Here's another debatable question: Why the hell is it so hard to adopt. How many people do you think would carry the child to term if there was a family there to adopt this child.
I think abortion should be reformed, not abolished.
I would have had a sister if it wasn't for the crazy adoption process. They got like 18 months into the damn process and some stupid, nonsenseable reason made it not work out. It was also crazy expensive or something.
I've heard it is really expensive to adopt in the United States, but maybe that's only true for specific races of children. I believe this is why people started turning to Russia and China for adopting, but I think the prices are rising over there, too.
5. People usually have children to see their own lineages continued. While you can gain all of the experiences of being a parent from raising an adopted child from infancy many people relish that moment your little son/daughter shows you glimpses of yourself - those tiny quirks that are passed from parent/offspring.
You can rub off some quirks on an adopted child but it's not quite the same as a biological offspring.
I think this is more of a male thing. I have no problem never bearing a child of my own and strictly adopting children, but I'm not sure my boyfriend would feel the same way. :p
It's been a dream of mine to adopt a child. What can I say? I like dogs best from the shelter, too. Things that should have a home but don't tug on my heartstrings.
But there's a few things to consider. It's cheaper to adopt a child from out of the country, however, adoption from some of these places is popular because some parents want an 'exotic' child. Since it's popular, there's actually rings of kidnappers who steal children from perfectly loving homes to sell in adoptions to American couples. I will not partake in that.
So, any child I adopt needs to be from within the US. Not because I dislike other countries, but because I refuse to contribute to ripping families apart with kidnapping. It doesn't matter what color skin the child has, though, as long as the parents were willing to part with it.
There's also the problem of age. Most people would wish to adopt an infant. I'm no different! I want to see the first steps and hear the first word and have all those cute little baby experiences. But that's also a problem for me because I know there are so many older children who need loving homes. Sure, there would be some added difficulty in adopting a five or ten or twelve year old, considering the emotional baggage they'd bring along. But babies aren't the only ones who deserve homes.
And I would also like the experience of being pregnant. I think hormonal fluctuations, nausea, stretch marks, and a child's head ripping my lower half apart to come out would be well worth it to have felt the child live within me and form the tight mother-child bond that goes along with it. I want to be pregnant.
So here's the thing. My husband and I want two kids. We'll try for those two biologically. Assuming there's no problems such as one of us being infertile, we'll have our two kids. Then if we decide we want more kids after that, instead of bringing more children into an already crowded earth, we'll look into adopting children that are already here and need homes.
That's my dream. Have two children of my own, and adopt some more. Color doesn't matter. Age sort of matters but I'll get over it.
You guys are kind of leading up to exactly my point/. If a pregnant woman is considering abortion and knows there is a family waiting for her to have that child so they can adopt, do you think it would influence their decision any at all.
The adoption process is majorly flawed. It shouldn't take someone 18 months to adopt a child, or to find out they can't. It is ridiculous.
It's not like there's a shortage on kids to adopt (and even if it were, that's tough luck on people who want to adopt).
Abortion should still be someone's choice. There are some people who will choose to do it. There are some people who will choose to have the kid and then put them up for adoption.
People who want to adopt can choose from those willing to go through with the pregnancy and put their kid up for adoption.
It's not like there's a shortage on kids to adopt (and even if it were, that's tough luck on people who want to adopt).
Abortion should still be someone's choice. There are some people who will choose to do it. There are some people who will choose to have the kid and then put them up for adoption.
People who want to adopt can choose from those willing to go through with the pregnancy and put their kid up for adoption.
I agree with that, wasn't really arguing against abortion (see my last page posts).
You guys are kind of leading up to exactly my point/. If a pregnant woman is considering abortion and knows there is a family waiting for her to have that child so they can adopt, do you think it would influence their decision any at all.
The adoption process is majorly flawed. It shouldn't take someone 18 months to adopt a child, or to find out they can't. It is ridiculous.
There aren't enough families waiting to adopt is one problem.
For two, I do not think we should force people into decisions. Why should I force a woman to carry a child she's only going to be abandon anyways?
It's been a dream of mine to adopt a child. What can I say? I like dogs best from the shelter, too. Things that should have a home but don't tug on my heartstrings.
