Hecatomb Questions

And I'm saying that the person Cecilharvey was quoting wasn't saying to use Heca for tp'ing. He simply stated that str would do more for you than haste. He even stated it would be stupid to tp in. However... Just for illustration, with the previous numbers in the formula... You'd get ~3 hits in 33 seconds for a full heca set while tp'ing in it compared to the ~5 hits of a full haste set. This equals out to 630 damage with 210 dmg hits compared to 850 with 170 dmg hits.

And ONCE AGAIN, these are only illustrations with the math! :P

yea but if you TP in heca your just dumb
Its not just about the dmg, its recast timers on spells too

*gets owned*

But still, no need to go highbrow like you do. Cecil has been plenty right in plenty of posts, and wrong too, just like everyone is. Considering these forums are the ONLY contact you have with him, you can at least be civil. You may have a stick up your *** where he's concerned, but I for one hate reading your condescending, rude and generally OTT posts.

But you have other posts which aren't like that, I like those ^^. The mathematical side of things is very welcome, since I don't have the patience for it myself. But all the mud-slinging makes me just not want to read it.

Tbest, just because i *** love you & your so smart posts



/troll OFF!

Saiya <3

For a War using GA Removing Similar Stats
Heca harness is 12 STR 8 ATT 10 ACC = 6 STR
Hauby +1 is 6 STR 16 ATT 16 ACC = 8 ATT 6 ACC

Im sucky with working out the math (Maybe Raen can help here) but it comes down to would you take 6 STR or 8 ATT for a 3 hit WS with 50% STR mod.
(If your acc is too low, obviously you keep the Haub+1 for the 6 ACC)

I'm gonna try KJ with a full STR build, there's quite a few pieces I could add in.

Whenever I go to experiment with different builds, I accidently hit a gear swap macro (any macro really <_<) and have to manually swap all gear again >_>

Using a full STR build my KJ usually put up similar numbers to a non-crit RR.
I do lack however Nhead, HQ Nbody / hands / feet, and seismac axe (sp). I'm elf w/ full STR merits and use this setup for KJ.

Perdu V / Pole Grip /------ / O. Satchet
V Sallet / Sea Gorget / Bushi / Brutal
Heca Har / Heca Mitt / Flame / Rajas
Forager / War. Stone / AF2 Pant / Heca Legging

You guys have it all wrong. I mean not those of you talking about KJ, but the people that responded to my actual post. Just for demonstrative purposes, Scenario!

I'm using Soboro on SAM. My regular TP gear consists of...

-Haste+12%. (Yeah I know, it's not much, but I don't use SAM all that often so I haven't bothered with endgame for it.)
-STR+22. (Again, nothing special.)
-Attack+29.

My regular melee hits (Still with Soboro) on Greater Colibri hit 60-75 damage, no food, in the aforementioned TP gear.

Okay, THEN I switch to my WS gear for melee, just to try it out:

-Haste +0%.
-STR+61.
-Attack+19.

My melee attacks have now almost doubled, going from 60-75, up to almost 120 average. I did not add in Hasso or any outside factors. BRD was still using the same Minuet that he's had up for the past 2 hours. The only thing that changed was my gear.

Now, assuming these numbers were accurate (Not parsed, but I did use a calculator to find averages) I doubled my melee damage by adding 39 STR. It certainly beats the 12% faster attack speed. But wait, that's not all.

I only have +61 STR in gear. The more STR you have, the more useful it becomes. It rises exponentially in damage output. Projected outcome for 3x my original damage is around 79 STR. I think the max a SAM can get through gear is 75 (Correct me if I'm wrong), but with Hasso, that's 85, so my melee attacks with Soboro in full STR gear would be hitting MORE THAN 3x the damage as another SAM with Soboro in full Haste gear. Add in, say, Red Curry (STR+7), and that's +92 STR, which is damn near 4x the damage of my original melee swings, and that's not even including the ton of attack added from that curry.

Anyway, feel free to argue against me, but honestly, if NA FFXI players would stop being so narrow-minded and break the mold even a little bit, you'd see that Haste is not the solution to everything.

Go ahead and /discuss, but don't expect another response from me.

You see, i liked that post right up until the end, where you decided to get snotty and condescending.

