Sa/Ta Bonus Cap Thx+ ? +4 +5 More...?

Read what I said carefully. If the more you hit the monster the higher chance of getting a TH proc then logically longer fights ARE the best option if you want higher drop rates on equipment. Im not saying that its optimal. If you can zerg an NM down 10 times in the time it takes for 1 normal group to do it you will get similar drop rates possibly. This is asuming that the TH doesnt have a hardcap. If you had an item that could drop off a monster with a 20% drop rate and you had a few thieves wacking away on the monster and you got the drop rate so it said TH+40 then I doubt any zerg LS would be suprised if the gimpy slow LS got the drop.

TH doesnt effect gil. Thats what gilfinder does. Go figure.

TH does effect regular items and rare ex. Go do dynamis or nyzul without TH and you will be QQing.

Post #2-7 .............. +1 internets.

well i never said that affect GIL itself droping from NM ><, i mean to say ITEM that you can sell for GIL or trade, or bazzar.

Like i said, I would like to see a parse showing that i am wrong about rare/ex gear, dare you to do dynamis without any thf and show me the prof there less af droping.

By my experience playing thf for 5yr, i never saw it affect rare/ex gear. I still have SS of kirin droping 2 W.leg, and it was the day we had no thf at all.

I also can confirm super easy, if no THF in dynamis = 50-80 currency max, with TH4+ in dynamis 250+ currency [Sandy run], for af... you wont see a difference.

I mean... its ok if ppl still think thf affect rare/ex item, that way we still get invite lol.

RARE/EX (TH have no effect)
RARE (TH Affect it)
EX (TH Affect it)
all item you can sell (TH affect it)

Edit: For QQing, i pass on it, bc as i stated we did too many event without THF and still got best drop [Rare/ex wise]. If you wan talk about QQing, is all THF being blame for they TH broken when it come to RARE/EX lol.

....You are aware that they changed the way TH effects mobs with the last update... If not, please retire the job.

you DO realise that even without TH that you can still get drops right? You make it sound like without TH you are execpecting nothing to drop at all. Which is not the case in any way shape or form.

TH works on a probability scale. Is it AS likely you will get drops without TH as you would with TH? no its not. But it IS still possible. One example of getting "good" drops without TH isnt a big enough sample for ANYONE to take you seriously. At least anyone who has actually paid attention to drop rates.

Its like what are your chances of pulling a woman at a bar? If you are not wearing your glad rags or if you are wearing them. Its less likely for one but not impossible.

Don't need to be such an ***... All things considered the way TH affects stuff depending if its R/X or not. Still might be the same. Let's see your proof. I want to see it! None? Thought so. gtfo.

/disguisted @ retire job comment.

I've always had better drop rates on r/ex with TH...

Eh, look at your average RDM's/etcs Solo loot pool for sky gods, You're going to likely sea a Seal, and a Wind, maybe a crystal if they don't bring a THF.

Don't bring a THF to Dynamis or Nyzul, you'll probably get lucky and see a few drops, of course, it is luck based too, But if you bring a THF in the long run you will see much more drops, at the very least a higher average drop rate.

TH Effects all drops, R/EX, Sell-ables, etc.

and seriously, if you wanna wave the "I WUNT PROOF" around, go parse the 10,000+ Kills yourself. TH has been a mystery to FFXI for a long time largely due to the unpredictableness of drop-rates requiring obscenely large sample sizes to get a base-line. But at least now we have concrete theories and hard tests that have given us basic understandings of the trait, and none of them suggest it only effects non-R/EX Armor/Items.

There is no absolute solid facts on TH, perhaps a few Sound theories, a few solid tests, though met with critiquing,There is no God-written rule of how much % Increase is Trait is. But!, There's enough evidence through basic means, personal stories, and hard tests that any person who bothers to read forums, research the appropriate TH Tests, and basically keep in touch with the community, that you can deduce TH At the very least effects all forms of Drops, R/EX and the non.

