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Why is it so difficult to criticize Islam without angrying it deeply?
By Trebold 2010-05-04 08:24:37
Shiiroh said: 18 pages? seriously?
People can't stfu already?
Nice, the very same attitude which got us to question why Muslims are like this. "No criticism about my religion! Period!" I've read the word "ignorant" many many times in the Qu'ran, I wonder exactly how many times it's used. Seems like it doles out a lot of judgments to believers as well as non-believers.
Keiya said:
There will always be a forcing veils as long as a lot of scholars see it as a must, by veils I mean the face veils not hijab the head one , the head veils are must 100%.
In my country most women who do put face veils they put it after getting married , it started to become more than cultural matter than religion. But if you look to Saudi arabia for example most women if not all puts face veils.
Anyway married men tend to tell or force their wives to wear Niqab (the one that shows two eyes only) Since they don't want anyone to see their faces.
If the head veil is not worn in your country, what is the result? Imprisonment? Fine? Or just some dirty looks from the neighbors? How about if you show up to a mosque and continue not to wear your hijab?
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By Ifrit.Kungfuhustle 2010-05-04 08:35:55
you guys and your worthless religious views. Don't you all understand that this is a thread about cats...
[+]
By Keiya 2010-05-04 08:40:19
Trebold:
Imprisonment? Not even a chance. After all she's responsible about her action no one will harm her (maybe her family does tho depends on what type of family she have)
dirty look? Sure! but only for gulf people , if the girl arabian (not from middle east but other countries) they would get less dirty look wonder why.
About showing to mosque well most women here in my country don't go to mosque since they can pray at house so I really have no idea about this :)
By Trebold 2010-05-04 08:42:38
Asura.Jetzabel said: Trebold, may I ask what your standpoint is? Are you religious etc.? I'm still not very sure even after the last topic ><
Actually, the fact whether I am religious, non-religious, Muslim, now non-Muslim, would have nothing to do with debate. All that is needed is some understanding about a subject, in order to ask a question, otherwise how could you ask about something you had no understanding of. It's like me asking you about a planet that may or may not exist outside of our solar system, asking if you think they have a new element called 'Traniox' there. But on something that you can understand, imagine if school teachers for 8-year-old children would deter talking about math simply because the child didn't know the insides and outs of it.
By Trebold 2010-05-04 08:50:24
Keiya said: Trebold:
Imprisonment? Not even a chance. After all she's responsible about her action no one will harm her (maybe her family does tho depends on what type of family she have)
dirty look? Sure! but only for gulf people , if the girl arabian (not from middle east but other countries) they would get less dirty look wonder why.
About showing to mosque well most women here in my country don't go to mosque since they can pray at house so I really have no idea about this :)
And Kuwait has a very innocuous law, as you've said before, right?
I'm guessing the reason the people from outside the Middle East would get less dirty looks is because "they don't know better", whereas they expect the Arabian girl to already have these kinds of morals. It's the same thing observed of visitors to Japan, while a Japanese person would be expected to take their shoes off in people's homes, outsiders may or may not know these cultural boundaries.
By Trebold 2010-05-04 09:00:04
Asura.Jetzabel said: Trebold said: Asura.Jetzabel said: Trebold, may I ask what your standpoint is? Are you religious etc.? I'm still not very sure even after the last topic ><
Actually, the fact whether I am religious, non-religious, Muslim, now non-Muslim, would have nothing to do with debate. All that is needed is some understanding about a subject, in order to ask a question, otherwise how could you ask about something you had no understanding of. It's like me asking you about a planet that may or may not exist outside of our solar system, asking if you think they have a new element called 'Traniox' there. But on something that you can understand, imagine if school teachers for 8-year-old children would deter talking about math simply because the child didn't know the insides and outs of it.
Um...
I have no idea what your position is in these topics though - how is it possible to 'debate' with someone if you do not know their position? I asked because when I read your posts, I've not been able to determine what your purpose in the topics is.
Edit: In other words, do you agree with the OP? Do you think Islamic people are all offended deeply and easily? If so do you think that is wrong? Etc.
All I have seen from your posts is general information/pointing to or quoting scripture/bouncing from one side to another.
