Why Is It So Difficult To Criticize Islam Without Angrying It Deeply?

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2010-09-08
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Why is it so difficult to criticize Islam without angrying it deeply?
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 Fairy.Maimed
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By Fairy.Maimed 2010-05-05 13:52:00
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Korpg, I think you're a douche, you think I'm a douche. Simply put, it's just nerd rage x2 and quite frankly I'm done with it because us bickering has nothing positive to contribute to this thread.

With that being said, I'd like to put in my two cents worth after doing some catch-up:

Religion does not change. It's simply text on a document considered to be sacred. However, religion tends to be a leading factor in shaping culture.

The issue today is most people associate Islam with the cultures that blatantly stand out (Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc) and it's hard to avoid doing so when the two seem so intertwined.

However, the assumption that all muslims live their lives according to what has been portrayed in the forum posts is like saying people who live in Vatican City are a good representation of all Catholics around the world.

Keep in mind that in a world of over 1 billion muslims, you are judging your opinions off of a small population in comparison to the rest of the world. It's like saying all gay people around the world behave exactly like those that live in San Francisco, because it's the most obvious geographic locale we can associate with open homosexuality.

---

Anyway, I want to touch on a post I saw about low divorce rates in "muslim" households. Middle eastern culture (and eastern culture overall) is very different than western culture. Family isn't the inconvenience you have to deal with a couple of times a year around the holidays. I know this may not be the case with all of you out there but think really hard about it. If this doesn't apply to you, I'm sure you know at least a few people whom it does.

I'm sure some of you have heard the saying "marry into the family" and that rings true. A woman doesn't simply marry a man, and vica versa. It truly is a combination of families. This is a blessing in the sense that (now I will combine the two) muslim/middle eastern families tend to have greater support systems than most traditional western households. However, if the relationship between husband and wife goes sour for any reason (ie abusive, disinterest, etc) it is harder to seperate oneself because you've already intertwined both families together. So even though the divorce rate is relatively low, I wouldn't say it's an accurate representation of someone's true happiness. My opinion leads me to believe those marriages lean more towards the outer extremities of being happy in the relationship or completely unhappy. You've either embraced the idea of having a village as part of your new family or you hate it and don't know how to get out.

Sorry for wall of text but I felt it was important enough to put everything that was on my mind down. Hopefully this will help enlighten some of you.
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 Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-05 13:58:37
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I am boss, let the thread die.
 Fairy.Maimed
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By Fairy.Maimed 2010-05-05 14:01:41
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If you tire of the thread, don't bother following up on it. Some of us actually care enough to continue the conversation.
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 Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-05 14:03:48
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Fairy.Maimed said:
If you tire of the thread, don't bother following up on it. Some of us actually care enough to continue the conversation.

It's a troll thread anyway. Psyence seems to do that with religious posts.
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By 2010-05-05 14:19:27
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 Ragnarok.Psyence
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By Ragnarok.Psyence 2010-05-11 17:48:32
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Asura.Jetzabel said:
I enjoy debating things, but only with people who are in the debate for the right reasons.

I feel like it is a little worthless if you don't.
Someone like him only needs to listen to many different opinions in order to make up his own. Some people like me need to state what they think aloud and hear/read how others criticize their opinion. Some other (perhaps you) will attack opinions and learn something from the way people defend their stance. To each his method and perhaps the best would be to practice each, since each can bring different results. None of these methods are narrow-minded. Unless you've never asked a single honest question to anyone different from you, you're not that narrow-minded.

Basically... You had a hard time understanding why he doesn't have a single-minded opinion that you can either attack or agree with. And you call me narrow minded because I have an opinion that radically differs from yours and dare to defend it. That sums my perception of what you think a debate should be. My perception is just a perception.

Sure, the subject of the thread is somewhat provocative and some of what I say is clearly stating my anti-religious views. I've noticed that the only way to get replies about these subjects and know what people really think, is to be slightly provocative. Even though I'm against the concept of organized religions doesn't mean I despise the people in them. I was born in a religion, it's not like I hate my parents or childhood friends.

