Health Care Reform Passes

Several states are now suing and the numbers are growing.

No your not "just debating it".

You stop "just debating" when you make it law, then I am forced to accept it.

The OP's post *should* be right, but it's not. The HC bill contains serious threats and violence. We are Americans and we are adults who can choose best what suits us. This HC bill is disgusting.

Why?

* You MUST have health insurance of a kind dictated by politicians. Never mind that you may be young and healthy and decide you want other options.

* If you don't buy health insurance then you'll be fined - your hard earned property, the very fruits of your labor and toil, will be stolen from you by the State.

* If you try to avoid the fine, then minions of the State will find some way to take the money from you.

* If you try to hide your money so that it can't be seized, eventually men with guns will show up at your door to kidnap you, and hold you in confinement in a metal cage.

* If you try to resist this kidnapping then the men will draw their guns, and if you continue to resist.. they will shoot you.. and they will kill you.. Over what? You, a responsible adult deciding you know best how to take care of yourself? This is absolutely absurd.

This is why it's not "just debating" Your free to have an opinion until you pull a gun out on me and force me to accept your ideas.. at that point we are NO LONGER having a civil debate.


If I allow you the freedom to choose government health care, you should allow me the freedom to opt out. (and that means giving me a tax credit so I don't have to pay for it.. fully opting out.) .. and you can't do that.. because it wont work and that EXACTLY is why it's tyrannical and anti-freedom.

I called one person HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE and that was you lol.. and it was in my last sentence. And doctors do make the decisions, I dunno where you get off by saying that the government will be the final decision makers.

Your so literal with how you think the government will be in control with this.

And I don't have to be from America, and as someone who saves lives for a living I think I am allowed express my opinion on it that's why.

Edit: simple grammar mistakes

Then I'd also like to opt-out of a war i find to be unjustifiable, ok? Oh wait that doesn't work does it? you can't pick and chose which taxes you wanna pay and which you don't want to pay for, the only way you have a desiding opinion is to vote for people who will represent you on voting yes/no on these kinda of issues (all taxes in general) you did that, I did that, guess what we voted in this health care bill, you rights have been upheld and so have mine the system that you preach about freedom ect is doing exactly what it's supposed to do.

Yeah except this is america. That isn't a real reality here unless you mean they are working like 2-3 10 hour a week part time jobs and are waking up at 5 but getting home at 11am lol. Min wage where I live is $8.55, even just working 40 hours a week that's over $1400 a month. Yeah if you can't afford "basic ***" here doing that then you might want to consider taking back that 50' flat screen or the 50k car you got lol. You also might want to consider getting a job that wasn't pretty much made for Highschool kids

I know a job that is always hiring and will hire anyone pretty much that will definitely pay the bills though you'll never get rich lol. But yeah I got up at 5am 5 days a week and was usually at work until 4-10pm. And yeah for a long bit of it I had to spend 24 hours at work every 3 days on top of that. And when I wasn't doing that I was in 8-16 hour a day shift work. And technically I was lucky since somehow 6 years in the navy the only time I went out with the boat was the 1 month I spent getting to the place where we could fix it

Health care can not be a right. You don't have a right to force someone else to provide you with something, that includes health care. Your rights can't create obligations on others. Not using the Lockean theory of natural rights.. anyhow.. maybe you use the Canadian theory of government forcing people to accept their ideas then calling it a right.. I don't know..

If you think your rights come from the pens of politicians than I am truly sorry for you.. I have rights because I am human and I need no piece of paper or goon in government to tell me what they are.

If this bill is so great, do you want it in Canada?

You can express your opinions, without name calling. It will just make people angry and attack each other on personal level.

Since I live in Canada, my Comprehensive health care plan is superior to the one in the US, but that's expected right now because it's the first time the US has had a program like this.

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings here lol. I'm simply saying you go overboard with everything you say about control and how the government decides when to put you down -.-.

So your saying I'm right except, we HAVE to use force on each other so we can have great government things like wars? ***. You SHOULD be able to opt out of paying taxes in wartime. Quakers do it. I would consider you a hero.

I pay taxes because I am afraid.. not because it's right or noble or good.. I absolutely wouldn't pay.. maybe then they would have to end the war (oh yeah Obama .. real *** peacenick.. hes like Bush the *** 3rd on war)

They don't represent me at all.. It's not logically possible to represent millions of people. It's idiotic to even say that.

