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Why is it so difficult to criticize Islam without angrying it deeply?
By Keiya 2010-05-03 22:27:27
Phoenix.Darki said: I have a question, right now I'm actually watching a series about arabic culture and what not... they just said something about the celebration of the virgin, when a woman marries and she has sex with her husband and the sheets are stained, she is worthy of being his wife, but i dont understand something though, how is that possible? its prooven today that not every woman bleeds on her first time, hymens can break beforehand, when I had my first time I didn't bleed.
so how does that work? though just asking, im not questioning and I expect a mature answer, thankyou.
I missed this part on how it actually can be done , first time he gets alone with her , he checks if she's virgin or not by trying to break her hymen (finger or his thing) then he looks to see if there are some blood or not.
If she bleed then he continue ..
if she didn't , well that depends if he have enough knowledge he will understand that bleeding isn't prove , if he doesn't have that knowledge he will tell her to go home to her father and mother lol probably divorce.
My friend got married few years ago. She was afraid that she lost her hymen back in school because she played a sport and happen to fall and bleed from there .. she told her husband (or rather the man whose going to be her husband) about this. He didn't believe her and told her "we will see". After wedding ceremony they went to hotel/ closed door/tried to break her hymen (yes yes no preparation @ all ) , guess what she actually bleed and he cried (seriously) then he told her : Don't blame me a lot of guys do the same!
I also heard of another girl who didn't bleed , the guy got angry took her to her family and told them , they took her to doctor then they figured out that she doesn't have hymen from the very beginning. Of course the guy tried to get her back but she said "my pride as woman won't allow me to go back to him" or something like that.
Ragnarok.Psyence
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By Ragnarok.Psyence 2010-05-03 22:27:33
While I was raised in a religious environment, I was always under the impression that somehow, if I really studied hard, I would be able to find evidence for the beliefs I was being asked to accept. I kept being told it was okay to question stuff, but whenever I did... the answer would be "question, but not too much" ... I'm not afraid of mistakes anymore, if I'm wrong, someone will correct me and life will go on. Because of my background, perhaps I'm a bit zealous in trying to make people see the problems within their perfect religion. But I'm not asking anyone to believe me based on assumptions. If you listen and it makes sense to you, improve it. Knowledge isn't better because it's older, ideas are meant to be improved. Now... if you want to improve religion, be my guest... would be nice for a change.
Sorry if what some of what I say looks pretentious. I'm just a guy on the Internet typing stuff that bothers you SO MUCH that you actually have to reply something to it. But if you're going to say I'm wrong, at least try to reply sentences that help me understand you. Yes? Not like:
Non-religious : How do you prove that God exists?
Religious: Atheists are just like a religion. They believe in non-belief.
Non-religious : Can you answer my question?
Religious: You can't prove that God doesn't exist.
Atheist: Do you at least have "some" evidence?
Religious : Oh you're so rude, talking about my religion, you know... I think I'll just go away.
This is pretty much the only kind of comments I've seen from Muslims so far and and it's quite disappointing. Where's the debate? If it's supposed to be the ultimate truth isn't it supposed to be super easy to demonstrate? I'm tired of the usual "you don't know us so stop talking about us we're nice people not women-beating terrorists". I know you're not a psychopath, you're playing FF XI duh... But don't wonder why no one understands you. You keep doing this and no one will ever understand. Or could it be that you actually prefer it this way...?
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By semimmortal 2010-05-03 22:39:52
Quote: Religious : How do you prove that God doesn't exist?
Atheist: Religion is false. How can they believe in such things.
Religious: Can you answer my question?
Atheist : You can't prove that God does exist.
Religious : Do you at least have "some" evidence?
Atheist : Oh you're so rude, talking about my religion, you know... I think I'll just go away. cwatididthar? STFU.
All this thread did from the beginning is a cycle of repeated debates that was mentioned and answered multiple times.
Only thing I see that was accomplished was you being butthurt over the religious people.