I believe that being wrong or lacking information is not necessarily an excuse to avoid giving an opinion on a subject. For example, I know very little about Islam, but I do know that when I talk about it personally, people more than often get emotional. After a while, I tried to understand why, because to me, it was just weird. I made a hypothesis and wrote my own "narrow-minded" perspective of it. I am convinced that an open-minded Muslim would perhaps smile reading it because my opinion is biased and completely different from his own biased view of Islam. But that's okay, no one is trying to kill anyone. Yes?

The only way to avoid being biased about a subject is act like Trebold did in these previous posts. It's useful to have people like him fueling a conversation, and also it's a great way for him to avoid the prejudice that people like you automatically develop towards people like me. A example of what he's doing that bothers you is how a gay person could omit that he's gay when talking about AIDS to an audience of high-school students, knowing that they'll put a label on him and tend to discredit his message otherwise. I think he's trying to avoid influencing your answers, you can learn to adapt by replying differently.
 Ragnarok.Psyence
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By Ragnarok.Psyence 2010-05-11 18:27:20
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Okay, done reading all the useful posts. Thanks for taking this seriously.

@Maimed

It's a good point you brought about how the families are tighly brought together in your culture, it has good sides, but if a couple wants to divorce it can really create ***, I can only imagine. Still, not so much of a bad thing, because having strong bonds with people has its uses. It seems to me like the guys who thought about encouraging this in your religion were quite clever because it helps your religion stay strong and makes it hard to leave (if you can't leave the wife, imagine the religion lol).

It's hard not to follow when you're surrounded by people who do and I really like being able to decide whom I want to have relationships with. I do not think just because me and someone else have the same blood, we should always give priority, because family is well, it not all that significant when you think about it. I love my sister and parents, but if I meet a cousin I've never spoke to, it's not like there would be a magical symbiosis making us enjoy each others company. Same goes for culture, I smile each time I see 5 people having fun together, and they're from 5 different origins. These social bonds are created by the strength of will. Respect is deserved, even from family members. At least, that's how I feel about it. I've seen people putting religion before their family, especially in secluded cults, children leaving and their parents cutting bonds. Talk to someone who managed to leave Mormonism, you'll be outraged.

@Mabrook

As usual, you know how to keep your cool and that's something I like about you. You know, I met this 30something year old man Ahmed once, and he had an extremely high IQ, he was just that brilliant and we talked about so many different subjects. What was incredible is that I was able to talk to him openly about whatever I thought of religion (it was a while ago, I think I still kind of believed in some form of god back then) or any political subject, science, whatever. He drank, didn't smoke, practiced Ramadan but didn't really take it too seriously (he would skip parts when it bothered him, and he wouldn't feel guilty, just would admit he didn't think it was THAT important). This is the kind of man I wish your Prophet was described as in the Qu'ran, but who am I to change your culture right ^^; Seriously, this guy I met was a great role model and thanks to him, I have hope that one day even a very "controlling" religion can have less power over people's mind as they evolve. He didn't take Islam TOO seriously, but he did respect it in a way similar to how I see things; just as you do, he was able to use his logic to decide what parts of the holy book didn't make sense to his secular values. I think I should write to him, it's been over 5 years.... Damn FF11 xD
 
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By 2010-05-11 18:28:22
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 Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-11 19:05:29
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Titan.Tails said:
Angrying
 Ragnarok.Vitaru
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By Ragnarok.Vitaru 2010-05-15 09:39:49
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Well after reading 21 pages in this topic, around 2 people including me who are Muslims replied in this topic, which kinda give the idea that this title "Why is it so difficult to criticize Islam without angrying it deeply?" is wrong.

To explain more, majority of us are reading this topic and aren't angry or even give a ***.
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 Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-15 12:48:25
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Phoenix.Kojo said:
Fairy.Maimed said:
If you tire of the thread, don't bother following up on it. Some of us actually care enough to continue the conversation.

It's a troll thread anyway. Psyence seems to do that with religious posts.


if you *** with Kojo...
Your *** with the best!
 
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By 2010-05-15 13:49:46
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 Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-15 13:53:14
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Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Phoenix.Darki said:
Phoenix.Kojo said:
Fairy.Maimed said:
If you tire of the thread, don't bother following up on it. Some of us actually care enough to continue the conversation.