What's the purpose of any discussion forum other than to educate oneself and others? If I completely agree with one thing or another, then I'm just being closed-minded. I don't really believe that you can label the human mind as "one thing". To be blunt, to group me into a generalization would be putting me into a box and locking me away in your mind. But the people who do group themselves AS something, they are expected to be compared with their peers. Which in a way, is kind of what we're talking about here. "If you consider yourself among other Muslims, than why have you learned something from Islam that is so radically different than what some others have learned?"
People will answer, "Well, I believe.. this and this", and his neighbor will answer, "No, it's like this". So really, being a Muslim doesn't even define a person at all. You would need millions of definitions for Muslims or Christians or Jews or Hindus or Shinto-practitioners or Wiccans or Buddhists. But in the whole scheme of things, we're all human.
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 09:05:17
Cerberus.Katarzyna said: Phoenix.Darki said: wurd.
I'm atheist and i dont look down on others beliefs, but i do look down on those that try to impose them and make up arguments with me as if trying to proove my own wrong. anyways a good religious mature debate is always nice, as long as both parties respect.
I missed the part where someone is forcing you to become Muslim, because you sure are doing a lot of mud flinging towards a religion you're not even a part of. But since atheism is "easier to follow anyways," I wouldn't expect a mature decision on religion to come from you anyway.
PS: "pwned"
Quote: I just don't get why a religion should be given a special status.
I don't get why you think you're so special because you're an atheist.
The world may never know....
lol dude you just /raged at me for no reason at all.
I wasnt pointing a finger at anyone that was forcing me into THAT religion to start with, I was giving an example. chillax, dont be so aggressive :P otherwise people wont take your argument seriously.
By Trebold 2010-05-04 09:16:38
Asura.Jetzabel said: Trebold said: Asura.Jetzabel said: Trebold said: Asura.Jetzabel said: Trebold, may I ask what your standpoint is? Are you religious etc.? I'm still not very sure even after the last topic ><
Actually, the fact whether I am religious, non-religious, Muslim, now non-Muslim, would have nothing to do with debate. All that is needed is some understanding about a subject, in order to ask a question, otherwise how could you ask about something you had no understanding of. It's like me asking you about a planet that may or may not exist outside of our solar system, asking if you think they have a new element called 'Traniox' there. But on something that you can understand, imagine if school teachers for 8-year-old children would deter talking about math simply because the child didn't know the insides and outs of it.
Um...
I have no idea what your position is in these topics though - how is it possible to 'debate' with someone if you do not know their position? I asked because when I read your posts, I've not been able to determine what your purpose in the topics is.
Edit: In other words, do you agree with the OP? Do you think Islamic people are all offended deeply and easily? If so do you think that is wrong? Etc.
All I have seen from your posts is general information/pointing to or quoting scripture/bouncing from one side to another.
What's the purpose of any discussion forum other than to educate oneself and others? If I completely agree with one thing or another, then I'm just being closed-minded. I don't really believe that you can label the human mind as "one thing". To be blunt, to group me into a generalization would be putting me into a box and locking me away in your mind. But the people who do group themselves AS something, they are expected to be compared with their peers. Which in a way, is kind of what we're talking about here. "If you consider yourself among other Muslims, than why have you learned something from Islam that is so radically different than what some others have learned?"
People will answer, "Well, I believe.. this and this", and his neighbor will answer, "No, it's like this". So really, being a Muslim doesn't even define a person at all. You would need millions of definitions for Muslims or Christians or Jews or Hindus or Shinto-practitioners or Wiccans or Buddhists. But in the whole scheme of things, we're all human.
Clearly you are missing the point of my question.
Additionally, I find your last comment rather hypocritical. In the previous topic I used that line of thought (we are all human) more than a few times, including after I sarcastically remarked at the prospect of another un-winnable debate over christians versus muslims, to which you told me I was just trolling.
You call this a debate, yet you claim to have no side and it would be wrong for me to ask what your viewpoint is. So now I ask again, why are you in the topic if not to debate some kind of viewpoint? I have not labelled myself to any single group, I am me and I am individual - but there is no such thing as being completely neutral. I want to know what your overall aim in posting is. Most people won't even read all your posts, if at all - so the education thing is a moot point.
It's not wrong of you to ask at all. You're more than welcome to ask me, even if it be fifty times a day. :) It doesn't affect the fact that I'm going to remain open-minded about subjects. Whether people read my posts is there prerogative as well, I never forced anyone to believe me, and though some may beg to differ: no one else has a right to force beliefs on others either.