Don't believe in their beliefs? Turn the other way and keep walking...
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By Ragnarok.Psyence 2010-05-03 22:42:17
semimmortal said: Turn the other way and keep walking...
That was kind of cheap... :)
Considering you're on the 17th page of this thread, still posting.
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By Trebold 2010-05-03 22:45:32
Keiya said: Asura.Korpg said: Ragnarok.Action said: Rafik i said this before and ill say it again, our book dont say put mask on woman face... and u say under like we put our womans in boxes..
Then why do you demand your women to put veils on and say its for religion?
Because they do believe its from religion , that what they understand from holy quran and sonah :
The holy quran actually stated single line regarding this matter but some schools understand it in a way that its a must to put veils, others understand in opposite way.
Al-Nur (I am muslim myself so I know about this)
024.031 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards God, that ye may attain Bliss.
However the bold part doesn't have to be the prove that Quran saying its a must (Some people understand that this line means hiding the face , others understand that this line mean Hijab the one you put on hair only)
different understanding to this matter leads to two possible groups:
1) group that believe its a must to cover entire body except face/hand
2) group that believe its a must to cover entire body but one eye or both eyes
Both can be right (You have the right to choose since its not quran/religion matter but schools understanding (different mathaheb))
For the second group their reason that woman might be too beautiful that would make people staring , by people they don't mean non-muslims only but muslims too (some old men do stare alot more than young ones lol)
perhaps this link is useful:
http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html
for married women if putting niqab/veils make the husband pleased then its better for her to do so , in this matter its not for the sake of religion but for the sake of her husband (hope you get what I am trying to say here).
oh, semiimortal, did you catch this? Because that's the same verse I was talking about that you wouldn't dare accept.
By semimmortal 2010-05-03 22:48:08
Ragnarok.Psyence said: semimmortal said: Quote: Religious : How do you prove that God doesn't exist?
Atheist: Religion is false. How can they believe in such things.
Religious: Can you answer my question?
Atheist : You can't prove that God does exist.
Religious : Do you at least have "some" evidence?
Atheist : Oh you're so rude, talking about my religion, you know... I think I'll just go away. cwatididthar? STFU.
All this thread did from the beginning is a cycle of repeated debates that was mentioned and answered multiple times.
Only thing I see that was accomplished was you being butthurt over the religious people.
Don't believe in their beliefs? Turn the other way and keep walking...
That was kind of cheap... :) Would be cheaper for me to not post at all to this thread.
But I had to! It's like watching a HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE child playing in the middle of the road.
Opps?
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-03 22:51:01
btw like in every country there is some sort of local "culture" that people follow. You need to know the religion like the back of your hand to filter out those cultural practices.... they are also the cause for certain misconception in the muslim community. Like how that Huge *** Burka (the thing covering the girls face all the way to her feet) is Cultural... there is a debate about this with Big scholars but for the time being this is not required by the religion >.> its "optional" and some cultures Demands it. its just one example...could name a few but I just got back from work and yall will tl:dr if I write anymore.
By semimmortal 2010-05-03 22:53:41
Trebold said: Keiya said: Asura.Korpg said: Ragnarok.Action said: Rafik i said this before and ill say it again, our book dont say put mask on woman face... and u say under like we put our womans in boxes..
Then why do you demand your women to put veils on and say its for religion?
Because they do believe its from religion , that what they understand from holy quran and sonah :
The holy quran actually stated single line regarding this matter but some schools understand it in a way that its a must to put veils, others understand in opposite way.
Al-Nur (I am muslim myself so I know about this)
024.031 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards God, that ye may attain Bliss.