It's a troll thread anyway. Psyence seems to do that with religious posts.


if you *** with Kojo...
Your *** with the best!
For you:

Then:

lol.

lol you know i was hoping i'd go through my life with out seeing one of those devices...shame on you!
 
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 Midgardsormr.Frobeus
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2010-05-15 15:12:22
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/em practices his troll.
 
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By 2010-05-15 15:39:19
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By Trebold 2010-05-15 15:44:04
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Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Midgardsormr.Frobeus said:

/em practices his troll.
That lady is such a horrible speaker... I wish I were there, only thing I'd say when he said that would be: "Why would I condemn any person be it good or bad? Who am I or you to judge anyone to death or outside of societies culture?"

Plus the Hilter youth program is a very very bad name >_> But ya she deserved to be shut down by him lol.

The word "condemn" doesn't have anything to do with death. You must be mistaken because of its constant use in the phrase: "condemn to death". If condemn itself had something to do with death, then that phrase would be redundant.
 
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By 2010-05-15 15:51:21
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By Trebold 2010-05-15 15:59:47
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Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Trebold said:
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Midgardsormr.Frobeus said:

/em practices his troll.
That lady is such a horrible speaker... I wish I were there, only thing I'd say when he said that would be: "Why would I condemn any person be it good or bad? Who am I or you to judge anyone to death or outside of societies culture?"

Plus the Hilter youth program is a very very bad name >_> But ya she deserved to be shut down by him lol.

The word "condemn" doesn't have anything to do with death. You must be mistaken because of its constant use in the phrase: "condemn to death". If condemn itself had something to do with death, then that phrase would be redundant.
Bolded for easier reading. Condemn can be used in many different types of ways like you said, "condemn to death", or like I said, outside of societies cultures.

Why would you give him enough rope for him to hang yourself with though? He'd just retort: "I'm not condemning them to death, I'm in support of human rights. While Hamas is clearly attacking the rights of Jews and Christians, I myself respect their rights to live."

What do you mean "outside of societies culture" btw? Ostracize them? He just wants you to admit that Hamas' actions are morally wrong. You either agree with that or disagree.
 
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By 2010-05-15 16:05:11
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 Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-15 16:06:35
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Trebold said:
He just wants you to admit that Hamas' actions are morally wrong. You either agree with that or disagree.


You can also be indifferent.
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By Trebold 2010-05-15 16:10:38
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Phoenix.Kojo said:
Trebold said:
He just wants you to admit that Hamas' actions are morally wrong. You either agree with that or disagree.


You can also be indifferent.

She wouldn't ask the speaker a question if she were indifferent to the matter. Good try though, you almost made it.
 
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By 2010-05-15 16:11:47
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By Trebold 2010-05-15 16:21:06
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Pandemonium.Spicyryan said:
Because those people who are offended when you criticize islam are ***!

Say one line. Win argument.

 
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By 2010-05-15 16:26:19
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 Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-15 19:13:30
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Trebold said:
Phoenix.Kojo said:
Trebold said:
He just wants you to admit that Hamas' actions are morally wrong. You either agree with that or disagree.
You can also be indifferent.
She wouldn't ask the speaker a question if she were indifferent to the matter. Good try though, you almost made it.

Oh, really? Here's a question; Are you Muslim?


(I don't care.)
 Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-15 19:29:52
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Phoenix.Kojo said:
Trebold said:
Phoenix.Kojo said:
Trebold said:
He just wants you to admit that Hamas' actions are morally wrong. You either agree with that or disagree.
You can also be indifferent.
She wouldn't ask the speaker a question if she were indifferent to the matter. Good try though, you almost made it.

Oh, really? Here's a question; Are you Muslim?


(I don't care.)


haha, no really.
He doesn't care, so he made it.
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-15 19:31:18
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Phoenix.Darki said:
Phoenix.Kojo said:
Trebold said:
Phoenix.Kojo said:
Trebold said:
He just wants you to admit that Hamas' actions are morally wrong. You either agree with that or disagree.
You can also be indifferent.
She wouldn't ask the speaker a question if she were indifferent to the matter. Good try though, you almost made it.
Oh, really? Here's a question; Are you Muslim? (I don't care.)
haha, no really. He doesn't care, so he made it.

Uh, wut?
 
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By 2010-05-15 19:40:50
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