I have not labeled myself to any single group, I am me and I am individual, I am not completely neutral, but as you've said my stance is a moot point. ;)
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 09:16:49
Ifrit.Kungfuhustle said: you guys and your worthless religious views. Don't you all understand that this is a thread about cats...
lulz.
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 09:24:56
Asura.Jetzabel said: Trebold said: but as you've said my stance is a moot point. ;)
Taking that out of context! /poke
From how I understand it, there are two people in these topics that matter. People who get involved but are very narrow in thinking and can't be swayed, and people who discuss things to learn and understand/discuss the reasons behind something.
It seems like you are the latter. But it is hard to participate fully with you without knowing a little more about you or how you feel about things. Does that not make sense? Right now you seem like nothing more than a collector/teller of knowledge, and person who adds more issues in for other people to discuss and you observe.
you really sound like you lost your patience ~.~
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 09:33:32
Asura.Jetzabel said: Phoenix.Darki said: Asura.Jetzabel said: Trebold said: but as you've said my stance is a moot point. ;)
Taking that out of context! /poke
From how I understand it, there are two people in these topics that matter. People who get involved but are very narrow in thinking and can't be swayed, and people who discuss things to learn and understand/discuss the reasons behind something.
It seems like you are the latter. But it is hard to participate fully with you without knowing a little more about you or how you feel about things. Does that not make sense? Right now you seem like nothing more than a collector/teller of knowledge, and person who adds more issues in for other people to discuss and you observe.
you really sound like you lost your patience ~.~
How so? lol Is this a case of "Why is it so difficult to ask something seriously without someone accusing you of being angry?" =p
whut?
By Trebold 2010-05-04 09:34:06
Asura.Jetzabel said: Trebold said: but as you've said my stance is a moot point. ;)
Taking that out of context! /poke
From how I understand it, there are two people in these topics that matter. People who get involved but are very narrow in thinking and can't be swayed, and people who discuss things to learn and understand/discuss the reasons behind something.
It seems like you are the latter. But it is hard to participate fully with you without knowing a little more about you or how you feel about things. Does that not make sense? Right now you seem like nothing more than a collector/teller of knowledge, and a person who adds more issues in for other people to discuss and you observe.
Wow, that's actually a very good description of me. I'd say it was learned as a child, being the youngest of my family with two older sisters. I got away without having to talk much, but rather watch how things played out. When I got older, I'd contribute enough to get the ball rolling in conversation, but still reverting back to being an observer rather than a participant. I know that is just me talking about myself, but I felt like you might like to hear me say that you're right about that.
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 09:36:54
Ifrit.Kungfuhustle said: you guys and your worthless religious views. Don't you all understand that this is a thread about cats...
this thread is about cats.
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-04 09:44:19
stupid Quotes not working. Men are financially responsible in the house. He is in charge in paying all the bills and making some of the decision but the wife also has a word in it. Girls can leave their husband if he is abusive. Again, abusive husband are either the regular *** like we have in the West or someone that follows cultural practices, the religion just gives the husband "leader(finance/decision)" in the home but if one day the wife decides she does not like your choices she can leave. People might think that undermines girls rights but it actually makes life easy and forces a guy not to be a hobo and force his wife to pay for everything.... and divorce does exist so there
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 09:53:27
Ramuh.Thunderz said: stupid Quotes not working. Men are financially responsible in the house. He is in charge in paying all the bills and making some of the decision but the wife also has a word in it. Girls can leave their husband if he is abusive. Again, abusive husband are either the regular *** like we have in the West or someone that follows cultural practices, the religion just gives the husband "leader(finance/decision)" in the home but if one day the wife decides she does not like your choices she can leave. People might think that undermines girls rights but it actually makes life easy and forces a guy not to be a hobo and force his wife to pay for everything.... and divorce does exist so there
rawr you from that culture i guess?
I like that, do the women get accepted back into their own families even after they leave their husbands for those kind of reasons?
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-04 09:57:18
Phoenix.Darki said: Ramuh.Thunderz said: stupid Quotes not working. Men are financially responsible in the house. He is in charge in paying all the bills and making some of the decision but the wife also has a word in it. Girls can leave their husband if he is abusive. Again, abusive husband are either the regular *** like we have in the West or someone that follows cultural practices, the religion just gives the husband "leader(finance/decision)" in the home but if one day the wife decides she does not like your choices she can leave. People might think that undermines girls rights but it actually makes life easy and forces a guy not to be a hobo and force his wife to pay for everything.... and divorce does exist so there
rawr you from that culture i guess?