However the bold part doesn't have to be the prove that Quran saying its a must (Some people understand that this line means hiding the face , others understand that this line mean Hijab the one you put on hair only)
different understanding to this matter leads to two possible groups:
1) group that believe its a must to cover entire body except face/hand
2) group that believe its a must to cover entire body but one eye or both eyes
Both can be right (You have the right to choose since its not quran/religion matter but schools understanding (different mathaheb))
For the second group their reason that woman might be too beautiful that would make people staring , by people they don't mean non-muslims only but muslims too (some old men do stare alot more than young ones lol)
perhaps this link is useful:
http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html
for married women if putting niqab/veils make the husband pleased then its better for her to do so , in this matter its not for the sake of religion but for the sake of her husband (hope you get what I am trying to say here).
oh, semiimortal, did you catch this? Because that's the same verse I was talking about that you wouldn't dare accept. From the site posted in that quote: Quote: O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils)* all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Quote: *the arabic word here is Jalabeeb (plural of Jalbaab), which is the loose outer garment that covers all a woman's body. It says here to use the Jalabeeb to cover all, and scholars say this means to use it to cover her head (agree upon by all scholars) and her face (agreed by many scholars, not all) and one or both eyes, in order for it to be known that she is a free woman and so not to be exposed to any harm. All muslims require their ladies to cover their faces too right? Gotcha. /sarcasm
Not sure anymore why you're trying to defend your posts, but meh.
It was mentioned that it's not to look down on women, but to- aaah *** it, I hate broken recorders.
No you're right. It's demoralizing!
By Trebold 2010-05-03 22:56:16
Ramuh.Thunderz said: btw like in every country there is some sort of local "culture" that people follow. You need to know the religion like the back of your hand to filter out those cultural practices.... they are also the cause for certain misconception in the muslim community. Like how that Huge *** Burka (the thing covering the girls face all the way to her feet) is Cultural... there is a debate about this with Big scholars but for the time being this is not required by the religion >.> its "optional" and some cultures Demands it. its just one example...could name a few but I just got back from work and yall will tl:dr if I write anymore.
Yes, but the thing is. The scholars use these verses from the Qu'ran to support their claim, even if the verses are cryptic. This just causes a never ending cycle of "our religion says so, so our culture will remain this way". Or, "based on our culture, this is probably what the religion meant".
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By Ragnarok.Psyence 2010-05-03 22:57:03
semimmortal said: Would be cheaper for me to not post at all to this thread. It would actually be nice if you replied things that serve the discussion. I'm asking why it's so difficult to talk about Islam without offending deeply. I'm not even putting you down. My OP was actually an attempt at understanding the link between your culture and your religion, because 90% of my experiences with Islam ended up with someone hyperventilating (breathing very quickly) and defending himself, whenever I even touched the subject, even before I became an atheist. It also seems I'm not the only one. It proves that I'm thinking about it, and that I'm trying to figure what's up. Let me guess, you didn't even read it? You just assumed it would be insulting?
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-03 23:03:02
Trebold said: Ramuh.Thunderz said: btw like in every country there is some sort of local "culture" that people follow. You need to know the religion like the back of your hand to filter out those cultural practices.... they are also the cause for certain misconception in the muslim community. Like how that Huge *** Burka (the thing covering the girls face all the way to her feet) is Cultural... there is a debate about this with Big scholars but for the time being this is not required by the religion >.> its "optional" and some cultures Demands it. its just one example...could name a few but I just got back from work and yall will tl:dr if I write anymore.
Yes, but the thing is. The scholars use these verses from the Qu'ran to support their claim, even if the verses are cryptic. This just causes a never ending cycle of "our religion says so, so our culture will remain this way". Or, "based on our culture, this is probably what the religion meant".
Taking the Qu'ran word for word is not correct. That is why there is the Qu'ran and the Hadith (or Sunna) that explains how the prophet implemented the rules of Qu'ran into his day 2 day life. The 2 work hand in hand and again I strongly suggest working with a trust worthy person when studying this since there is people who wrote "fake" Hadith after they failed trying to modify the Qu'ran. But yeah I get what you mean
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-03 23:05:10
Keiya said: Phoenix.Darki said: I have a question, right now I'm actually watching a series about arabic culture and what not... they just said something about the celebration of the virgin, when a woman marries and she has sex with her husband and the sheets are stained, she is worthy of being his wife, but i dont understand something though, how is that possible? its prooven today that not every woman bleeds on her first time, hymens can break beforehand, when I had my first time I didn't bleed.
so how does that work? though just asking, im not questioning and I expect a mature answer, thankyou.
