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Validity, Pros, and Cons, Of 5/5+2 Empyrean set.
By Serj 2011-01-25 21:07:32
Fenrir.Littlechaos said: As far as set bonus goes, I have 4/5 of the SAM and the set bonus imo is pure garbage. I mean wearing full AFv3 to try and get Zanshin to proc for extra damage is just sad. Then again SAM hasn't really been getting any more love since the lvl 80 update. My wep has +30 ACC on it (Lv.80 Amano) and the AFv3 itself has a large amount of ACC itself. So relying on a set bonus that requires you to miss is sad indeed ; ;
As far as the crap with Ilax goes. in the past 2-3yrs I've known him there have been numerous people to hate him for some reason or another. From EXT elitist tendencies to the random person calling his play style for thf gimp. I know "of" a few people on this thread, but I don't know you well enough to speak on you, but this guy Ilax really is a cool dude. He's helped our multiple ls's out as well as a lot of people ingame, but yet ppl still find the time to piss on him. As momo said though, this silliness of attacking someone over a game is quite entertaining in a sense.
Last note, does anyone know what the NIN's set bonus pertains too? I know it augments dual-wield, but how?
Either OAT or DA to offhand hits.
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By Fenrir.Littlechaos 2011-01-25 21:13:02
Serj said: Fenrir.Littlechaos said: As far as set bonus goes, I have 4/5 of the SAM and the set bonus imo is pure garbage. I mean wearing full AFv3 to try and get Zanshin to proc for extra damage is just sad. Then again SAM hasn't really been getting any more love since the lvl 80 update. My wep has +30 ACC on it (Lv.80 Amano) and the AFv3 itself has a large amount of ACC itself. So relying on a set bonus that requires you to miss is sad indeed ; ;
As far as the crap with Ilax goes. in the past 2-3yrs I've known him there have been numerous people to hate him for some reason or another. From EXT elitist tendencies to the random person calling his play style for thf gimp. I know "of" a few people on this thread, but I don't know you well enough to speak on you, but this guy Ilax really is a cool dude. He's helped our multiple ls's out as well as a lot of people ingame, but yet ppl still find the time to piss on him. As momo said though, this silliness of attacking someone over a game is quite entertaining in a sense.
Last note, does anyone know what the NIN's set bonus pertains too? I know it augments dual-wield, but how?
Either OAT or DA to offhand hits.
Thanks Serj. I look forward to validating this :) Sounds kind of like the enhances Innin, but more applicable.
By Serj 2011-01-25 21:19:51
Fenrir.Littlechaos said: Serj said: Fenrir.Littlechaos said: As far as set bonus goes, I have 4/5 of the SAM and the set bonus imo is pure garbage. I mean wearing full AFv3 to try and get Zanshin to proc for extra damage is just sad. Then again SAM hasn't really been getting any more love since the lvl 80 update. My wep has +30 ACC on it (Lv.80 Amano) and the AFv3 itself has a large amount of ACC itself. So relying on a set bonus that requires you to miss is sad indeed ; ;
As far as the crap with Ilax goes. in the past 2-3yrs I've known him there have been numerous people to hate him for some reason or another. From EXT elitist tendencies to the random person calling his play style for thf gimp. I know "of" a few people on this thread, but I don't know you well enough to speak on you, but this guy Ilax really is a cool dude. He's helped our multiple ls's out as well as a lot of people ingame, but yet ppl still find the time to piss on him. As momo said though, this silliness of attacking someone over a game is quite entertaining in a sense.
Last note, does anyone know what the NIN's set bonus pertains too? I know it augments dual-wield, but how?
Either OAT or DA to offhand hits.
Thanks Serj. I look forward to validating this :) Sounds hawt to me.
Np, just what I've heard through the grapevine. Could be updated by now, dunno though =\
Cheers~
 Phoenix.Kirana
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By Phoenix.Kirana 2011-01-25 21:19:56
I encourage everyone to ignore the flamewar and resume discussion of the thf af3+2 5/5 set bonus.
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By Serj 2011-01-25 21:20:52
Phoenix.Kirana said: I encourage everyone to ignore the flamewar and resume discussion of the thf af3+2 5/5 set bonus.
I think we're headed back that way.
 Phoenix.Hagino
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By Phoenix.Hagino 2011-01-25 21:31:03
what we do need is a 3% haste neck.
but i will play with 5/5 i guess tonight to see what my results are.