I like that, do the women get accepted back into their own families even after they leave their husbands for those kind of reasons?
Yes and if the family refuses to accept her back they are in the wrong and are thinking of Cultural BS or thinking of their "Honor" Cultural practices in country blending in religion is really a on-going problem. Also I don't follow Culture only word-4-word the book
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By Ramuh.Haseyo 2010-05-04 09:59:47
I feel like this debate isn't even worth trolling.
Wait...
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-04 10:01:12
Ramuh.Haseyo said: I feel like this debate isn't even worth trolling.
Wait...
you follow the religion of pokemon
and pikachu created the clouds and lightning
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By Ramuh.Haseyo 2010-05-04 10:02:04
Ramuh.Thunderz said: Ramuh.Haseyo said: I feel like this debate isn't even worth trolling.
Wait...
you follow the religion of pokemon
and pikachu created the clouds and lightning
I bet it wouldn't create a 19 page debate either!
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-04 10:02:27
no it would have exploded into a pokemon battle
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 10:02:33
Asura.Jetzabel said: Phoenix.Darki said: you really sound like you lost your patience ~.~ Asura.Jetzabel said: How so? lol Is this a case of "Why is it so difficult to ask something seriously without someone accusing you of being angry?" =p
Still not making sense? lol
not really.
Ramuh.Thunderz said: Phoenix.Darki said: Ramuh.Thunderz said: stupid Quotes not working. Men are financially responsible in the house. He is in charge in paying all the bills and making some of the decision but the wife also has a word in it. Girls can leave their husband if he is abusive. Again, abusive husband are either the regular *** like we have in the West or someone that follows cultural practices, the religion just gives the husband "leader(finance/decision)" in the home but if one day the wife decides she does not like your choices she can leave. People might think that undermines girls rights but it actually makes life easy and forces a guy not to be a hobo and force his wife to pay for everything.... and divorce does exist so there
rawr you from that culture i guess?
I like that, do the women get accepted back into their own families even after they leave their husbands for those kind of reasons?
Yes and if the family refuses to accept her back they are in the wrong and are thinking of Cultural BS or thinking of their "Honor" Cultural practices in country blending in religion is really a on-going problem. Also I don't follow Culture only word-4-word the book
I see. You guys have a very unique culture, It must be strict living under it but also surrounded by all that beauty you guys surround yourselves. I really do appreciate it from an outside point of view.
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-04 10:08:06
replace culture with religion its getting me confused >.>
I don't follow My country's Culture. I only follow the words of the Qu'ran (and its hadith)
There multiple cultures in different country's or different tribes. Each having their own though on how they lead their life but some of those people are Muslim and they also integrate culture practices in the religion and that cause a lot of misconception about the religion.
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 10:09:28
Ramuh.Thunderz said: replace culture with religion its getting me confused >.>
I don't follow My country's Culture. I only follow the words of the Qu'ran (and its hadith)
There multiple cultures in different country's or different tribes. Each having their own though on how they lead their life but some of those people are Muslim and they also integrate culture practices in the religion and that cause a lot of misconception about the religion.
I've always thought religion comes with culture vice/versa, but I wouldnt know over-there, I don't know much about your religion other than some details, about your artistic cultural aspects I do know alot.
I think I figured out how it is possible that the large majority of people from the Muslim world would be so profoundly offended when their Prophet is criticized or made fun of. I mean, to them, it could very well look obvious, yet it seems they do not really understand why either. A lot of them just accept that someone would be killed for depicting the prophet Mohamed, even though we ask them why, in a way that we feel cannot be argued with. How is it possible that someone would be hated for openly making fun of something as mundane as religion, we ask? I think I can reasonably explain why they would accept the idea, believe it or not. I want to know what is to be done if we're going to help these people stop feeling so persecuted and if we’re going to finally gain the right to criticize Islam, as it should be, without threatening the people in it. The answer, I think, lies in our perceptions of what religion is versus where it should stand in relations to ethnicity. Help me out.