And for the sake of everyone else, If by chance you cannot bring yourself to believe this, At least go kill 100,000~+ Mobs that only drop R/ex items to have a good test before you decide to tell everyone it doesn't effect R/EX. It may seem like an opinion, or something innocent, but people believe really stupid things every day (Take a look at some MMM rumors...), and I don't wanna see another 400 threads on this forum about "TH NERFED DOESNT EFFECT R/EX" cause someone skimmed this thread and believes it as truth -.-;

Edit: Also not particularly targeting this at anyone, Just in general I'm a little tired of seeing people Eye-balling fights or killing 1 NM with "TH5+ proc" and not getting a drop declaring it doesn't work etc. TH is about improving your odds, not Gaurunteeing a drop, so are "!!" Weaknesses. They all improve your odds of obtaining a reward. Its best to have all possible things done. Do not prolong a fight for bonus TH, But do all you can while the mob is alive to get your best drop rate.

Also i'm sick of Eyeballed tests from people who probably couldn't run a parse waving it around like factual information. :(

THF90 is the cap right now, you get SA at 15 and TA at 30 so the cap shouldn't bother you at all. I think the cap will be raised to 99 by mid next year, but I could be wrong. If you are THF5 or THF9 then I'm sorry, but you do not have SA or TA yet.

It most definitely is possible to get higher than THF9. Has anyone done any tests proving this, to help back my theory? I don't want to look like I pulled something straight out of my *** like a lot of people here.

i've ran a couple tests, and to me it looks like you can, in fact, not get higher than THF9.

lol, ok i wont quote all the junk i just read here, and hey of course i see no parsing saying i am wrong. Conclusion?

Stop being a pansy, and just do dynamis without THF and tell me how many AF you get... I did it many time (not like it was a choice, no thf was present that night)

Oh ya i see you guy coming saying, you are THF main, so why no THF in your dynamis run or Sky run... huh.. bc i have 2 account, and was running 2 shell...

Seriously if you have no proof of anything, bc i am talking about my experience of 5yr, don't just come here saying spinning on your chair 5x increase TH.

As you said, all TEST BEEN made on NORMAL MOB THAT DROP GIL ITEM. So ya before telling me i'm wrong on my theory, just take it or leave, i think is simple, if i am wrong on my theory then post a prof on it, don't just come here saying my theory is wrong bc your theory 'without prof' is better...

umm, anyway... if you notice, the effect is always +1 better than your TH#, so that means 1 is base right? so the effect of 10 would be TH9. Right?

Let me explain a bit of what we do and don't know about TH. And what is and is not possible.


Yeah I was just saying that Defending Ring wasn't a perfect example because it's believed TH doesn't effect it, because of its slot-sharing behavior with pixie earring. There are some drop pools like this. Like O.Kote and the feet it can drop. It's something like 90% chance of feet, 10% chance of O.Kote, but you can't get both at the same time. What would TH do? Raise the drop rates of both? Well you can't get them both over 100% in this case. Perhaps raise the drop rate of the lower item with respect to the drop rate of the higher? We have no reason to believe it might do that, but then again our understanding of precisely how TH is acting in order to improve drops, is not understood.

SE has said themselves that r/ex gear is affected by TH. Pretty sure I added it to the wiki, and you can also find links to the commentaries on the talk page.

So yes, there are no tests to support that TH is acting on r/ex drops, but there don't need to be any due to this commentary.


It could be that currency is affected by TH more than AF. Am I spitting blasphemy? No. As an example, look at TH+1. Prior to this update, tested and shown to improve drop rates by 1%. Now take for example something with a 1% drop rate and something with a 10% drop rate. The 1% drop rate goes to 2%; effectively doubling the chances we get it. 10% goes to 11% and we'll see 10% more of that item. Most certainly, TH+1 affects(affected) certain items more than others.

TH's activation/deactivation logic is known. It's potency has been tested and we have good estimates for how much it's improving (certain) drops by. But we still don't know the method of action that it uses in order to produce the effect that we know it has. If drops work in some weird slot/roll based system as has long been a pondering, it is easier to imagine how TH might be more potent or less potent depending on the item.


Let's take another example. Suppose the slot/roll theory is true and we have 8 slots. Wyrmal Abjuration: Legs is rolled for on 2 of those slots. Kirin's Pole is rolled for on one of those slots. If, hypothetically, TH effected drops by offering one more roll for a particular item (but NOT one more roll for every slot), then Kirin's Pole would be more effected by TH than Crimson Cuisses. Prior to TH, Kirin's Pole would be rolled for once and Crimson Cuisses 2x. After TH, Kirin's Pole would be rolled for 2x (100% increased drop rate), and Crimson Cuisses would be rolled for 3x (50% increased drop rate).