Phoenix.Kirana
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By Phoenix.Kirana 2011-01-25 21:35:00
I played around with 5/5+tiercel last night during a tahrongi run, I noticed the triple damage proccing very often. For now i'm keeping my TP set on 5/5
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-01-26 01:24:39
I speculated very early that set bonus with 5/5 AF3+2 on Apoc/Alpha/RR to synergize damage around triple attack would be ideal. Most of the THFs in my LS have generally started gearing towards this. The Atma combination's triple proc frequency helps a lot with WS frequency to compensate for lost criticals.
My complete guess is that Triplus will trump Rapidus in this setup. I'm sad that I had to get another Tiercel... I sold mine for 50k ages ago and now we will never get Fiat Lux again lol
Ragnarok.Flippant said: Rudra's Storm is pretty underwhelming, actually. Moreso without SA/TA, which you rarely get the chance to WS with anyway.
Rudra's is basically a DEX based Mercy, one hit with large FTP and WSC. So damage wise it's most efficient to stack in order to get +120 more damage to exploit the bonuses. Wafik was the one that pointed this out when he first got Mandau, around the time THFs started doing DE unstacked, that you need to play Mandau in a stacked style even if it means holding back WS for a few seconds.
The problem within Abyssea is that RR just makes Evisceration impossible to topple due to five hits critting with a significant damage bonus. Added to the sheer WS frequency we have now, timers simply don't support the style of play that optimizes Rudra and Mercy damage.
The best thing SE could do for Mercy/Rudra though would be to reduce SA/TA to 30 seconds
Once we leave Abyssea though I see at least a return, partially, to stacked Mercy style play. We'll still be able to cap haste a lot easier now without sacrificing other stats and there's a lot more 2A/3A gear. But we won't be walking around with +100 stats and the ability to ignore accuracy. We'll need attack buffs again, and we won't have atma's with 2A/3A. It's likely we'll be moving towards a "Toss Evisceration, save SA for Mercy whenever you can align timers and TP."
The lack of Atma will probably make using full Raider's +2 for the set-bonus inefficient. We'll come out of the Abyssea exodus worse than NINs in that respect since their Dual Wield augment will remain incredible and doesn't depend on Atma to synergize with it.
Phoenix.Hagino
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By Phoenix.Hagino 2011-01-26 04:21:53
I still think outside of abyssea my setup is good :(
most wont agree but i try to gear up a universal set that will work best outside of abyssea and still be good inside.
yes yes gimp no love torque yes yes
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Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-01-26 04:34:42
I wouldn't tp in love torque now anyways. Get haste one and use af3+2 feet. Or if you don't have use something with store tp or subtle blow/evasion for tanking/soloing. The neck of attowha's T2 VNM is pretty nice. Definitely better than PCC. Managed to get 2 the other day dual boxing as thf/nin and drg/war lol. Was just trying to get malachite so was nice bonus
 Fenrir.Ilax
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By Fenrir.Ilax 2011-01-26 08:24:41
Sylph.Gredival said: The best thing SE could do for Mercy/Rudra though would be to reduce SA/TA to 30 seconds That would be nice, or just a new JA that allow you to perform SA without to be behind the mob, kinda like hide but without loosing hate + working on sound and sight mob. That imo would be awesome update for thf.
Phoenix.Kirana
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By Phoenix.Kirana 2011-01-26 08:36:23
Fenrir.Ilax said: Sylph.Gredival said: The best thing SE could do for Mercy/Rudra though would be to reduce SA/TA to 30 seconds That would be nice, or just a new JA that allow you to perform SA without to be behind the mob, kinda like hide but without loosing hate + working on sound and sight mob. That imo would be awesome update for thf.
I would definitely welcome a trait like this. It could be similar to how assassin augments Trick attack. When fighting NMs nowadays, it's not uncommon for the NM to be turning all over the place, making it impossible to sneak attack.
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-01-26 10:52:26
Dasva said: I wouldn't tp in love torque now anyways. Get haste one and use af3+2 feet. Or if you don't have use something with store tp or subtle blow/evasion for tanking/soloing. The neck of attowha's T2 VNM is pretty nice. Definitely better than PCC. Managed to get 2 the other day dual boxing as thf/nin and drg/war lol. Was just trying to get malachite so was nice bonus
I just don't think gearing towards the set bonus is worth it outside of Abyssea.
We're talking about a triple rate of 19% outside versus a 45% inside (using both Apocalypse and Alpha & Omega). Assuming a full set bonus proc of 6% (I still think that's a bit conservative) that gives us the following chances for triple damage triple attack
Inside with full set: 2.7%
Inside with 4/5: 1.35%
Outside with full set: 1.14%
Outside with 4/5: .57%
Swapping out AF3 feet/Tiercel for Homam Feet/Love Torque gives us 1.4% Haste for true cap, 7 Attack, 13 accuracy. I think inside Abyssea this isn't worth it because the accuracy and attack is a wash so we're only weighing 1.4% Haste a near equal percent chance for set proc. But outside Abyssea you're weighing it against only .57% chance proc of the set bonus. Also by the time we're concerned with stuff outside Abyssea the accuracy will also probably be important again.