First, it is difficult to argue against the idea that Islam, to this day, is majorly against the advancement of secular culture. It is associated so directly to what I would refer, for lack of a better word, Arabian culture, that criticizing a religion tied so closely with it, appears (at least from my personal experience) to insult them, as people. Another factor to consider is how Muslims, despite their divisions, have the strength in numbers to lead us into being cautious about criticizing Islamic beliefs, even if it shouldn’t be so. Any critic, whether it is well intentioned or backed with incredibly solid and logical arguments, seems to backfire when it is targeted at Islam. More than often, it seems to be giving more reasons to feel justified, leading Islamic countries to cocoon themselves from modern secular culture. Unlike other ethnicities that are also extremely tied to their religion; the Jews, for example, the fact that they’re over a billion, somewhat gives them the mental ability to feel universally justified. It’s as if any strong criticism of Islam was a threat to their identity, integrity and intelligence, even when it’s not...
In a secular view, insulting religion doesn't necessarily equate to racial discrimination, and the fact that our western culture systematically ignores this, is the key point that prevents the western world from understanding why Muslims would be so offended. I have come to realize that a lot of Muslims try to say it, but it seems they do not understand what I am writing here, at least not enough to put it into the proper words that would make us understand. My goal is to help us both come to understand, through careful yet fortunate observations which I feel have led me to grasp some of this intricate psychology.
Let’s think for a second about this analogy: Let’s compare some white guy shouting racist comments towards blacks to your average non-Christian openly criticizing Christianity. Which is the worst, in the eyes of the average American, or European? Racism, isn’t it? Racism is undoubtedly the worst of those two things, at least according to our modern secular values. This is not to say that racism has been eradicated from the Western world, far from it. But even for the most racist among us in North America, it is extremely discouraged to make a racist statement publicly. It is not viewed as acceptable at all.
Have you ever seen a single Arabic person and expect him not to be a Muslim? It's as if their religion has so much grasp that it's nearly impossible for an Arabic person to not be a Muslim. But why doesn’t anyone seem to question this fact? Isn’t it fishy, considering that religion should be a choice? In fact, Muslims, in Muslim countries, are taught, from childhood, that the punishment for apostasy is death. The indoctrination is done to them so early in their life, and in such a strong and unquestionable way, that it achieves terrific results; it is almost irreversible. To them this is a good thing; to us, it’s just wrong.
In my opinion, the fact that Islam, as a religion, has been able to keep such a strong grasp, to this day, on the lives of the almost entirety of Arabic cultures is leading the Islamic world to a dangerous path. We all know that not only religion can be used to control masses, ii can also be a dangerous weapon. In America, some will argue, television is used for mass propaganda and it is difficult for the majority to avoid being brainwashed by many ideas that they would otherwise have never acquired as individuals. However, an average occidental still gets to make SOME choices about what morality should be; they chose whether they’ll be for or against abortion, whether they’ll be against slavery or not, whether they’ll vote for a black man or not.
It is possible to speak with a Muslim about what we dislike in Islam, without him getting angry. I have experienced it myself. It is difficult, however. Even as I was able to converse, I would feel the incredible pain that questioning one’s own identity can inflict on an indoctrinated individual. As we cannot tolerate being racially discriminated, they cannot tolerate negative criticism of Islam; they view is as their culture.
It may be sad to say, for most of us who wish for world peace, but secularism is not going to happen anytime soon in the Arab world. It could never be forced on Muslims. It is completely against their conception of what a religion should be and what place it should have in their life. Through what I have just explained, we can even understand the bottomless frustration of Muslims against non-Muslims when faced with debates like whether or not we should be banning the Burka in public spaces. The same issue arises: to us, it’s common sense and required for secularism, to them it’s a slap in the face, not as a Muslim but as an Arab. To us, it's freedom of speech; to them, it's against it. It is an insult to their culture, just as we would react to someone trying to deny our right to have a cultural background, just as we would react to a Muslim telling a White woman that wearing g-strings is degrading and wrong.
How can we possibly achieve a secular society, with Muslims living in it, if we do not agree on whether it’s okay to force someone to act secularly? Aren’t we stuck with the problem of having many kids arguing about who gets to play with the ball, while one of the kids sits on the ball, arguing that it should not be played with in the first place? How flexible can secularism be, without ending up betraying itself?
Can we find a temporary solution? I would like your opinion.
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