where was this sentiment when the situation was reversed with bush and the republicans lol
I get what you're saying and to an extent it makes a good point, but was it this bad with Bush the first year in? I can't say "oh I've always thought that, it was unfair then" because it wasn't until the last election that I was actually interested in politics in the least, but I think Bush actually had time to *** things up before the sky started falling and Hitler made a triumphant return, etc.
Caitsith.Jadi said:
I don't know who your talking about but I don't have a party and I don't want one. I need no rulers and I need no political ideology. I have a personal philosophy that is much deeper and rational than any political ideology.
Using force on others is always wrong. Where as you are free to have the government provide YOU health care if this is what you want, forcing other people, yes adults who HONESTLY DO NOT WANT IT, is wrong. They should be free to do what they like and make their own choices in life, just as you should be able to have the freedom to do the same.
Somehow we teach our children that Democracy is freedom.. as if somehow a tyrannical majority is better than a tyrannical dictator.
It wasn't specifically directed at you, I just wanted to make the point because it felt relevant in this as well as any big political hooplah. I get that you're making a greater message than simply "I think this singular event is bad" as opposed to arguing the faults of living under a massive Government, but I think in that regard you might have a limited audience as I think a majority are concerned about what this bill that has been passed means to all of us in the here and now.
This has been touched a little earlier, but needs to be fully explained (or explained as much as possible without boring the hell out of everyone) the consequences of this bill.
People who support the bill say that it works for other countries, and thats true, I won't deny that. But the United States of America is not like other countries. We don't have the flexability with our economy as others do. Our economy is so intertwined with others that its no longer just 1 country's economy, but the fate of the whole world. So whatever happens to this country effects everyone in a major stance. This is proven by our major recessions and depressions, as well as our growth and stability. When US was going up, the world went up with it. Going down, so did everyone else. You have to accept that as a major truth.
Now, you have to admit, this will not be good for the US economy. We can't keep printing money to support this, as shown thru history of bad inflation made by just printing money. We can't pay for this with complete taxpayer's and corporate tax. This will lower income for everyone, and lower the strenght of the economy (lower income leads to lower investments which leads to no new jobs created, higher unemployment, and THAT will lead to an even worse economy based on the death spiral this has caused). We can't keep borrowing from other countries, look at what that put us today. How are we going to pay all this without hurting ourselves in the short, medium, and long runs?
The main reason why this "legislation" works for everyone else is because they weren't too deep in debt and too dependent on everyone else, so the governments were able to force the money from their people. USA can not do this. Its too strong at the moment. Its too dependent on the world, and its too influencial on the world economy. ***like this only works for smaller, less dependent countries that don't have loans out to other countries the size of their entire budget.
I really hope that the state lawsuits do work out and stop this from becoming the worst governmental disaster in the history of the nation.
my wife and i have also had a few of those "visits" to the hospital. Its amazing that tens of thousands of dollars can be spent when A. u are misdiagnosed B. there is little to no service C. little too no actual merchandise has been used
D. u get things that are not needed/wanted
THIS IS WHY HEALTH CARE COST SO DAMN MUCH, NOT INSURANCE!!!
sorry for caps i think my button got stuck..... but really doctors/hospitals are the biggest scam ever to be invented. there is no reason for 90% of the stuff that is done to cost nearly what they charge.
i have no insurance, i went in for stitch's "waited in lobby for 3hrs, bleeding to death" there was 3 ppl infront of me the whole time, who looked to me and my wife perfectly fine. when i get back to see the NURSE not doctor.. she quickly "whole thing took 5MIN" GLUED yes i said GLUED.. my 5inch gash shut.. 1 month later i get a bill for 500$ FOR 5minutes of a nurse's time and glue, now u tell me whats wrong here.....................
one more since im ranting. wife gets gall bladder taken out. we made oppointment, showed up at hospital the operation literally took 15 minutes, after the operation while i was talking to the nurse, she says they gave 7 more scheduled for that day.. 1 month later i get the bill.... 13k for 15minute's of a doctors time and w/e equipment they used.. lets see 13k X 8ppl = $832,000 they made that day.... and we think we need better insurance!! i think we need to start finding out why the hell they are TAKING THIS MONEY...
and before all u ppl say ohhh the doctors are saving lives and they need that money cause there just so smart and nobody else can do it. u kinda ppl can just shove it right now. ^
|
yeah.. Quote isn't working for me |
|
|
about this---------------------------
Why is it okay to pay some dumb *** 10 million a year to toss a football around.. but it's not okay to pay a Doctor a few thousand for saving your life? GTFO
Somehow we teach our children that Democracy is freedom.. as if somehow a tyrannical majority is better than a tyrannical dictator.