My only addition in respect of total damage dealt is, Haste = Faster TP = More WS. The main aim of Haste gear isn't to provide DoT (though it is fairly good at it), it's to get to 100TP for a WS, or to lower recasts to make a job more effective in it's chosen role (WHM, NIN, PLD etc).
And declining to respond is a bit strange... almost like if you have points brought against you you won't have to explain or deal with them, because you've already 'washed your hands' on the thread. "I think i'm right, I don't care what you think, bye". Lol at you sir, lol.

Thank you.



Eh. I meant I was going to be logging out and whatever. Can't respond if I'm asleep, ya know?



-Responds anyway- Obviously, yes, this is true, but at the rate I was going (With Soboro at least, and it's almost the same with any other weapon), and this is in my TP gear, my damage from TPing was doing about equal to my damage from WS. 6 hits for 75 damage each is 550, and my Soboro WSs hit in the 550-600 range. This shouldn't surprise anyone. What surprises me, though, is why people insist on being able to WS 25% faster when in reality, doing the STR thing means 3x more damage (Reasonably) from TPing, which is 1.5x more total damage, as opposed to 1.25x more damage with 25% Haste.

I don't think you could really put the Soboro in the same vein as say, the Hagun for such a test? With the Soboro i'll admit your logic, but when wielding a higher delay GKT (and especially one with such a fantastic WS potential like the Hagun), I'd tentatively suggest that getting to 100TP 25% faster to then put out such a large spike (say 1.1-1.3k for argument's sake) would be more beneficial for overall damage than boosting your melee hits and swinging more slowly.

As I was writing this I thought of another point, may be right, may not. When swinging for tp we're all generally agreed that 6-hit > all, then the rest. After obtaining the 6-hit, are the remaining gearslots for the average SAM sufficient to apply the STR needed to have the effect you described? I imagine that Haste has a better Effect/Slots used ratio, making it more efficient?

Enternius makes some good points, but haven't all these questions been answered by the people who play with parsers a long time ago? And didn't haste win? It doesn't really bother me anyway, as I play blu/nin and couldn't give a stuff what my melee swings are doing, so I'll continue to tp in full haste (for utsu and head butt really). Now if only I could get the same numbers out of disseverment wearing full haste gear as I could in full STR/DEX gear I'd be a machine O_O

(Because I love quoting people for less than a sentence)

Nonono, Hagun would be a totally different story. Hagun is all about WS and totally useless outside of WSs. Gearing for melee damage with Hagun isn't smart.

That being said, I have easily outparsed most Hagun SAMs I had come in contact with using STR+Soboro, and my gear isn't even that great. Imagine what some of these uber SAMs could do if they stopped following the crowd and used something other than Hagun.

5 hit ftw

Yes. Haste won because the people who parsed were totally biased toward Haste. Back in the day, anything that made you look cool was preferred. Haste is one of the things that stuck.

Even if the people who tested were biased towards haste, the numbers and parses they posted wern't likely to be falsified. On the contrary, I would imagine most players are the same as me; If someone can demonstrably prove a better way of doing things, with their factuals to back it up, i'm happy to get on board because for me the way I want to play isto be as effective as possible.

People used to add attack into a Gekko build, but now it's been proven that Att+ is superfluous, and most people I know now religiously stack STR & nothing. When a proven improvement is introduced to the community, people tend to get on board, and I hestitate to think that the die-hard players who bother to test to such an extent would lie about the results because they like to cling onto the idea of Haste > All.
This as well. Even if a SAM's WS build still has the inherent 6-hit, surely the exemption of Acc/Dex would hinder the effectiveness of the DD as well as the limited slots to apply STR due to the 6-hit necessity? And this isn't just related to the Hagun, but the Onimaru too.

It's just the way NA people tend to act. It's the same with Hagun nowadays. It's so much worse now than it used to be because of all of the two-handed weapon updates, but people are too proud to admit it. But I'm not going to discuss that because it tends to bring out all of the elitist SAMs.

Edit:


Surely it's not perfect. Nothing is. But this presents the same problem when stacking Haste, does it not?