But there's a few things to consider. It's cheaper to adopt a child from out of the country, however, adoption from some of these places is popular because some parents want an 'exotic' child. Since it's popular, there's actually rings of kidnappers who steal children from perfectly loving homes to sell in adoptions to American couples. I will not partake in that.
So, any child I adopt needs to be from within the US. Not because I dislike other countries, but because I refuse to contribute to ripping families apart with kidnapping. It doesn't matter what color skin the child has, though, as long as the parents were willing to part with it.
There's also the problem of age. Most people would wish to adopt an infant. I'm no different! I want to see the first steps and hear the first word and have all those cute little baby experiences. But that's also a problem for me because I know there are so many older children who need loving homes. Sure, there would be some added difficulty in adopting a five or ten or twelve year old, considering the emotional baggage they'd bring along. But babies aren't the only ones who deserve homes.
And I would also like the experience of being pregnant. I think hormonal fluctuations, nausea, stretch marks, and a child's head ripping my lower half apart to come out would be well worth it to have felt the child live within me and form the tight mother-child bond that goes along with it. I want to be pregnant.
So here's the thing. My husband and I want two kids. We'll try for those two biologically. Assuming there's no problems such as one of us being infertile, we'll have our two kids. Then if we decide we want more kids after that, instead of bringing more children into an already crowded earth, we'll look into adopting children that are already here and need homes.
That's my dream. Have two children of my own, and adopt some more. Color doesn't matter. Age sort of matters but I'll get over it.
That's so sweet, Liela. I'm not totally sold on the pregnancy/childbirth bit yet. :p
However, I think if you did your research, you could find reputable adoption organizations in other countries.
I have very mixed feelings about pro life vs pro choice. On one hand, abortion just feels wrong to me. I don't know why. It could have something to do with being a father, or just the compassion I have for all kids. It just feels wrong to me.
However, on the other hand, that is not my decision to make for someone else. I cannot say that someone else shouldn't do something because of the way I feel.
Now, I do say there should definitely be a time limit. I say that someone considering an abortion should have to make a decision before the sixteen week mark. Most people know well before week 10, and 6 weeks is plenty of time to make a decision. No need to drag it out.
This is my original post, because I think some missed it. I am not saying force anyone to make a decision like carry a child just to abandon it. I was just saying that if adoption wasn't so hard in this country, and if it was an option to have some of these women who feel abortion is the only way out, I think there would be less abortion cases in the US. At this point, the way the adoption process is now, it is not a viable option.
This is my original post, because I think some missed it. I am not saying force anyone to make a decision like carry a child just to abandon it. I was just saying that if adoption wasn't so hard in this country, and if it was an option to have some of these women who feel abortion is the only way out, I think there would be less abortion cases in the US. At this point, the way the adoption process is now, it is not a viable option.
That clears that up. I 100% agree.
But I also think that it's a social issue: I think we have to stop demonizing people who get pregnant when they don't have the means to support the child, even if they were irresponsible. By perpetuating a culture where these young women are harangued and harassed, trash talked and berated for getting pregnant too young or outside of wedlock we've made the entire act to be known as downright shameful, and the fact that abortion is demonized just as equally puts immense pressure on these young folk that sometimes just honestly *** up.
We have to become a more accepting society where we stop putting our noses in business that isn't ours, and where we stop demonizing people for mistakes.
This is my original post, because I think some missed it. I am not saying force anyone to make a decision like carry a child just to abandon it. I was just saying that if adoption wasn't so hard in this country, and if it was an option to have some of these women who feel abortion is the only way out, I think there would be less abortion cases in the US. At this point, the way the adoption process is now, it is not a viable option.
That clears that up. I 100% agree.
But I also think that it's a social issue: I think we have to stop demonizing people who get pregnant when they don't have the means to support the child, even if they were irresponsible. By perpetuating a culture where these young women are harangued and harassed, trash talked and berated for getting pregnant too young or outside of wedlock we've made the entire act to be known as downright shameful, and the fact that abortion is demonized just as equally puts immense pressure on these young folk that sometimes just honestly *** up.
We have to become a more accepting society where we stop putting our noses in business that isn't ours, and where we stop demonizing people for mistakes.
backread to a couple of pages ago where somebody was saying people should only have sex to reproduce...
there's way too many people with backwards thinking...