Constitutional Republic with informed people, that is not run by big business or trusts, and has more than two major parties is freedom.
Democracy is simply mob rule, freedom if you are the mob of course!
Is it? Are you free?
I got a test to tell if your free.. Next time the government asks you to do something. Just tell them no and see what happens to you.
Next time one of their goons flashes the blue and red lights behind you, wave at him and tell him your free and see how it goes.
If you live while saying no.. you passed the test.
How does what you just said have anything to do with what I said or what I quoted.
Do we live in a:
"Constitutional Republic with informed people, that is not run by big business or trusts, and has more than two major parties is freedom."?
No that is the exact opposite of what we live in, so what the *** are you on about?
Without jumping into the debate, I should point out that the state lawsuits are meaningless, as the federal Supremacy Clause of the Constitution (Article VI, Clause 2) trumps whatever legislation or lawsuit the states come up with. It's long-established law at this point.
It's the same argument as the civil war, and we all know how that ended.
Somehow we teach our children that Democracy is freedom.. as if somehow a tyrannical majority is better than a tyrannical dictator.
Constitutional Republic with informed people, that is not run by big business or trusts, and has more than two major parties is freedom.
Democracy is simply mob rule, freedom if you are the mob of course!
Is it? Are you free?
I got a test to tell if your free.. Next time the government asks you to do something. Just tell them no and see what happens to you.
Next time one of their goons flashes the blue and red lights behind you, wave at him and tell him your free and see how it goes.
If you live while saying no.. you passed the test.
How does what you just said have anything to do with what I said or what I quoted.
Do we live in a:
"Constitutional Republic with informed people, that is not run by big business or trusts, and has more than two major parties is freedom."?
No that is the exact opposite of what we live in, so what the *** are you on about?
So we agree..? we are not free are we.
We give up rights to be part of a collective nation and gain benefits from that, but the question is how far will that go
I really hope that the state lawsuits do work out and stop this from becoming the worst governmental disaster in the history of the nation.
Hardly
Explain then, why you don't think this would be a disaster.
Explain why you don't think the economy will drop out from all the taxation caused from this?
Explain why you don't think that companies will go out of businesses because they can't afford to keep up with all these new taxes they have to pay? Side note of this question, actually look at the bill, they have to pay 2 more taxes for each employee because of this, one for the insurred, and one for the uninsurred.
Explain why you don't think this won't cause a higher unemployment rate, or that companies, in order to survive, have to lay off people to pay for this new tax.
Explain why you think the government is actually responsible to say what medicine you should take, how much of it, and who you should go see.
Explain why you think this is a good idea to limit research and development from medical companies by taxing them higher just because they have to charge more to pay for the R&D.
You never heard the kind of bs in this thread when Bush was president as when Obama is. "Tyranny" "Some of us won't see these benefits before we die" "We're spending money we don't have", etc, etc. None of this stuff is new, everyone thinks they're a political analyst because Obama becoming president sparked a little curiosity. Now half of those posters here should start over and read a little more into anything discussed here before they think they have the right to tell others what to think.
It's funny how people can hear one story from one source, take is as the truth. Tell everyone else is the truth, and they believe it now too. It's like a virus or something. Do yourselves a favor and next time don't vote unless you can at least take the initiative to read up on an issue online.
You're not doing America any favors exercising you "Patriotic" duty to make an ill-informed decision (I personally like Obama) for voting for someone you don't understand. Just so you can jump on the next bandwagon after Obama's comes to a halt (Obama is a DICTATOR!!!!!!!).
Oh really? Government works so well ehh? Just gonna solve all our problems.. hehe.. If ONLY we could just write the right laws right?! rofl.
Name me one government program that had exactly the results that were sold to the people and cost exactly what it stated it would.
.. there must be one.. but I can't think of one.
That's like saying the Emancipation Proclamation was worthless because initially it freed nobody (since it affected the north, where there were no slaves and had no power over the south, where there were) or that giving blacks the right to vote was worthless because white supremacists blocked voters. Just because it doesn't work perfectly and has problems doesn't make it a waste of time.