I missed this part on how it actually can be done , first time he gets alone with her , he checks if she's virgin or not by trying to break her hymen (finger or his thing) then he looks to see if there are some blood or not.
If she bleed then he continue ..
if she didn't , well that depends if he have enough knowledge he will understand that bleeding isn't prove , if he doesn't have that knowledge he will tell her to go home to her father and mother lol probably divorce.
My friend got married few years ago. She was afraid that she lost her hymen back in school because she played a sport and happen to fall and bleed from there .. she told her husband (or rather the man whose going to be her husband) about this. He didn't believe her and told her "we will see". After wedding ceremony they went to hotel/ closed door/tried to break her hymen (yes yes no preparation @ all ) , guess what she actually bleed and he cried (seriously) then he told her : Don't blame me a lot of guys do the same!
I also heard of another girl who didn't bleed , the guy got angry took her to her family and told them , they took her to doctor then they figured out that she doesn't have hymen from the very beginning. Of course the guy tried to get her back but she said "my pride as woman won't allow me to go back to him" or something like that.
I see, poor women of that culture, have to go through that pressure and even when they fail miserably at it for some natural cause they get degraded.
Atheism FTW.
By semimmortal 2010-05-03 23:07:08
I'm a Christian actually... or used to be one. Not really though. Just the person that can tell the difference between right and wrong without people/books telling me.
Anyways. Why I'm pretty upset with your posts is that you're actually generalizing a specific group of people. 90%? lololol
yeah, assuming you've met 90 muslims out of a 100 and discussed with them...
Same goes with Atheists. 100% of the atheists I've talked to (cwatididthar?) are always looking down on other people with beliefs.
Which brings up a question... Why would you want to criticize others based on their beliefs? Do you need to go after the JPs next for bowing? Do you need to go after Rap music next because it's not music according to most people?
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-03 23:09:54
ummm...what are you on about.
Girls in the Western world gotta face the pressure to look a certain way or they will be shunned. all ways of life have a up and down side trying to show yours off as the best is just stupid. You do know having alcohol legal kills thousands of people either on the road or crime related...ruins family and individual lifes. So go Islam?? jeez dude
By Keiya 2010-05-03 23:13:38
semimmortal said: Trebold said:
oh, semiimortal, did you catch this? Because that's the same verse I was talking about that you wouldn't dare accept.
From the site posted in that quote: Quote: O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils)* all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Quote: *the arabic word here is Jalabeeb (plural of Jalbaab), which is the loose outer garment that covers all a woman's body. It says here to use the Jalabeeb to cover all, and scholars say this means to use it to cover her head (agree upon by all scholars) and her face (agreed by many scholars, not all) and one or both eyes, in order for it to be known that she is a free woman and so not to be exposed to any harm. All muslims require their ladies to cover their faces too right? Gotcha. /sarcasm
Not sure anymore why you're trying to defend your posts, but meh.
It was mentioned that it's not to look down on women, but to- aaah *** it, I hate broken recorders.
No you're right. It's demoralizing!
Notice they write the head part agreed by all scholars but the face part by many not all
To make showing face absolute forbidden ALL scholars have to agree otherwise it remains optional for woman to cover or not
And that's why many Islamic countries don't have veils a must
By Trebold 2010-05-03 23:14:56
Bowing is a respectful thing towards others. Putting them in a higher position than yourself. Humility, even.
"The young rice stalk stands straight and tall, but the mature one, bows low."
Rap music is freedom of speech, nobody forced people to make rap music, they simply do it.