On that subject I also think worth considering this outside Abyssea
Dual Wield/Accuracy augment on the ACP body (again going to assume we won't be living in a capped accuracy world after Abyssea. The chance to proc the AF3 set bonus on this set outside of Abyssea is .38%
Net differences between this set and 5/5 AF3 with Tiercel are
+3% Dual Wield
+1.4% Haste (capped from 2% on true cap)
+2 Dagger Skill
+10 Accuracy
-3 STR
-6 DEX
-.75% chance for set bonus
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By Fenrir.Mtmoogle 2011-01-26 11:11:20
GDI you guys got back on topic.
/leave
Fenrir.Ilax
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By Fenrir.Ilax 2011-01-26 11:21:29
Don't forget TH -1, but ya looking at this setup and would be probably best DPS/TP outside abyssea.
What you think about add back Body+2, Hand+2 and Rapidus sax.
You loose 3% DW on 176x2 (352) but other dagger set would be 176+150 (326)
You would also get back the STR,DEX bonus, 5 more dagger skill and even more acc.
Only sad part would be the DPS, 49/38 vs 49/32.
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2011-01-26 11:42:39
Rapidus Sax is poor nowadays even if you can benefit from the 1% Haste.
[+]
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-01-26 11:45:39
Fenrir.Ilax said: Don't forget TH -1, but ya looking at this setup and would be probably best DPS/TP outside abyssea.
What you think about add back Body+2, Hand+2 and Rapidus sax.
You loose 3% DW on 176x2 (352) but other dagger set would be 176+150 (326)
You would also get back the STR,DEX bonus, 5 more dagger skill and even more acc.
Only sad part would be the DPS, 49/38 vs 49/32.
First, learn to put TH items on for one hit then switch?
Second, not worth it. The point of that set was to further push attack speed with dual wield while retaining max haste and the Triplus dps. That setup goes over the haste cap, might as well toss Ballerines for Homam to get more accuracy and even then can keep haste capped with Triplus... in other words, if you chuck dual might as well stick with the 4/5 set with Homam feet.
 Remora.Laphine
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By Remora.Laphine 2011-01-26 12:01:11
Good to see the thread back on track after 5 pages~
Here is my opinion: A world that needs acc is probably a world that needs attack. This will also be a world where fstr matters. A world where fstr matters is probably a world where crit from dex will matter. Full af (well, 4/5) provides some real boost to these. I'd say Raider hands alone might beat dw mirke in this situation.
Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2011-01-26 12:44:58
Mandau/Twashtar
Or reverse. Whichever.
Fenrir.Ilax
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By Fenrir.Ilax 2011-01-26 12:51:41
ya i agree, idk why i added ballerines in this combo, homam would be the choice for sure, no point for ballerines.
For DPS, i just can't remember the equation (dmg/delay) ect, i have impression you would get better dps in that setup, the only flaw i can see is the 3% triple attack bonus that you loose. Hand+2 offer great attack bonus and sneak attack damage bonus, for Body+2 again you get more attack form the +5 dagger skill.
For DW, is alway nice to stack, but if you have to wear a dagger combo that is ~8% slower then i don't really see the point of 3% DW here. 352/326 = 1.079)
Also that combo bring back the [4/5: 1.35%], for what it worth outside abyssea + reducing 3% on TA, i can't tell really, might be a flaw in damage overtime.
Maybe i forget about something else, obviously i do that often :(
Fenrir.Ilax
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By Fenrir.Ilax 2011-01-26 12:55:45
Bismarck.Ihina said: Mandau/Twashtar
Or reverse. Whichever.
I was thinking about that other night, is sad... Mandau as sub you loose mercy stroke, so i assume is same deal for Twashtar. Some told me you loose the hidden effect (3x dmg) if you sub relic, i never did any test on that so i have no clue if is true or false.
Mercy Stroke aftermath is like +5% crit hit, something i almost never even notice, in revenge Twashtar is double damage aftermath, i would for sure go Twashtar/Mandau, but if you loose hidden effect then i don't really see the point of that combo.
*edit: outside the 49/48 dmg of course.
Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2011-01-26 12:59:50
The hidden effect(aftermath) only comes from performing the appropriate WS.