I'm not expecting the government to make America a dreamland, and I'm sure it won't work exactly as planned, I'm simply pleased with legislation that I think will have far-reaching benefits that will offset it.
But let's talk about what you seem to think is the better alternative, going by your avatar pic: Anarchy. There is no such example of a nationwide move to anarchy that worked and it ought to be painfully obvious why: when there is no law, no government, no society to speak of, things fall apart and we have not peace, but chaos. Any place where the government is weakened or obliterated exemplifies this, and the result is mass suffering. Anarchy works nowhere else but in theory, and total freedom is pointless if there's no guarantee that you'll live long enough to exercise it.
Sure, government sucks, the social contract limits freedom, and it'd be great if we could all just get along without threat of consequences, but the reality is that having at least some government (provided the government isn't a genocidal dictatorship, and say what you will, ours is still a republic) is better than none at all. If you think otherwise, you're just naive.
Looks like its time for Texas to secede from the union. We don't want to be a part of this debacle. We do have that option, we don't have to be a part of Obamanation.
Without jumping into the debate, I should point out that the state lawsuits are meaningless, as the federal Supremacy Clause of the Constitution trumps whatever legislation or lawsuit the states come up with. It's long-established law at this point.
It's the same argument as the civil war, and we all know how that ended.
The lawsuits are not about the law, its about the bounds the federal goverment steped over to force people in each individual states to pay for a federal mandated item. Tax is one thing (to pay for the military of the nation mainly) but to force a product on the people is another.
But yes, its the same argument as the civil war. Thats the problem, isn't it?
Justify it however you want.. we are far from free.. we are not represented and we continuously harm people with threats of violence and actual violence while declaring we are the most free idiots on earth.
We are blind, stupid, and fat. (fat because of trade tariffs on sugar cause us to use corn syrup that is harder for some people to digest)
Take the test some day man.. just try it out a little.. feel the bite.
All these stories of people getting glue in their head for $500, a gallbladder for $13,000, thousands of dollars for morphine, crutches for $400, an Ace bandage for literally $85 when you can get it in CVS for $5.
This ALL had to change, it is sickening that someone can go to the hospital and pay all this money (PRICE GOUGE WTF!!!!) for so little. Why should doctors literally get an elevator and lavish fountains in their houses for doing less than a artist or magician on the street selling themselves?
The DMV analogy I am seeing everywhere is dumb too (IRL today before I read it here). When I was younger and needed to get stitches in my head for landing on my head in the street off a bike (remember a bike is made for one, not two people...). I sat there for under two-ish hours when the room was practically empty. That really means nothing though, compared to the waiting videos and stories of some 16 hour wait or people dying in the waiting room of previous posts. The waits can not really get significantly worse.
Seppoko said:
Altimaomega
I don't know what cost so much. my initial visit to the ER. I wanted for 2 hours while sweating and feeling like ***in the ER and the doctor could finally see me, she shook my hand said i was burning up, took my temp and swabbed my mouth to find out if it was flu. the whole process took 5 minutes, max. my bill was $370 explain to me what cost that much for me to sit in the chair and see a doctor for 5 minutes.
Something is wrong somewhere. We have been unwilling as a people and as a government to do ANYTHING about it to this point. I dislike this legislation it is full of kickbacks, handouts and garbage... but seriously it is Something and something is always better than nothing. Whether it fixes everything or falls flat on it's face it has gotten the ball rolling. Perhaps we can have input from both sides for when this gets tweaked and adjusted in future votes.
All i know is people will never agree 100% on anything, this is a sad fact that this forum has pointed out over and over. while this new law or w/e u want to call it is a definite change to the system, it was done in the worst possible way imaginable. i am not a Democrat, and im not much of a republican. but 2 things have happened that will divide ppl even more. 1. the government has imposed its will on it citizens. 2. it needed to be done because it was massively flawed..
now regarding #1 if the Gov. would have simply not wined about it for so damn long, got along and acted like professionals. a lot less "impose'ing" would have been done and mabey more ppl would accept it for what it is.
regarding #2 the only reason it needed to be done is because the Gov. let Doctors/hospitals get out of control charge'ing massive fee's for there service's.
i for one am on the fence about the whole thing, while i truely hate the gov. interfering with my life.. i also see the benifits this "COULD" have.. i say could because there is still a lot of time before we see what happens and they can still FVCK it up.