If we give the Government an inch they will take a mile, sad but true. I see this as just a beginning. God only knows what else they have planned for us here in the US.

WOWOW You are the biggest hypocritical shitspewing person in this thread man, Its ok to generalize all illegal people in the US as THE HARDEST WORKING ***JOB DOING WITH A SMILE PEOPLE, but oh god forbid you mention people leeching off the system now

man you have a bucket of ***for a head, its not like tons of them commit crimes- get deported- come back- commit more crimes, granted there are probably a lot just mowin lawns or whatever "***jobs" youre talking about but THERE IS A VERY SIMPLE PROCESS TO BECOME A CITIZEN AND THEY DONT GIVE A *** ABOUT IT, so why should we give a *** about them

Haha ***. From 4:25 on.

Governments are what are imaginary. An imaginary man in the sky does does not grant your rights either. Carlin is absolutely right, they are a philosophical concept.. and the government WILL take your privileges away whenever it wants because we wont stand up and tell them no go *** off.

A-***-men Carlin. I don't know if you were trying to rip me with that.. but I agree with him almost completely. Maybe I'm not making a well formed argument.

While your at wikipedia.. type in Buck v. Bell .. theirs a supreme court case (from one of Obama's hero's) where they agree they can forcibly sterilize people in the US for the betterment of society.. oh yeah.. how nice.

See page 4 or 5.... Then continue pretending anyone takes Airbag seriously.

PS: Omg 6 more pages just while I was asleep lol

Wow guys. While this is a important subject. Maybe move this to a CNN forum rather then a video game site.

You say you have rights because you're a human. Rights are an invention of human beings. However the flaw in your statement is they're not rights by the definition as another human being(s) can just as easily take them away from you thus nullifying any of your so called rights.

The point was to show you that you have rights as long as the government deems it ok but when it suits them, they'll take them away from you without hesitation.

Talking about rights in my phil 1 class, if you believe in how our founding father believed in rights, they weren't invented, or made up. We've always had them, as autonomous beings. compare it to electricity, we didn't invent it we just discovered it and harnessed it. Same with basic human rights, we need to define them so that we become aware of them.

Actually you are incorrect, human rights are (as the founders would say) god given. It doesn't matter if anyone else recognizes them or not. You have them because you are human. As such they cannot be taken away by anyone. Its kinda what America is all about and the majority of the reason we had our revolution.

Maybe you should go back and watch your video. You are correct, but they can't take away your rights. The idea isn't entirely made up either.. but It's more than I can write here.

* A right is a philosophical concept. There are many of these such as concepts relating to metaphysics.

* The Lockean theory of Natural Rights replaced the concept of the Divine Right of Kings. The idea that G*d granted his agent on earth power that he was to dole out to the populace fell out of favor.. (oddly enough at around the same time people started to use science and stopped living in the dark ages)

* Everyone has the same rights. Everyone everywhere.

* Some people say "God granted" but those people are just religious and it actually doesn't matter either way because the person granting them is *not* other people.

* Your rights exist in a negative sense.. meaning more clearly.. you have a right to be free from my forceful actions upon you, and I have a right to be free from your forceful actions upon me. (Think of it as they repel each other, they protect you because others lack the justified authority to hurt you.)

* These rights are not clearly defined.

* You can't grant a right to anyone.

* You can't take a right away from anyone.

* You can only infringe upon a right.

* A right can't make an obligation on another. So you don't have a right to say.. food unless you own it, but you do have a right to your labor and you can trade that for food.. sounds messed up right? but.. your not able to go up to a person and say.. "Feed me, for free, because my right imposes an obligation on you to do so" .. no, it can't work that way.. and .. so that is why health care can't be a right either.

However it CAN be a privilege.. just like Carlin said.. and government can grant you as many privileges as they like but not a single right.. because they don't own them the power flows from us.. not from them.

Trying to be educational not argumentative. I've said my piece about HC.

Your class is very wrong. Rights are indeed the invention of man. Look at animals as an example. They go around aimlessly killing each other over territory, food etc. Sure it's what we call instinct for them but it was also instinct for us as well when we were first developing. We humans, being the free thinkers that we are, decided that we would rather coincide with each other and be somewhat peaceful about it than mindlessly kill one another over competition. This gave people the right to live. From there it grew into other basic rights. Where to live, how to live, what is allowed and what isn't and eventually bloomed into more civilized rights and legalities as we progressed as a people.