Here's another debatable question: Why the hell is it so hard to adopt. How many people do you think would carry the child to term if there was a family there to adopt this child.
I think abortion should be reformed, not abolished.
I'm absolutely for adoption, but they need to allow more leeway. I have no idea why the process is so hard in the US. My German aunt and uncle adopted their daughters from the Czech Republic over a decade ago. It took them months to make the adoption final (of course they have to take the time to do a thorough evaluation of the family adopting), but I think that the adoption laws in the US are more stringent than in Europe for some reason.
If I remember correctly, they had a disappointing five years before the adoption of my cousins. (Moms bailing out in the last minute and what not, which can be understandable.) It was an emotional roller coaster for my aunt and uncle in those five years.
What's really bad now is my cousin who was two at the time of the adoption has some really bizarre psychological problems. (I think they let my cousins know too early that they were adopted.) My cousin and uncle do not speak to each other in any capacity. They completely indulged both of them, I guess to compensate for all the years that both wanted children so badly, but the older one has just turned out rotten! It makes me so sad that my aunt has to go through the stress of having such an ingrate in her home. Her younger sister is well mannered and very loving.
I think she saw some really terrible behaviors from her birth mother that she may or may not remember to this day. When I was about twelve or thirteen we went over for our annual visit after the adoption. I saw her get on top of a stuffed bear and mimic sex. There's no way that she had any concept of what she was doing, but even at that age, it disturbed me that she must have seen it.
The last time I went to Germany in 2007, I was home alone with both my cousins. I heard them get into a small skirmish. When I went in to intervene, the older one had the younger one cornered. She didn't see me as I entered the kitchen behind her. I watched her completely wail on her younger sister before I jumped in, pulled her hand back, and gave her the verbal finger wag of a lifetime. My brother went to visit with his son more recently. He also caught our older cousin beating the younger one closed-fisted. Yeah...Both my brother and I "got into it" in our childhood, but never as malicious as that, and never in our teens! I'm really afraid that the older one has serious rage issues.
The older one consistently has terrible performance in school, constantly lies, etc. It's just bad. I jumped on Skype with my German family on Christmas Eve. It took every ounce of restraint not to ream that girl for her horrible behavior. It wouldn't do any good anyway. My brother and I have both tried to speak to her. All of my cousins and second cousins who are all in their twenties or early thirties have tried. We've got nothing!
What scares me now is that she has her first BF. She's going to get pregnant. I know it.
Sorry to dump family drama, but yeah...Her sister is the sweetest thing on the planet. Adoption can be a double-edged sword. "A Tale of Two Siblings"?
Oh yes. Murder should legally be someones choice. But lets not go half way. Theirs no equality in only being allowed to murder babies. So while were at it, lets legalize murder for everyone!
If nothing else, weapon sales will go up, which will help out this economy. And it'll take care of this over population problem we have in a big big hurry!
/end sarcasm
Which bring me to yet another question. It was stated earlier that it should only be womans choice to kill. And men shouldn't have the same say. So we have established that some ppl want sexist lawmaking.
However;
Abortions target only babies. So if you legalize murdering them, isn't that prejudice itself?
Are [you] only targeting them because they cant defend themselves? Because i guarantee you that if they were preaching legalizing murdering any other specific group (be it race, gender, class, anything) that whole group would be up in arms.
Oh yes. Murder should legally be someones choice. But lets not go half way. Theirs no equality in only being allowed to murder babies. So while were at it, lets legalize murder for everyone!
If nothing else, weapon sales will go up, which will help out this economy. And it'll take care of this over population problem we have in a big big hurry!
/end sarcasm
Which bring me to yet another question. It was stated earlier that it should only be womans choice to kill. And men shouldn't have the same say. So we have established that some ppl want sexist lawmaking.
However;
Abortions target only babies. So if you legalize murdering them, isn't that prejudice itself?
Are [you] only targeting them because they cant defend themselves? Because i guarantee you that if they were preaching legalizing murdering any other specific group (be it race, gender, class, anything) that whole group would be up in arms.
The issue is really whether a not a fetus can be considered a human being at the point of conception. The universally accepted standard of being alive means you have one of these things (this is not my definition, but those who are typically pro-life):
• The ability to be aware of your surroundings.
