, that Ragnarok will slowly start to get on your nerves. If you will only make one and your not that interested in ADL or VW zerg-fests, Apoc is what you should choose. Still, some people will look down on you for choosing Apoc; the difference I mentioned previously between Cata and Reso's damage is a great one in situations where healing is not a problem and there is a strict time limit like Nyzul or high-man zergs.

Edit, my final verdict as of Adoulin release: Salvage as DRK, you should have Apoc. Nyzul is more acceptable with Apoc post Embrava nerf, but its better to have both. Apoc will turn your DRK into a tank, which is necessary to tank Salvage/Legion. Currently, Adoulin is very hard to solo as a DRK with/without Apoc unless you have a healer bi*ch due to DRK's crappy evasion. On the other hand, Rag is only good for is zerging situations and squeezing more WS damage to beat a timer. Before they boost R/E/M weapons, Crobachi + augments is better than Rag atm. Apoc wins, and it's definitely the more interesting option because it literally changes the role of the DRK job from DD to tank.

Gonna go ahead and say to ignore the "I would never take a DRK with no Rag or decent GS for a serious NNI run" statement. I've been 15/15 for quite awhile, and one of my team-mates (a well known player on this forum) was an Apoc DRK. He was very effective.

Since Embrava changed, you are probably right. Usually you would be over 100 TP but that's not the case anymore, so one-shotting with Ragnarok kinda diminished in that event. If Embrava was unchanged, I would disagree with you.

You're welcome to disagree, but I can legitimately say that a well-prepped Apoc DRK can ruin NNI just as well as any DD, staying alive without attention from a healer, and this was before any of the changes to make the event easier.

It depends on how good of a Dark you are. I've beaten a lot of 95 Ragnarok Darks on parse with my 99Apoc. I've been beat by a few aswell.

As a Taru I feel a greater benefit from Apoc than Rag.
Cat is AGI/INT mod and Entropy is INT. Right down a Taru's ally.

<3 my Apocalypse

OH and it helps keep my face off the ground... gotta love squishy Taru DDs ^_^

@ an Iga Alima run the other day i parsed a 95 Apoc WHOOP this 99 Ukko every time >>

And when i went NNI with Apoc its great for when you dont have regen5 on etc

Apoc really has no place in Legion. If you find yourself needing the drain effect of Cata in Legion, the solution is to open your linkshell's recruitment for new WHMs.

So Ragnarok Darks make better Sub tanks than Apoc darks. Because having a 10% Gear Haste Aftermath and Drain on WS doesn't make a difference. Cause You would rather have WHMs cure bombing, running low on MP, and pulling hate. Did I get that right? Let me know if I misunderstood what you are saying.

Get a new linkshell/group if you have those issue with rag in salvage/legion.

You've made quite a few leaps and assumptions. Mostly that show a lack of understanding of the event.

1. The difference in damage between an Apoc and a Rag in Legion is not going to be made up by the drain on WS. In fact, the drain on WS is not going to be enough to keep you up anyway, so you will still need a WHM curing you.

2. With the significantly lower damage output, the mob will stay up longer, thus requiring the WHM to cure everyone longer, which is more likely to cause mp issues than not having the intermittent, unreliable means of draining HP with your WS.

3. 10% gear haste? This isn't level 75. Capping haste via gear while still capping acc, attack, and adding in QA/TA/QA gear is not even remotely a problem at this stage of the game.

4. Any group worth anything will have vile elixirs for their mages on the off chance that ***hits the fan and MP somehow gets too low, although this is a lot more likely to be related to issues with stunners than what weapon a DD is using.

I've personally witnessed the same DRK regularly come with his 99 apoc, then finish his Rag, and go from parsing as low as 7% to being on par with the usual suspects for winning the parses (Not that parses mean everything, but just an example of the difference between the 2 weapons in the same player's hands). Kill speed is important in an event like this, in order to minimize the amount of time your stunners have to stun TP moves, letting BRD/COR buffs stay up, keep healer MP up, relieve your PLD of holding as many mobs, and maximize the number of drops you're getting by killing more iterations of the final wave.

Well when it comes to "TANKING" Salvage/Legion. 10% Gear haste is important. It helps to create better Hybrid builds.

If your DRK is tanking in Legion, your PLD has failed.
Your PDT set is more important than trying to build 100 TP for a drain effect.

Ragnarok is still best for Legion because of the 35-40 ACC already on the weapon.

Since the adoulin content, the situations I have been in, the apoc has for the most part saved me (when it doesn't miss). This includes revies, dynamis farming, and other small group content.

As for the Skirmish weapons, the GS from there is better for spamming resolution on mobs that are not evasion or acc does not matter much. Scythe, however, since you are using catastrophe spams, is more beneficial in terms of WS DMG bonus and the aftermath effects.

My motto has always been: a dead DRK is a useless DRK.