Wearing veils, on the other hand, is something that is forced, and is not done out of humility. It's one-sided as well, "only women have to cover up". Are you really comparing these things to each other?
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-03 23:17:32
I'm a Christian actually... or used to be one. Not really though. Just the person that can tell the difference between right and wrong without people/books telling me.
Anyways. Why I'm pretty upset with your posts is that you're actually generalizing a specific group of people. 90%? lololol
yeah, assuming you've met 90 muslims out of a 100 and discussed with them...
Same goes with Atheists. 100% of the atheists I've talked to (cwatididthar?) are always looking down on other people with beliefs.
Which brings up a question... Why would you want to criticize others based on their beliefs? Do you need to go after the JPs next for bowing? Do you need to go after Rap music next because it's not music according to most people?
^^^
listen Semimmortal, listen right there, you are generalizing yourself on atheists, so dont generalize if your gonna critisize generalizing, kay? kay.
By semimmortal 2010-05-03 23:21:02
Keiya said: Notice they write the head part agreed by all scholars but the face part by many not all
To make showing face absolute forbidden ALL scholars have to agree otherwise it remains optional for woman to cover or not
And that's why many Islamic countries don't have veils a must Trebold said: Wearing veils, on the other hand, is something that is forced, and is not done out of humility. It's one-sided as well, "only women have to cover up". Are you really comparing these things to each other? I'm confused now... So it's a must? Or is it optional?
Also, I've explained why they don the thing. A few pages back.
Which is the main reason why I'm regretting to post back here ><
By semimmortal 2010-05-03 23:22:36
@Darki: sorry, quotes are randomly failing. But that was meant for Psyence. What I was trying to say (by making a silly example in my post) is generalizing people is not the way to go.
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-03 23:24:01
Garuda.Mabrook said: Like I said in my previous posts, religion is not harm. It is satin who you should be afraid of, the brother of Adam.
I hope the end doesn't happen in my life...
1000 Earth years is one day in heaven. So all we can do is have patience I suppose. I mean, not every body ia bad and bad can be considered all types of ways.
It's just how bad is your bad is considered by God, the responsiblity as a human to confront God at his mightier power.
If Islam became everything, there would be no responsiblity, so this is what is to happen.
The never ending debate of it's not my fault lol.
what? tbh I didn't get it
Trebold said: Bowing is a respectful thing towards others. Putting them in a higher position than yourself. Humility, even.
"The young rice stalk stands straight and tall, but the mature one, bows low."
Rap music is freedom of speech, nobody forced people to make rap music, they simply do it.
Wearing veils, on the other hand, is something that is forced, and is not done out of humility. It's one-sided as well, "only women have to cover up". Are you really comparing these things to each other?
actually wearing the "hijab" or head veil is recommended in the religion but is not "Forced" again this is a cultural thing when someone "Forces" that on the women. bowing imo is showing your inferior to someone else. Also, men have to cover up as well this is not one sided stop trying to argue on something you know nothing about. "I heard this on CNN It must be true??!!!." so do all Atheist watch CNN/FOX news and believe like their own little bible O.O (j/k) but yeah your totally a troll
By Trebold 2010-05-03 23:29:14
semimmortal said: Keiya said: Notice they write the head part agreed by all scholars but the face part by many not all
To make showing face absolute forbidden ALL scholars have to agree otherwise it remains optional for woman to cover or not
And that's why many Islamic countries don't have veils a must Trebold said: Wearing veils, on the other hand, is something that is forced, and is not done out of humility. It's one-sided as well, "only women have to cover up". Are you really comparing these things to each other? I'm confused now... So it's a must? Or is it optional?
Also, I've explained why they don the thing. A few pages back.
Which is the main reason why I'm regretting to post back here ><
Many: "not all". Implicitly stating, there are those which do force veils. lol, I can only imagine the kind of person you are in real life.. I'm guessing the kid who sits in class constantly trying to find ways to correct the professor. And everyone else just sighs aloud when they see you raise your hand.