• The ability to feel pain.
• The ability to breathe.
• The ability to make choices.
• The ability to feel, ie: love, hate, etc.
I have read a lot of articles with Roe vs. Wade and actually am interested in the arguements provided by both sides of the panel. I have pretty much come up with the conclusion that most pro-life supporters are extremely biased in their views and refuse to see the other standpoints of where they are.
If you look at the criteria presented above who is to say that killing cows for beef, destorying trees for home, or killing convicts for crimes is any different than abortion. In most cases all three of the aformentioned parallels apply to 3 of those 5 criteria. In most senses a fertilized egg isn't aware of its surroundings, cannot feel pain as a nervous system has not yet been developed, cannot breathe as a respitory system has not beem developed, make no choices or feel anything while in that stage (this has yet to be proven).
Aside from the logical standpoint of abortion, socially it is up to the person(s) involved in getting pregnant.
Oh yes. Murder should legally be someones choice. But lets not go half way. Theirs no equality in only being allowed to murder babies. So while were at it, lets legalize murder for everyone!
If nothing else, weapon sales will go up, which will help out this economy. And it'll take care of this over population problem we have in a big big hurry!
/end sarcasm
Which bring me to yet another question. It was stated earlier that it should only be womans choice to kill. And men shouldn't have the same say. So we have established that some ppl want sexist lawmaking.
However;
Abortions target only babies. So if you legalize murdering them, isn't that prejudice itself?
Are [you] only targeting them because they cant defend themselves? Because i guarantee you that if they were preaching legalizing murdering any other specific group (be it race, gender, class, anything) that whole group would be up in arms.
At what point do you think a clump of cells is a living, conscious human being? Dead skin cells flake off onto everything around you all the time. That's not murder. Hair and nails were once living cells. Cutting them off is not murder. Scrubbing your legs with exfoliating body scrub on a loofah is the act of sloughing off dead skin cells by the hundreds. That is not murder. An egg and a sperm are simply two cells. At what point, would you say, do those cells become conscious? Do you think Plan B, which prevents these cells from implanting on the mother's uterus, is murder?
And under what circumstances (if any) do you think abortion is acceptable? Is it acceptable after rape or incest? Is it acceptable if giving birth will risk the mother's life?
Do you think if a mother will neglect, abuse, or mistreat her child, the child would have been better off aborted?
And at what point does the fetus' rights overpower the mother's rights?
I'm not necessarily trying to change your mind. I just think you should take all these things into consideration when making your choice to be pro-life.
I've said it before and I'll say it again-- the thought of abortion makes me uncomfortable and uneasy. But there are circumstances when I really think abortion is the better option. That's why I'm pro-choice.
Oh yes. Murder should legally be someones choice. But lets not go half way. Theirs no equality in only being allowed to murder babies. So while were at it, lets legalize murder for everyone!
'cept you forgot something. A fetus is not a baby.
Just wondering, but do any other states impose this law where the mother must have an ultrasound and/or a sonogram before going through with an abortion, or is it just Texas? This is a relatively new law here. Not sure if it was passed or was just hear-say or whatever.
Also, I do legitimately feel bad for a couple of guy friends whose GFs had their pregnancies nixed. One of which, had an abortion three times with HIM! Who knows how many she had with others, if she did? They both had their degrees, were settled into their careers, he bought his house, and they had the finances. Geez! He could have taken care of a child on his own!
It disgusted me, because that very night she joined us at the bar. She had those vics and booze, and acted as though nothing had happened. The guy, on the other hand, was distraught. She basically used abortions as birth control all three times. I can understand one "oops", but three?!?
I've only run into one other girl in college who did the same. I think I've already dumped that story in another thread. A couple of friends and I walked in on her having a train run on her, so she was that type of girl.
I'm absolutely for adoption, but they need to allow more leeway. I have no idea why the process is so hard in the US. My German aunt and uncle adopted their daughters from the Czech Republic over a decade ago. It took them months to make the adoption final (of course they have to take the time to do a thorough evaluation of the family adopting), but I think that the adoption laws in the US are more stringent than in Europe for some reason.
If I remember correctly, they had a disappointing five years before the adoption of my cousins. (Moms bailing out in the last minute and what not, which can be understandable.) It was an emotional roller coaster for my aunt and uncle in those five years.