Without jumping into the debate, I should point out that the state lawsuits are meaningless, as the federal Supremacy Clause of the Constitution trumps whatever legislation or lawsuit the states come up with. It's long-established law at this point.
It's the same argument as the civil war, and we all know how that ended.
The lawsuits are not about the law, its about the bounds the federal goverment steped over to force people in each individual states to pay for a federal mandated item. Tax is one thing (to pay for the military of the nation mainly) but to force a product on the people is another.
But yes, its the same argument as the civil war. Thats the problem, isn't it?
All he's saying is that people who interpret the constitution as you conveniently claim to have already had their say on this matter. They lost. That creates established law. Too hard to follow?
The irony is for the last 10 years the conservative-led SCOTUS have been handing down one decision after another affirming the powers of the Federal Government, all to the cheers of you and yours - because it was a Bush in the driver's seat.
Now that someone else is writing the law all you can do is cry like children and make fake arguments like you have been on this page - all because of your own short-sightedness.
Yeah.. sure.. Justify it however you want.. we are far from free.. we are not represented and we continuously harm people with threats of violence and actual violence while declaring we are the most free idiots on earth. We are blind, stupid, and fat. (fat because of trade tariffs on sugar cause us to use corn syrup that is harder for some people to digest) Take the test some day man.. just try it out a little.. feel the bite.
Oh ***bro this is too real and scarey they goint to tear you down you know the masses want to stay ignorant. What the hell is this conspiracy ***.. GTFO ^^ NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Oh really? Government works so well ehh? Just gonna solve all our problems.. hehe.. If ONLY we could just write the right laws right?! rofl.
Name me one government program that had exactly the results that were sold to the people and cost exactly what it stated it would.
.. there must be one.. but I can't think of one.
That's like saying the Emancipation Proclamation was worthless because initially it freed nobody (since it affected the north, where there were no slaves and had no power over the south, where there were) or that giving blacks the right to vote was worthless because white supremacists blocked voters. Just because it doesn't work perfectly and has problems doesn't make it a waste of time.
I'm not expecting the government to make America a dreamland, and I'm sure it won't work exactly as planned, I'm simply pleased with legislation that I think will have far-reaching benefits that will offset it.
But let's talk about what you seem to think is the better alternative, going by your avatar pic: Anarchy. There is no such example of a nationwide move to anarchy that worked and it ought to be painfully obvious why: when there is no law, no government, no society to speak of, things fall apart and we have not peace, but chaos. Any place where the government is weakened or obliterated exemplifies this, and the result is mass suffering. Anarchy works nowhere else but in theory, and total freedom is pointless if there's no guarantee that you'll live long enough to exercise it.
Sure, government sucks, the social contract limits freedom, and it'd be great if we could all just get along without threat of consequences, but the reality is that having at least some government (provided the government isn't a genocidal dictatorship, and say what you will, ours is still a republic) is better than none at all. If you think otherwise, you're just naive.
There is a right and a wrong answer. Using force on others is the wrong answer.. call it what you will but I will NOT do it.. For me it is the most vile thing I can imaging.. it using force on others is theft, rape, murder and enslavement. If that makes me an anarchist then that is what I am.. but it is not chaos and it is not rule less.. I have many rules on my own property and I like order. I'm sorry I'm the only one well adjusted and against the use of force.. I can't control others, I have NO RIGHT.. if this is what you want great, but I can decry your use of force on those that do not agree.
Truth may not be popular.. but it makes it no less true.
Your interactions with others are virtuous only when they are voluntary.
Ever notice how the various sciences has affected out lives to a great deal in a short amount of time.. save one.. the most ancient of them. Philosophy?
Why is that? We are incredibly barbaric to anyone who simply wants to smoke a joint or opt-out of the system.. why is it wrong to say "thanks for the offer.." I think it's because politicians and religious preachers are very charismatic and lead people away from the horrible truths of our existence. That we are nothing more than slaves to the rich and powerful and when we die we are food for worms.
One more step towards socialism. America is going down the gutter with Obama.