Mind you, these are just examples of how, due to our ignorance of the system, /it is possible/, that TH Traits (TH1, TH2, TH3) are more or less potent depending on the item. We already knew that that was so for +1 equipment. So it could be possible that llax's anecdotal evidence is partly correct: that currency is more affected by TH than AF. But it would not be right to say that TH doesn't effect AF/rEX at all, because SE has already stated that it does.

I can't disagree with that bc yes i really remember SE in a fan fest like 2003~2004 saying TH was affecting 'ALL DROP', they never really said much about rare/ex but ya, all mean all i guess. Maybe TH affect rare/ex but is so tinny that i never really notice.

But who know, maybe they mean to say, TH affect rare and ex gear, and they did not mean to say it affect rare+ex status gear. Right there can be a confusion.

Of course i don't really have a parse to prove what i am saying outside dynamis i was doing without thf or sky, but more recently, i keep doing NM DAY LONG in abyssea, and sadly is again the same result :( I can kick TH7 or 9, is 0 seal to 1 seal drop.

Before anyone say is luck, i gonna put it another way, when i fight the PUK NM (Seps) i get Syrinx very often (enough often to fall to ground bc we all have one...), but for the seal is the same low damn rate (except if we actually trigger), if we fight him without any THF, then is like just imposible to obtain 'Syrinx' out of it.

We did couple dynamis lately, and AF drop like candy, and same for salvage, BUT SE ALSO SAID they increase drop rate on that >< kinda hard to think TH have any impact on it.

I dunno about caps or anything, but I've heard people getting TH11, I'm not sure how much TH they already had or anything, I've only been able to get +3/4 myself, on maybe a 15min fight?

The effect proc always starts at your TH+1 because the effect proc itself is adding +1. TH is applied on the first swing against a mob, regardless of if it procs the add effect or not.

The base TH level is 0. Hitting a mob or using a ranged attack will apply TH equal to your job traits + gear bonuses. Meleeing the mob has a chance to proc TH+1, once per attack round.

Example: On my 90 thf, I equip thief knife, assassin's armlets, and raider's poulaines +2 (Total TH6). I throw my boomerang at the mob, applying TH6. I then take off my thief knife, assassin's armlets, and poulaines, replacing them with my melee gear. If/when the melee attack procs the add effect, the TH level will increase to 7.

Another interesting tidbit I noticed last night: If I begin meleeing the mob in melee gear (TH3 only) and proc the add effect (increase to TH4), then switch to TH gear (TH6) and apply TH6 to the mob, the TH6 will overwrite the weaker TH4, meaning that the next add effect proc will increase it to TH7, not TH8 (The first add effect proc is lost). In short, it is always best to apply your highest TH at the beginning of a fight, so as the utilize all add effect procs that occur during the fight.

read Azulmagia's comment on Thief's Knife. I think that theory is correct.

Yes, that something i notice too, make me wonder now about multi THF, i assume you let the THF with TH6 trigger first, then the other thf can start attack the mob.

so was everyone else on the planet

ow god not the gay parse stick,put it away no one wins awards for that stuff they just recieve big EPEEN hardons for totaly strangers to drool @...

Also ronson is sick to *** death of people saying he cant xp in abbyssea with them till they have parsed him and made sure he is up to scratch.......ow wait that isnt a real situation is it because epeen parsing is for epeen wiki editors...

For me, parsing isn't about you lost and I won, it's to figure out how to get better. The real question is, did you beat yourself from last run?

If you don't parse, how would you know your getting better? Is your acc capped, what's your crit rate, how about your avg ws? Parsing makes it possible to calculate what will win in a given situation and brings a better understanding of game mechanics. Your issue is with the people who are parsing you, not with parsing.

But that has nothing to do with this conversation, this is about data, something that parsers happen to be good at...

It doesn't matter if it's parsed or hand tallied as far as drop rates go so long as you accurately log everything.

If someone comes and says "TH has no effect on this or this and we get the same amount of relic gear on runs with or without TH" then people call bull. If they posted 2 years worth of dynamis drop data logging when there was a thf and when there was not or how much TH they had in a graph or spreadsheet format and said "We got a 4.2% average increase in relic drop rates in xarc with TH over runs with no TH and a 1.1% increase with TH4 over TH3" then it might garner some attention. Even then, the data needs to be looked at with common sense. If you do one xarc run where you wipe the zone then, of course you are more likely to get more drops than one where you do a DL and kill fewer mobs. Parsers will tell you how many mobs you killed on the run and give a better indication of TH effectivness.

