Mandau Twashtar Etc.

going to the store now, but i really would like to try these equations, PM me please

The avgs being discussed are based on an INFINITE set. That is quite the opposite of only using 1. If you mean are we looking at it in different SITUATIONS like fighting an hmm with no buffs vs fighting a lv0 bunny in east Ron, then that is a different thing than what is being discussed, but that isn't even necessary when we are talking about base damage stuff because that is the root aof the damage and both daggers would be affected by atk/def the same way (although mandau gives 40 atk and has the advantage anyway). Also we can account for those different situations anyway. That's all I can figure is that you mean different situations like different mobs/buffs. Not different averages. At least I hope that is what you mean or else you are terribly confused

I agree with this well said. Id personally never go with a tp bonus dagger though. I generally use twash in abyssea and mandau outside just from eyeballing it seems rudra is marginally stronger in abyssea and mercy and attk from mandau for exent out of abyssea. Either way they are close and its nice to use a different ws once in a while. People who dont like what the math tells them are usually stubborn and arent unlocking their full potential!

Excuse me for going back a page and a half but I thought that TP bonus on offhand didn't work for main-hand? I rarely use dual-wielders anymore. Was that something that was just the level 70 TP bonus and not the magians? Do I have my head up my *** right now?

Magian trial ones do work offhand, but the 'martial' ones don't.

Yup magians work offhand for tp bonus. I've checked myself. Blatantly obvious using aeolian edge. I even used to go twash/tp bonus before I got mandau. It was fun for the epeen numbers :)

Thanks! Sorry for the interjection. Carry on with the witch trials :x

That's the thing, they "did" this to come to a good conclusion.
The avarage they'r talking about it the avarage of an infinate amount of attacks, so it's really, if you wear this gear forever, and that gear forever, and keep hitting, which set does the most dmg in "the end"

That's why testing done with a pool of like.... 100 results is dismissed and people expect you to go whack 10000 times etc etc etc

Hi guys. im currently working towards a 99mandau as have 99d weps for my other 2 fav jobs already and thf is next up. Recently obtained a Pugiunculus and have been using this, now im no maths head but on junk mobs it seems to shine (loleyeball). Main thing iv noticed is kill speed in salvage(with enfire up obv.) and farming other junk mobs for scrolls etc, triple attack rate seems ungodly also with my current tp build below:-

Using rcb on everything btw but curious how this dagger stands up against str Thokcha as was considering offhanding this full time when i get my mand sorted. I never thf in VW/Legion so not interested in how it stands up against mobs that highLvl(I know str Thokcha would win in these situations), only use thf for salv/abyssea/dyna(dc)/farmin junk outside.
Thanks in advance for any advice.

As far as old salvage goes I full time thf knife off hand, you're still gonna clear any zone besides BR within an hour and imo theres no reason not to have bit more th. So salv is mandau/thf knife, dyna mandau/oynos then swap to thokcha and abyssea you could use twash instead as mentioned I think they're close in abyssea though. Obviously when neo salvage comes out I wouldnt use thf knife throughout the run though.

Let's see here. Let's first assume capped pdif/fStr/everything

TP phase
49dmg coruscanti vs 42dmg tpbonus dagger

Let's use a nice, round number and say 18 total hits to WS, half of which will come from offhand dagger. so 9 hits.

Assume the coruscanti only gives +5% crit for now. One-two, skip a few, magic spreadsheet math and press-o~

tp bonus 2905
Coruscanti 3108

Difference of 203 in favor of the coruscanti in total tp phase damage

WS phase
Str = 119
Dex = 200
23 crit damage bonus
16DA/14TA rate

*magic spreadsheet math*
3804 damage with no offhand dagger
4463 damage with tp bonus dagger
4006 damage with coruscanti

(I just ripped these numbers from my personal spreadsheet. I can provide the math if anyone wants to see it, but I promise you won't like it)

Difference of 457

So, TP bonus dagger wins.

A few things to consider, since I used really loose numbers.

1) Coruscanti will gain some ground if the 15dex will increase your crit rate at all. Crits help more on harder stuff than it does on weaker stuff.

2) I've ignored severe damage entirely. If you throw that into the calculations, Coruscanti will gain some more ground by however much the severe damage helps, whatever that amount may be.