I'm Canadian and we have socialized medicine here. I think it would be a huge improvement if the USA had a better healthcare system. lol
Not to sound like a troll, but if it's so good up there, why did 2-3 of my friends from Canada spend so much time trying to get surgery, and ultimately they each ended up getting treated in America?
Spend time surgery?
Too much lack of detail. Could you further explain what happened?
It's like this you see; Insurance > Surgery > If they can't help you they send you to another "specialized" hospital.
I really don't understand what you're trying to say with "trying to get surgery".
Do you mean the long waiting lines?
EDIT: You do sound like a troll, because you throw out indiviual cases with barely any desription.
Why do you think so many Canadians travel to the United States to receive medical care
Only on page 7 of this so far, but as a Canadian, a lot of people requiring special treatments travel to the US because before this new health care bill it was faster to pay for treatment and get it within the month in the US, then wait up to a year or more in Canada and get it paid for by our health care system. You will now start seeing what we do... 26hours in the emergency room lying on a gurney waiting for a doctor to see you because you have pneumonia. Even in smaller communities emergency room wait times are reaching 10+ hours for something as simple as stitches. Which if people aren't aware of, there is a limited amount of time where stitching a wound is effective.
Only benefit I can see with this health care bill, is our Canadian nurses and doctors that moved to work in the US because of a higher pay potential may return to Canada. Leaving you with an even larger shortage and longer wait times.
The extra 50 million people this bill is designed to insure a majority of them will now have to choose between housing and food or health insurance. How is that fair to them? For the others this bill will make it so those that have survived cancer or have another pre-existing condition will be insured at a decent rate of insurance. Those are the only people who will benefit from this new bill.
Then you do not quite understand how everything works. I am pleased and worried at the same time and spending forever responding to such pessimism of that the sky will fall over people wishing to be selfish.
Hey want a secret? If everyone is burdened to pay their health care it hurts the economy. Health care continuing to rise as is, will severely hurt state and government budgets more in the long run.
Why must everyone only consider the here and now? Short run and long run together are both important, together.
I know that the health care as of yesterday was in a mess. I understand that it needs to be fixed. I think that this is the absolute wrong direction however. Thats my point in this whole argument.
As for only considering the here and now, think for a second. What happens today effects tomorrow. Things do not turn up to be like yesterday tomorrow. We can't go back to the golden age of the '20s, or the '50s if we keep doing ***like this.
But then again, we can't go back to those days anyway. We need to create new golden ages, but this is not the right way. The problem is, who really knows which way is right? We can only be sure of which ways are wrong, however.
Explain then, why you don't think this would be a disaster.
Explain why you don't think the economy will drop out from all the taxation caused from this?
Explain why you don't think that companies will go out of businesses because they can't afford to keep up with all these new taxes they have to pay? Side note of this question, actually look at the bill, they have to pay 2 more taxes for each employee because of this, one for the insurred, and one for the uninsurred.
Explain why you don't think this won't cause a higher unemployment rate, or that companies, in order to survive, have to lay off people to pay for this new tax.
Explain why you think the government is actually responsible to say what medicine you should take, how much of it, and who you should go see.
Explain why you think this is a good idea to limit research and development from medical companies by taxing them higher just because they have to charge more to pay for the R&D.
Please, explain it all to me.
It will affect the economy, nobody said it wouldn't.
Did you forget the HEALTH part?
Could help a little bit fixing a problem called Obesity. I heard it's a big health problem in america!
your not gonna get skinny going to the damn hospital.. why are ppl so retarted?? plus Obesity isnt as "big" of a problem as the NEWS would have u think... once again, cant ppl think for themselves anymore?
Yeah except this is america. That isn't a real reality here unless you mean they are working like 2-3 10 hour a week part time jobs and are waking up at 5 but getting home at 11am lol.
Actually I believe you are the one that is suffering the disassociation from reality.
Quote:
Min wage where I live is $8.55
Did you know there are people in this country that don't live where you live? Have you ever investigated that? Federal minimum wage is 7.25.
Quote:
even just working 40 hours a week that's over $1400 a month. Yeah if you can't afford "basic ***" here doing that then you might want to consider taking back that 50' flat screen or the 50k car you got lol.
But for entertainment purposes we'll run with your numbers, and say $1400 a month (even though 40 hours a week @ $8.55/hr is $1368)
So you're getting $1400 a month, not bad. Now you know, after taxes, that's going to be about $1100. It is, after all, one of the only guarantees in life.