What's really bad now is my cousin who was two at the time of the adoption has some really bizarre psychological problems. (I think they let my cousins know too early that they were adopted.) My cousin and uncle do not speak to each other in any capacity. They completely indulged both of them, I guess to compensate for all the years that both wanted children so badly, but the older one has just turned out rotten! It makes me so sad that my aunt has to go through the stress of having such an ingrate in her home. Her younger sister is well mannered and very loving.
This is partly why even under the most perfect scenarios (fast and easy adoptions) that adoption will always be something people hesitate to do. Even at 2 years old the effects of terrible biological parents can give the adopting parents a laundry list of issues to modify and overcome in a child.
One of my cousins took it upon himself to have a son and because my cousin is a bit young himself and worried about his own life the kid has been developing without much 'rudder' as it were. He'd throw blocks, run around, yell, scream, tear up books, bite people and often wasn't above telling lies which were all signs of not enough discipline.
Eventually he left the kid over by father the self-proclaimed disciplinarian and after 6 months the results were completely night and day. He took to reading, asking questions, stopped yelling for attention and started to be overall respectful to adults but of course the second he went back to his parents all of the work came undone and he's back to being a brat.
It's partly the work you put in coupled with how "damaged" the kid is when you get them. Some kids can be fixed and others are doomed to problems that follow them for the rest of their lives.
This is really why I can't see adoption as the panacea that some try to spin it when the abortion topic comes up. Sure, you can get an adopted child and craft them into a productive member of society but the chances of getting a child that comes with so much baggage is equally likely especially as they start to age.
A 5 or 6 year old child can come pre-loaded with so much baggage that no amount of good parenting can undo the process.
'cept you forgot something. A fetus is not a baby.
Thanks for your insight and wisdom. After your proclamation of fact, regardless of your lack of any authority whatsoever to make this determination, I'm sure the tide will be turning.
Just wondering, but do any other states impose this law where the mother must have an ultrasound and/or a sonogram before going through with an abortion, or is it just Texas? This is a relatively new law here. Not sure if it was passed or was just hear-say or whatever.
I really hate the idea of such a law because it's painfully obvious the hospital is trying to slather on the guilt when really the hospital should have no say in what a woman's decision is or why she's having the abortion.
I mean she could lack the finances, have been raped or simply concluded she's not ready for for a child but many of the pro-lifers could care less about finances because it's all about shooting out babies and then to hell with what type of home or life they live in.
When said person then needs to take welfare to then feed and clothe the baby? LEECH, GOVT HANDOUTS, WORK YOU LAZY SOD.
Sex-ed to prevent abortions? NOT IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD. IT'LL MAKE KIDS HAVE PRE-MARITAL SEX. TOO GRAPHIC FOR MY KIDS EYES.
At what point do you think a clump of cells is a living, conscious human being? Dead skin cells flake off onto everything around you all the time. That's not murder. Hair and nails were once living cells. Cutting them off is not murder. Scrubbing your legs with exfoliating body scrub on a loofah is the act of sloughing off dead skin cells by the hundreds. That is not murder. An egg and a sperm are simply two cells. At what point, would you say, do those cells become conscious? Do you think Plan B, which prevents these cells from implanting on the mother's uterus, is murder?
And under what circumstances (if any) do you think abortion is acceptable? Is it acceptable after rape or incest? Is it acceptable if giving birth will risk the mother's life?
Do you think if a mother will neglect, abuse, or mistreat her child, the child would have been better off aborted?
And at what point does the fetus' rights overpower the mother's rights?
I'm not necessarily trying to change your mind. I just think you should take all these things into consideration when making your choice to be pro-life.
I've said it before and I'll say it again-- the thought of abortion makes me uncomfortable and uneasy. But there are circumstances when I really think abortion is the better option. That's why I'm pro-choice.
Since nobody is capable of making these determinations? Why err on the side of convenience rather than on the side of life? Because you don't want to offend women whose respect is determined by how much you agree with them?
Because people have abortions due to convenience.. Right.
Also, "life" isn't the debate. Personhood is. The cells are "alive" from before the sperm ever meets with the egg. The question is at what point of development do we determine protection rights. There is no soul, there is no fine line. It's just a subjective determination based on physical and cognitive development. Stop being dumb.