3) Tp bonus dagger gains some ground when fStr isn't capped(tp phase damage will be reduced to 358). The coruscanti, being a 49dmg weapon, has a +1fStr advantage over the tp bonus dagger when you have adequate STR.

4) There are various instances in the game(abyssea/vwnm/etc) where you gain extra stats. These will tilt it towards the tp bonus dagger even further. For instance, if you pop a Braver Drink and gain 15dex

4006 damage no offhand
4695 damage tp dagger
4208 damage coruscanti

Difference of 487.

Hop into abyssea, slap on RR and +30dex from cruor bonus.

5847 damage no offhand dagger
6863 damage tp bonus dagger
6089 damage coruscanti

Difference of 774 damage.

Of course, this all makes sense because when you have absurd amounts of dex, adding another 15dex won't help nearly as much as adding an extra 1.0fTP.

----

Just a quick note, since a couple people might try to replicate my math and not get my numbers. I also included DA/TA procs, from both hands, into my calculations. If you wanna try and do that, have fun.


tl'dr
tp bonus dagger > coruscanti

coruscanti might pull ahead on really hard stuff, but that seems unlikely, considering the difference it has to make up.

edit: I found a small error(even though it completely changed the outcome of my results) in my calculations. I calculated it as if I needed 18 swings from both weapons to reach adequete TP levels. You only need 18 total, so 9 from both weapons. That drastically lowered the difference in damage during tp phase, the one area where coruscanti pulled ahead. WS damage remains unchanged.

I really need to re-test Coruscanti to see what it's actually doing now, but I can't force myself to care.

it sounds like your coruscanti is just giving the crit rate to your offhand. It adds 5% to BOTH hands if thats not how you were checking it. There is a thread around somehwere that tested the severe damage proc. The info is out there, i just dont remeber where exactly off the top of my head. It was here or BG though.

Also, the TP bonus pretty much requires the use of rudra full time to gain its benefit. Coruscanti heavily boosts Evis (crit rate applies fully, and the 15 dex and higher base D). Ultimately it depends on the situation if you can spam rudra 24/7 without gimping yourself. I did it back in the day when i 1st got twash because there wasnt anything better and exenerator didnt exist. Now it would be pretty suspect to blindly rudra even when unstacked with how powerful exenerator can be if geared properly outside abyssea and how broken evis is inside.

Theres a lot more going on that would need to be considered. Is offhand corusc + evis or exen spam with 5% crit rate, 1-11% crit rate from 15 dex, and higher general DPS with occasional stacked rudras sprinkled in for AM and damage better than unstacked rudras with TP bonus+AM? Thats a little more complex to figure out.

I stopped bothering to look into it when i decided to go for the 99 twash for offhand, so im afraid i havent really given it much thought once i confirmed 99 twash offhand beat corusc. /shrug

I calculated the crit rate into both the mainhand and offhand. 5800-6200 are absurdly high numbers for damage during the tp phase if it was just coming from 1 hand.


There we go.

Anyways, you shouldn't be using Evis on the outside of abyssea anyways. Neither dagger does anything, base damage aside, for Exenterator.

5800-6200 is ridiculous high numbers for both hands tp phase too.
Thats 330+ damage per hit. I got 2327 with 30% crit rate and 5fSTR (Twashtar+TPbonus) and 2551 with Twashtar+Coruscanti (2693 if Coruscanti adds 15%crit rate).

I will try to calculate all of this myself soon and will post the results so we can discust this more.

Nah-nah, I changed it before someone called me out on it.

How you got 23% crit damage bonus for WS dmg?
Why you calculate Rudra with SA/TA with TP phase when you will do probably Rudra(stacked) only 25-50% of the time and other 50-75% will be unstacked Exenterator for which TP bonus will do ***.

Just calculating it in accordance to my set

14 + 5 + 4 = 23, natural + athos body + athos legs

I'm not sure what you're asking with the second question; especially since I already said, and we all know, that neither dagger does anything(besides base dmg) for exenterator.

So basicly, if all you do is spam rudra for some reason, tp bonus is good?
Otherwise, don't.

I'm curious how you came to that conclusion.