By Keiya 2010-05-03 23:31:30
semimmortal said: Keiya said: Notice they write the head part agreed by all scholars but the face part by many not all
To make showing face absolute forbidden ALL scholars have to agree otherwise it remains optional for woman to cover or not
And that's why many Islamic countries don't have veils a must Trebold said: Wearing veils, on the other hand, is something that is forced, and is not done out of humility. It's one-sided as well, "only women have to cover up". Are you really comparing these things to each other? I'm confused now... So it's a must? Or is it optional?
Also, I've explained why they don the thing. A few pages back.
Which is the main reason why I'm regretting to post back here ><
As I said earlier the same versus , can and cannot prove the veil a must or not , different schools understand in both ways (one way its a must others not) due to their translation. That's why scholars have to decide by looking to Quran/Sunnah. As the site said all scholars agreed to head but not all of them agreed to face.
See the problem with veil shape and what it covers , which wasn't mentioned in Quran but need to look further in sunnah
So bottom line : Yes people will use this verses but its not enough so then scholars have to agree (which they did for head) that the face is a must (which many did but not all).
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-03 23:34:02
that reply doesn't answer anything. Scholars need to discuss over the subject. Since this is a ongoing discussion there is no ruling over it. "optional" is where its at now. Scholars are not rulers of nations, they are people who study religion for a living (yes I had to stop and explain it to you since you clearly dont get it)
lemme put it in words your familiar with, Durka Durka Jihad
By Trebold 2010-05-03 23:35:10
Durka Durka? Durka Durka Mohammad Jihad
By semimmortal 2010-05-03 23:35:43
lol
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By Seraph.Rafik 2010-05-03 23:36:09
hi captain...
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-03 23:36:16
semimmortal said: @Darki: sorry, quotes are randomly failing. But that was meant for Psyence. What I was trying to say (by making a silly example in my post) is generalizing people is not the way to go.
wurd.
I'm atheist and i dont look down on others beliefs, but i do look down on those that try to impose them and make up arguments with me as if trying to proove my own wrong. anyways a good religious mature debate is always nice, as long as both parties respect.
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-03 23:38:16
Phoenix.Darki said: semimmortal said: @Darki: sorry, quotes are randomly failing. But that was meant for Psyence. What I was trying to say (by making a silly example in my post) is generalizing people is not the way to go.
wurd.
I'm atheist and i dont look down on others beliefs, but i do look down on those that try to impose them and make up arguments with me as if trying to proove my own wrong. anyways a good religious mature debate is always nice, as long as both parties respect.
if both parties leave the debate having learned something new then everyone wins
except the HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE people...damn HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE people
:P
I think I figured out how it is possible that the large majority of people from the Muslim world would be so profoundly offended when their Prophet is criticized or made fun of. I mean, to them, it could very well look obvious, yet it seems they do not really understand why either. A lot of them just accept that someone would be killed for depicting the prophet Mohamed, even though we ask them why, in a way that we feel cannot be argued with. How is it possible that someone would be hated for openly making fun of something as mundane as religion, we ask? I think I can reasonably explain why they would accept the idea, believe it or not. I want to know what is to be done if we're going to help these people stop feeling so persecuted and if we’re going to finally gain the right to criticize Islam, as it should be, without threatening the people in it. The answer, I think, lies in our perceptions of what religion is versus where it should stand in relations to ethnicity. Help me out.