And it's rather situational. Mandau/Twashtar is undoubtedly better for Evis spamming, which you will be doing 95% of the time. If you fight something that doesn't turn(Cerb/Hydra/Khim/etc) or use hate reset often (Diremite in Ule), Twashtar/Mandau is better.
Siren.Ilax
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By Siren.Ilax 2011-01-26 13:02:55
Bismarck.Ihina said: The hidden effect(aftermath) only comes from performing the appropriate WS.
No, i was talking about the real hidden effect, Mandau have 3x dmg hidden effect (WS or not) is not an aftermath, is 5% proc.
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2011-01-26 13:06:19
You lose that too. Mandau simply becomes nothing more than an incredibly powerful dps weapon offhand.
Fenrir.Ilax
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By Fenrir.Ilax 2011-01-26 13:10:48
Kinda sad then, that combo would confuse me day long.
Remora.Laphine
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By Remora.Laphine 2011-01-26 13:20:50
2x damage from twash is better than the 3x damage from mandau due way higher proc rate(30-50% vs 5%). So Twash mainhand provides better dps if you can use Rudra's the way it should be used (charged with sa/ta).
Phoenix.Hagino
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By Phoenix.Hagino 2011-01-26 14:21:16
my old setup before heroes was
but i swapped homam feet for ballarines and gloves for homam + mirke with DW and Crit
that setup actually hits "faster" then my current one
of course different back ring and bullwhip
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By Asura.Karbuncle 2011-01-26 15:06:52
Inside of Abyssea, I just don't see a need to full-time an accuracy neck anymore unless you're fighting something like Indrik...
You should really consider getting that...Acc/atk+8 Subtle Blow+5 Necklace, I forgot what its called :(
IDK, seeing someone wear a Peacock charm makes me confused/raged as much as would seeing a level 90THF still using a Blau Dolch >.O, can't explain why.
and certainly not against you :P
By Serj 2011-01-26 15:09:11
Phoenix.Hagino
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By Phoenix.Hagino 2011-01-26 15:26:05
oh i know, im still 0/22 on that neck piece so i just use this for now~
I'd like to first cite this:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Estoqueur%27s_+2_Armor_Set
For those of you too busy to search through it, At the bottom, it implies that wearing the full set grants a bonus above expected with the previous pieces.
Elaborating, 2 pieces extends Duration of buffs casted on others under the effects of Composure by 10%, 3 gives 20%, and so on. 5/5 Expected bonus was 40%, however the bonus is 62.5%, proving, more or less, that it appears full +2 Set grants a bonus to the "Set bonus" beyond expected values.
now, With optimal gear on THF, it is possible to reach 24% Haste and full 5/5+2, (25% if you wear Rapidus, I would not), through means of the following:
*Raider's+2 Head - 6%
*Raider's+2 Body - 5%
*Raider's+2 Legs - 5%
*Twilight Belt - 7%
*Tiercal Necklace- 1%
This totals 24% Haste (About 1.4~% from true haste cap)
Now, The assumed value of Triple Damage proc on THF+2 with 2 sets was 1%, 3 2%, etc etc, up to 5/5 expected 4%, now, If its like RDM set, it means we might expect to see about a 6% Proc rate on 5/5+2, 3% more over 4/5 (Which is usually required to cap haste safely for THF).
Now i know the "Triple Damage" is not a straight mod, there is something further at work here, as with a short test on Fear (?) mobs in Abyssea-Altepa, my Average SA in my TP gear showed about average ~900~1,100 Damage (which for the test was 5/5 THF+2). Activated a "set bonus" to see a 4,300 Damage Sneak Attack, Well beyond expect "3x" Value of 3,300. Others have reported strange Damage spikes beyond the norm, so it could not be just a simple "3x" mod.
No, I know its usefulness will widely vary based on your current gear/buffs due to them having a direct impact on Triple Attack rate. I'd like for the sake of Argument to assume a 34% Triple Attack rate:
10%Base(merits)
3% Head
3% Ring
3% Dagger
15% AoA
There is also a bit to factor in current Haste (buffs/songs), Dual Wield, etc, to determine if you're getting truly that last 1% haste as well.
I'd like the opinion of fellow THFs. I have found myself in Abyssea TP'ing in 5/5 THF+2 simply for the added rate of Set-bonus rate, And it is to my liking, seeing ~600 DMG Critsx3 in succession with some luck has favored me toward it. But i often times question is validity or usefulness.
So, In conclusion, I question, Is the assumed gain of a 3% chance to 'Triple' your damage output via Triple Attack worth a sacrificing in 1% Haste value? 0.~4% if using Rapidus?
I would much appreciate any Input and discussion on the subject, as i really have no other person to ask.
(The one i did usually ask has more or less been on hiatus for a while)
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