Sorry for the double post, you posted too fast while I was editing my last one^^. And you evaded me; even if they liked to cling to the idea, I don't think they would adulterate parse results simply for that end. Someone with a more honest conscience would have noticed and called them out. No sensible player would continue to use a logic that they knew was inferior both for themselves and for presentation to others. And it's a bit ridiculous imo to assume that they were all Pro-Haste in public but secretly used other better methods without telling anyone.

There's always going to be people that cling to their ideals. Americans are well-known for that principle.
If you look around, you see all Japanese players have moved on from the haste and/or Hagun fad. The best WAR I ever partied with was a WAR that TP'd in full (or almost full, didn't check him) Ares, dual axe, hitting 150+ per swing.

Ares is exceptional gear, s'abit of a bad comparison^^ And you're right there are always people like that, but there are also always fundamentalists who want to get the truest most realistic readout they can, and then improve upon it or take on the most effective method thereof. And in my experience these are the kind of players that bother to do such thorough testing and present it to the community. But I fear we're getting into a hypothetical discussion about humanity's inherent morality (or lack of XD)etc etc, so danger, danger!

I don't often get the chance to party with JPs, and i'm not in the habit of spam-checking. What's the general gist of their latest regime?

All of this discussion is why I like being a ranged attacker. It's as simple as STR or GTFO :)

To answer your question, sort of like this.↓

And yeah, I second that, Wooooody. I loooove RNG.

No, you haven't.
Unless!! Were the hagun sam's actually not in your party, and just standing afk off to the side?
If they were, then maybe you did outparse them, but if they were actually in your party, engaged, attacking, and WS'ing on the same mobs as you, then no, you not only did not outparse them, but you would have been crushed by them.

So the JPs have moved on to use exactly the methods you have described during this thread? Can anyone corroborate this, seems a bit too convenient, and more like you taking the opportunity for a bit of mediocre wit ;) Plus, it would have been splashed out in the same way that Haste was.

Normally I would be annoyed by Frobeus' reply, but he just helped prove my point. The mere mention of the word "Hagun" in a negative way just summons all these elitists who think "I'm better than you. Do it my way or go to hell." And unfortunately, I don't respond to that sort of behavior. Good day, sir.

Frankly, the reason it's convenient is because I'm Japanese. I know how we act, k?

Can you now post the actual parse you ran of this party that supports this?

I think there are two things that you really need to understand before trying to argue these kinds of points. You say that NA players are narrow-minded, but it doesn't seem that you have considered the factors that may have led you to this incorrect conclusion. You need to remember this game has been out for a long time. Players have worked out most of the actuall math that runs everything in the game. High end players with the best gear have tested, and tested, and re-tested all these different factors in trying to determine the best possible choices for all situations. Sorry, but your half assed - eyeballed - lolmath isn't going to overturn years of actual numbers that have been gathered in an unbiased manner. Without getting into the hardcore number crunching that shows just how wrong you are, it doesn't seem you are taking into account that stacking str and att will eventually have decreasing returns while haste, the more you stack has increasing returns.

Hmm. In previous posts you mentioned attitudes that are predominant in Americans particularly, with regards to sticking to their ideals even in the face of hard evidence. But all nations and their constituents are guilty of this in varying degrees. Judging by the flag above your avatar you hail from the US, so I can't help but get a hint of racial bias, and this is reflected in some of these posts.

You seem to feel strongly about this, and we in the FFXI community love proof by and large; why not parse this yourself and publish the results? Or use your familiarity with the Japanese player-base and grab someone else's parse to highlight your point? That way you can change minds on a broad scale, rather than trying to convince this particularly cynical brit^^. For the purposes of a forum dicussion, claiming you have sources of information that I can't reference and basing your replies on it doesn't hold much water :3

No one is saying, use hagun or go to hell. Geez, my own wife uses Onimaru on Sam since she is a mage main and neither of us could justify a 3 mil price tag on a weapon for a job she doesn't use that often, while she still has improvments to make on her mains. The problem is, that too often people who are too lazy to get a Hagun themselves try to come out and say that w/e inferior weapon they are using is just as good or better, in some lame *** attempt to justify their gimpness to themselves.

I have absolutely no problem with someone who says, "Hey I know Hagun is best, but I just don't have the gil atm or Sam isn't my main and thats hella expensive, I'll just stick to second best and be ok with it". Thats fine!!