Nothing I've said even remotely hints towards what you're suggesting.

little late but i think dude mans problem with avgs is his number of weaponskills is to low so his avg isnt stable. Ur avg becomes increasingly accurate with more and more records of the variable. maybe thats the piece of info ur missing mea. Id bet ur biscuits that ur problem cause i cant see anyone believing avgs arent real.

Not quite the point i meant. Corusc wins in DoT by a wide margin and wins by a tiny margin for exen (base damage/acc from dex). So if your not using rudras, its no contest. Question im askin is what type of WS spam did you use to get your numbers. Unstacked rudra spam? Only stacked rudras every ~30 sec? Mix between exen when SATA down and Rudra when sata up?

If your primarily using exen then TP bonus has nothing to compete with as its just a lower DOT dagger that isnt even affecting exen. If your using Rudras all the time, then its a suspect play style and should be compared to a mixed exen/rudra style. If its mixed, then it depends entirely on how often you stack vs how often you freestyle exen which is heavily affected by haste. To many unknowns.

Its just the questions raised when the methodology isnt crystal clear with the magic spreadsheet numbers. You dont have to data dump the spreadsheet on the forums, just tell us what assumptions you were using (buffs, mob, assumed WS style used etc) so we can make sure its measuring everything in a realistic fashion.

In you used TA or SA numbers for Rudra and in your summing up you suggested that Coruscanti is more or less equal to TP bonus because WS dmg make up for melee phase loss (that was before you corrected your TP phase numbers). I ask why you assume ONE tp Phase dmg (18 swings) vs ONE Rudra when you will use Rudra stacked only like 25% of the time. You should compare difference that Coruscanti gives for like 4 TP phases vs bonus that TP bonus gives for one Rudra. That is also exactly why Kvazz summed up your post like that.

EDIT: If you dont understand my post then Aanalaty wrote pretty much the same but with better english.

I finally made an excel to calculate Ws dmg for THF.
My numbers are way different then your

With capped attack I have SARudra (twashtar+coruscanti) at 3456 damage avg.
Things I assumed:
1. 100 TP
2. SA only force crit on main hit which is 3.5 fTP (+ 120%DEX damage from SA)

Im not sure how you got your 4000 but I bet you probably calculated whole fTP as crit.

I hate my mouse. I truly hate my mouse. I also have little interest in retyping allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll of that again.

And you get 4000+ by taking into consideration DA/TA. 13%DA and 11%TA will get you a 169 swings out of 100. Multiple the offhand damage by 1.69 and you should get approximately my number, give or take some.

And bgwiki lists fTP at 3.25.

I just plugged 3.5 into my spreadsheet and it spit out 3408 for the first hit alone. Did you throw in the damage from the offhand hit?

I thrown everything TA/DA too. I actually made sets for both WS too.

3.5 is with moonshade earring.

How you can get 3408 from main hit when you have

WSC 102
Base 55
fSTR 3 (I did for 110 vit mob)

thats 160 total
fTP 3.5
crit bonus 1.22
pdif 3 (tho its not exactly that high for capped attack)

160*3.5*1.22*3=2049 Its way off your numbers
Its SA so I have DEX with SA doing 863 dmg in this case
304 damage from sub hand
288 from TA/DA (13%TA 20%+DA /war)
Total 3480

Yeah all o can figure is that your Ss is applying your da/ta stuff to the entire ws this multiplying your sa damage. No one is getting an avg of 4k rudra on anything. Something is broke

I bloody hate this thing. I bloody hate it.

Sorry, you're not going to get the 2000+word version. You get the tl'don'twannabloodyretypeit version instead.

You're using both a different gear set and a different set of constants than I am.

Up your crit pdif from 3 to 3.15
Up your non-crit pdif from 2 to 2.52
Up your fStr from 3 to 13
Up your dex from 200 to 215
Up your crit damage bonus from 1.22 to 1.23
Lower your fTP from 3.5 to 3.25
Lower DA rate to 13
Lower TA rate to 11

Let me know what number you get.

off-topic: I know there used to be a firefox plugin that saves all the text you type into a textbox, in case you backpage or otherwise somehow erase it. Does anyone remember what it's called <_<

lazarus