Now I don't know about your town, but in my hometown, (where minimum wage does indeed happen to be $7.25) you can't find a efficiency apartment in the worst section of town for less that $439/month
1100
-439
_____
$661
Now let's say you're a sigle parent, now you can't just leave a baby alone in your apartment parked in front of your 50" flat screen, so that means you're going to have to pay for something called daycare when you're off working at your luxurious minimum wage job. Let's say you're paying a neighbor under the table for daycare, just for the sake of argument for the can't be beat price of $50 dollars a week. (In actuality, closer to $100-150, most people don't like working for $1.25 an hour) so there's another $200
$661
-200
_____
$441
I suppose you also need to get to work, not too many people live right next to their job. So you need to have a car, hell- let's say you own it. But you need to put gas in it, so we'll run with a conservative $15/week in gas.
$441
- 60
_____
$381
Now you and baby need to eat, now while you might be able to subside on ramen and big macs, you're baby actually needs to eat healthy (don't have health insurance) so we'll say $50/ week in food
$381
-200
_____
$181
Things are looking pretty tight. But hey we still got that 50" flat screen don't we, from our incredible minimum wage job? But I suppose we need electricity to turn that sucker on.
$181
- 60
_____
$121
We'll just watch DVDs. I'm sure we'll have some money left over. Oh wait, going to the bathroom might be nice once in a while. Water bill.
$121
- 40
____
$81
Do you see where I'm going here? That's not including a phone, that's barely accounting heat. That's not including any kind of incidental things that happen all the time, need new clothes, car breaking down, anything. THAT is reality.
Quote:
You also might want to consider getting a job that wasn't pretty much made for Highschool kids
I forgot that America had a 100% college graduation rate.
Quote:
I know a job that is always hiring and will hire anyone pretty much that will definitely pay the bills though you'll never get rich lol. But yeah I got up at 5am 5 days a week and was usually at work until 4-10pm. And yeah for a long bit of it I had to spend 24 hours at work every 3 days on top of that. And when I wasn't doing that I was in 8-16 hour a day shift work. And technically I was lucky since somehow 6 years in the navy the only time I went out with the boat was the 1 month I spent getting to the place where we could fix it
I'm glad to hear another military success story. But please realize the military doesn't take everyone, some never get through MEPS, some wash out of school, and for some the military just doesn't work. Being a single parent can work in the military if an appropriate support network is in place, but that is not the situation for everyone. And being in the military, I'm sure you knew quite a few people that were happy to have a truly socialized health care system in place, or if you didn't- trust in the fact that there are thousands of disabled veterans who are.
Yeah.. sure.. Justify it however you want.. we are far from free.. we are not represented and we continuously harm people with threats of violence and actual violence while declaring we are the most free idiots on earth. We are blind, stupid, and fat. (fat because of trade tariffs on sugar cause us to use corn syrup that is harder for some people to digest) Take the test some day man.. just try it out a little.. feel the bite.
Oh ***bro this is too real and scarey they goint to tear you down you know the masses want to stay ignorant. What the hell is this conspiracy ***.. GTFO ^^ NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
To be honest, thats all just one opinion on the history of the world.
If you really believe that, then I feel sorry for you.
and now we have to pay for them to receive health care, and the reform will take quiet a while to take effect anyway.
Just a note about the "paying for them" argument: we already were paying for them.
From all legitimate estimates, this is a deficit neutral, if not deficit reducing bill. The notion that we're going to be in debt to our eyeballs because of this bill isn't mathematically supported.
Kujata.Argettio said:
Most of the ‘against’ arguments revolve around the cost of the system and how it will tax the normal man/business.
While the definition of the "normal" man or business can vary, to my knowledge the bill doesn't introduce taxation to 95% of Americans. Small businesses, of which there are a greater number of than large businesses, also do not receive higher taxes in order to pay for the changes. In fact, they receive tax credits to help them supply their employees with health care insurance. Some claim that "normal" Americans will be picking up the tab, but for that to be true their "normal" American would have to make up about 5% of the population.
Also, just in case people wanted to have the actual documents in front of them and be able to get into the meat of the bill, I'll link some of the official information:
As a red-name, I'm not going to take sides either way. Regardless, it will most certainly be seen as a landmark decision in US politics for a long time to come.