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I really hate the idea of such a law because it's painfully obvious the hospital is trying to slather on the guilt when really the hospital should have no say in what a woman's decision is or why she's having the abortion.
INORITE? How dare people not be allowed to have the consequences of their actions be swept away without any "bad feelings"?! Next thing you know you'll gain weight from overeating or have to pay credit card bills for spending too much!
I mean she could lack the finances, have been raped or simply concluded she's not ready for for a child but many of the pro-lifers could care less about finances because it's all about shooting out babies and then to hell with what type of home or life they live in.
There's a novel solution that I like to call "adoption".
I'm absolutely for adoption, but they need to allow more leeway. I have no idea why the process is so hard in the US. My German aunt and uncle adopted their daughters from the Czech Republic over a decade ago. It took them months to make the adoption final (of course they have to take the time to do a thorough evaluation of the family adopting), but I think that the adoption laws in the US are more stringent than in Europe for some reason.
If I remember correctly, they had a disappointing five years before the adoption of my cousins. (Moms bailing out in the last minute and what not, which can be understandable.) It was an emotional roller coaster for my aunt and uncle in those five years.
What's really bad now is my cousin who was two at the time of the adoption has some really bizarre psychological problems. (I think they let my cousins know too early that they were adopted.) My cousin and uncle do not speak to each other in any capacity. They completely indulged both of them, I guess to compensate for all the years that both wanted children so badly, but the older one has just turned out rotten! It makes me so sad that my aunt has to go through the stress of having such an ingrate in her home. Her younger sister is well mannered and very loving.
This is partly why even under the most perfect scenarios (fast and easy adoptions) that adoption will always be something people hesitate to do. Even at 2 years old the effects of terrible biological parents can give the adopting parents a laundry list of issues to modify and overcome in a child.
One of my cousins took it upon himself to have a son and because my cousin is a bit young himself and worried about his own life the kid has been developing without much 'rudder' as it were. He'd throw blocks, run around, yell, scream, tear up books, bite people and often wasn't above telling lies which were all signs of not enough discipline.
Eventually he left the kid over by father the self-proclaimed disciplinarian and after 6 months the results were completely night and day. He took to reading, asking questions, stopped yelling for attention and started to be overall respectful to adults but of course the second he went back to his parents all of the work came undone and he's back to being a brat.
It's partly the work you put in coupled with how "damaged" the kid is when you get them. Some kids can be fixed and others are doomed to problems that follow them for the rest of their lives.
This is really why I can't see adoption as the panacea that some try to spin it when the abortion topic comes up. Sure, you can get an adopted child and craft them into a productive member of society but the chances of getting a child that comes with so much baggage is equally likely especially as they start to age.
A 5 or 6 year old child can come pre-loaded with so much baggage that no amount of good parenting can undo the process.
Agreed. She has taken a huge toll on my family with her piss poor attitude. Nobody knows what to do. My European side is very close-knit, but all of us have just given up.
She doesn't understand how competitive the real world is, and we're all so afraid that she will simply just become her birth mother. They release the medical records of birth mothers there upon request. I don't know if they do that in the US or not. This woman had six pregnancies by the time she was twenty-two, two of which she aborted, the four succeeding were all given up for adoption.
Another complication happened after the adoption. The older one's birth father tracked down my aunt and uncle two years after everything was said and done, and was threatening to take her away. That year was a legal cluster-*** for my aunt and uncle until he finally just gave up. So sad.
Because people have abortions due to convenience.. Right.
Also, "life" isn't the debate. Personhood is. The cells are "alive" from before the sperm ever meets with the egg. The question is at what point of development do we determine protection rights. There is no soul, there is no fine line. It's just a subjective determination based on physical and cognitive development. Stop being dumb.
Not all are for convenience, only about 99%. You are the one being dumb. Apparently you don't understand or care about the complexities that define life, but boy you are ready to flush anything that doesn't meet your standards. Since when did you get a say on who is alive or not, or the existence of a soul? I know you feel smart, but feelings can be deceptive. Much, MUCH greater minds than yours come to differing conclusions. Proclamations such as yours show a misplaced faith in your own intelligence. In the absence of knowledge, I choose to err on the side of life.