Data is worthless if you don't know the situation around it.

His theory is, in the face of what we know to this point, flat-out wrong.

TH+1 (an incremental addition from gear) has been long known to have been parsed at a ~+1% increase to base drop rate.
TH1/TH2 are traits that are as if multipliers on the base drop rate. Enedin's Testing (see wiki) shows our best estimates for the potency of TH1 and TH2 to be at *1.5x (50% more drops) for TH1, and *2.0x for compounded TH1+TH2 (100% more drops).

TH trait and +TH are two completely different things.
I sometimes fool myself into thinking that when people say "TH4" it's not that they're ignorant of the obvious, but just trying writing that because it types faster. But then people like Azulmagia come out blurting completely groundless information, falsely saying that it's "the most accepted theory", and then get rated up.

Unless they changed this with the recent update, it's incorrect. TH from traits and +1 from gear BOTH add 1 to the initial TH level on a mob, as is easily tested on any mob, by proccing the add effect TH and comparing it to your gear TH and trait TH.

I DO HAVE DATA of what i am talking about, you think i just toss stuff for the fun of it? http://Totalchaosls.com in EVENT section, that alway been PUBLIC to everyone also, we take down every drop every dynamis, i also have another 3yr of dynamis data, back in the time it was timelessls.com (domain name not anymore valid, but i still have the DATA) and i am telling you, TH keep increasing but not the number of AF drop. (outside the 2 update where SE increased the AF DROP itself.

Same apply for SKY that i was talking about, i still have all the DATA of all drop we got over 2yr.

OF COURSE I DON'T have data for SEA, Salvage, jar, HNM, but i am sure some in this forum have it and could talk about how THF not really affect RARE/EX, OR he gonna be another ... that will come here just to jump on my *** saying i am wrong with no prof again. Then fine, in that case they theory worth s..t as mine and is take it or leave.

edit: I also have over 6yr of logging, so would be sorta easy to just parse how many mob kill VS AF drop... So that would eliminate the zone wipe situation as you stated, but then someone would say: you can't prov if THF hit each mob, sooo... anyway the TOTAL average DROP still give a good view for now.

...

Edit #2: I forgot to say this, if all in the END, i am WRONG and the TH really affect the freaking $#@%T RARE/EX item BUT BY ONLY 1%, in a EVENT THAT DROP 20 AF MAX, don't need to be a genie to figure is 1 more god damn AF per 5 RUN, 12 more AF MAX per yr! AND BEFORE SAY THAT CAN BE 12 RDM HAT per YR, think TWICE, that would be in situation you only do Dyna-Xar yr long, and assume ONLY RDM AF drop.. stop dreaming.

As i already stated, TH DO AFFECT CURRENCY by TONS, and that is an item you can TRADE/SELL/Bazzar, so of course TH affect it.

HOW MUCH IT AFFECT CURRENCY????? Everyone that actualy DO DYNAMIS will tell you without any DOUBT, currency drop is almost triple form TH1 to TH5, same for Wootz Ore ect.

SO IF TH REALLY AFFECT AF (RARE/EX), THEN WHY WE ONLY SEE THE EFFECT ON CURRENCY (almost 3x more) AND NOT SAME EFFECT ON AF?

of course i am wrong... of course... So far the smartest comment i saw here was from Asura.Shamaya saying, MAYBE TH affect rare/ex differently then they affect ITEM GIL drop.

Probably because Currency has a much higher base drop rate, and most tests show TH has a impact on base drop rate, not a direct +1/2/3 number. I.E say TH increases drop rate by 50%, if Relic has a 2% Drop rate, it only increases it to 3%. (50% or 2 is 1, 1+2=3).

Where as say, Currency has around 25% Drop rate, and can drop up to 4, meaning with TH it'll increase to 37.5% which is a 12.5% increase instead of just +1% that relic gets from TH.

This is not exact numbers but i hope you might see my point.

Edit: I.E: Common things will become more common and TH will have a much higher impact on them, while less common things will have a lesser impact, but the impact itself is still there.

Edit2: also thank you Sekundes for understanding what i was trying to say.
Edit3: Wait did Ronson just refer to himself in the third person?
Edit4:I think i just repeated pretty much what Shamaya said. in a shorter way...