First, it is difficult to argue against the idea that Islam, to this day, is majorly against the advancement of secular culture. It is associated so directly to what I would refer, for lack of a better word, Arabian culture, that criticizing a religion tied so closely with it, appears (at least from my personal experience) to insult them, as people. Another factor to consider is how Muslims, despite their divisions, have the strength in numbers to lead us into being cautious about criticizing Islamic beliefs, even if it shouldn’t be so. Any critic, whether it is well intentioned or backed with incredibly solid and logical arguments, seems to backfire when it is targeted at Islam. More than often, it seems to be giving more reasons to feel justified, leading Islamic countries to cocoon themselves from modern secular culture. Unlike other ethnicities that are also extremely tied to their religion; the Jews, for example, the fact that they’re over a billion, somewhat gives them the mental ability to feel universally justified. It’s as if any strong criticism of Islam was a threat to their identity, integrity and intelligence, even when it’s not...
In a secular view, insulting religion doesn't necessarily equate to racial discrimination, and the fact that our western culture systematically ignores this, is the key point that prevents the western world from understanding why Muslims would be so offended. I have come to realize that a lot of Muslims try to say it, but it seems they do not understand what I am writing here, at least not enough to put it into the proper words that would make us understand. My goal is to help us both come to understand, through careful yet fortunate observations which I feel have led me to grasp some of this intricate psychology.
Let’s think for a second about this analogy: Let’s compare some white guy shouting racist comments towards blacks to your average non-Christian openly criticizing Christianity. Which is the worst, in the eyes of the average American, or European? Racism, isn’t it? Racism is undoubtedly the worst of those two things, at least according to our modern secular values. This is not to say that racism has been eradicated from the Western world, far from it. But even for the most racist among us in North America, it is extremely discouraged to make a racist statement publicly. It is not viewed as acceptable at all.
Have you ever seen a single Arabic person and expect him not to be a Muslim? It's as if their religion has so much grasp that it's nearly impossible for an Arabic person to not be a Muslim. But why doesn’t anyone seem to question this fact? Isn’t it fishy, considering that religion should be a choice? In fact, Muslims, in Muslim countries, are taught, from childhood, that the punishment for apostasy is death. The indoctrination is done to them so early in their life, and in such a strong and unquestionable way, that it achieves terrific results; it is almost irreversible. To them this is a good thing; to us, it’s just wrong.
In my opinion, the fact that Islam, as a religion, has been able to keep such a strong grasp, to this day, on the lives of the almost entirety of Arabic cultures is leading the Islamic world to a dangerous path. We all know that not only religion can be used to control masses, ii can also be a dangerous weapon. In America, some will argue, television is used for mass propaganda and it is difficult for the majority to avoid being brainwashed by many ideas that they would otherwise have never acquired as individuals. However, an average occidental still gets to make SOME choices about what morality should be; they chose whether they’ll be for or against abortion, whether they’ll be against slavery or not, whether they’ll vote for a black man or not.
It is possible to speak with a Muslim about what we dislike in Islam, without him getting angry. I have experienced it myself. It is difficult, however. Even as I was able to converse, I would feel the incredible pain that questioning one’s own identity can inflict on an indoctrinated individual. As we cannot tolerate being racially discriminated, they cannot tolerate negative criticism of Islam; they view is as their culture.
It may be sad to say, for most of us who wish for world peace, but secularism is not going to happen anytime soon in the Arab world. It could never be forced on Muslims. It is completely against their conception of what a religion should be and what place it should have in their life. Through what I have just explained, we can even understand the bottomless frustration of Muslims against non-Muslims when faced with debates like whether or not we should be banning the Burka in public spaces. The same issue arises: to us, it’s common sense and required for secularism, to them it’s a slap in the face, not as a Muslim but as an Arab. To us, it's freedom of speech; to them, it's against it. It is an insult to their culture, just as we would react to someone trying to deny our right to have a cultural background, just as we would react to a Muslim telling a White woman that wearing g-strings is degrading and wrong.
How can we possibly achieve a secular society, with Muslims living in it, if we do not agree on whether it’s okay to force someone to act secularly? Aren’t we stuck with the problem of having many kids arguing about who gets to play with the ball, while one of the kids sits on the ball, arguing that it should not be played with in the first place? How flexible can secularism be, without ending up betraying itself?
Can we find a temporary solution? I would like your opinion.
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