No He may not be an American, he's Canadian,like me, and were all under the WHO Blanket... again, we're all in debt to our eyeballs, and someone is paying for it, and more likely, its all of us, somehow...<shrugs>

You know what's funny? The only people who think this is a bad idea are nutjob Americans with doomsday scenarios in their heads who think that all poor people are that way solely because they're lazy and that this is but the first step towards a communist country where the government steals your house and gives you regulation brown shoes.

Every American here who has actually paid attention to the reality of the situation realizes that this is, in fact, a good thing that will end up saving this country a lot of money by keeping the workforce healthier and preventing a lot of needless suffering and death. It's not perfect, but it's a lot better than the bloated, irresponsible system we have now and the benefits far outweigh the negative consequences. Every poster here from a different country that actually has socialized healthcare recognizes this. It's not complicated, folks, this is good news.

im 100% sure that u was not forced into fighting ANY war, u have the option to join or not join the U.S. military. unless your over 60yrs old then i /salute u.

this HC is just one more step for the gov. to control the American ppl. soon we will be like all the other "modern country's" as many posters have already said that they are just so much better than us... being American, i have no desire to be like ANY other country's citizen.

However 1 little thing that would have made this HC "imo" a great thing, is the ole "opt-out" option. then everyone can have there cake and eat it too!!! its too bad that ppl are swayed so easy by the NEWS, and cannot think for themselves..

P.S.
Next time the United States of America saves your country's ***. i hope we dont leave and just claim it as our own. After WW2 the entire world was at our mercy, and what did we do... slapped the bad guys on the wrist,and said dont do that again!!! then we went and left every country we saved from the Nazi's and jap's.. so for all u ppl posting that the USA is not the leading MODERN force in the world, think about how it could have been..

cept 2 other people posted much better examples/dialog of what i was talking about right after my post, you simply do not understand the definition of Human rights.....


Edit: to Altimaomega I was talking comparing paying for military spending, which i may or may not support but still pay into, to the ever so slight tax increase for Health Care

Aneu~ I read back through most of this up until the post I quoted, and you havent added anything to the thread either :/ pot/kettle/black

*** bleeding hearts. You'll be singing a different tune when your taxes double. Sure you think not paying $100 a month will be worth that then

It is what it is. We do. As someone who needs help for medical bills taking care of my father it seems like a blessing. But the sad fact is we take up jobs in this field for the money. The joy of helping others is a secondary reward. This'll only drive the numbers of ready physicicians down. Waits for care will increase and the standard of care will vary. It really is a hit or miss bill, I just dont see any real improvement.

A story from my life, this is true and not something made up.



I am 24 years old, I have been independant from my parents since i was 17. I have worked since i was 15. Currently I work Part time while I work on my History Major with teaching credentials for secondary education, Full time. My wife wants to work full time but only gets to work part time at 28 hours a week. I have 2 children, my step son is 7 years old, my daughter is 2.

My wife would like to work full time but due to the fact that her company intentionally avoids full time workers in order to not have to provide medical benefits, they tend to hire more people at 20 hours which benefits them just fine. My wife also works 7 days a week in order to maintain her 28 hours because otherwise it cuts her check by 8 hours. We as a family net about 18K a year after an EIC from our Taxes. She works harder than I do as far as a job goes. I do not consider myself a "Leech" I put in what i can and from the moment i wake up till the time i go to bed, most of my time is occupied with Class/school work/work/my kids. I game as a low cost form of entertainment (13$ a month is cheaper than 13$ game of bowling for 45 minutes)

Through my wifes work they do offer a pay in form of insurance that she can opt for that is "Reasonable" the coverage is mediocre at best and to cover the family would cost $670 of her $800 a month paycheck, Which is more than our rent. Again. i guess this qualifies me as a leech because i am not wealthy and because if i DID get a full time job at sacrifice of my education and desire to become an educator; as well as limit my time with my children even further.

Last year at the beginning of october I had to go to the emergency room after holding a temperature of 104 for over 3 hours. I was diagnosed with swine flu, given a prescription for 40$ which helped with my bones and joints that ached pretty badly, i was not given the option of tamaflu even though i am asthmatic. Being Ill i was unable to eat, after the 4th day of this i stopped keeping Water down. by day 7 I had to go to the hospital again, except this time i went to urgent care. I had a friend take me who is a nurse because she could help. Due to my severe dehydration i was unable to even form a coherant sentance, or even walk in a straight linefor more then 4 steps.

At urgent care, after paying 150$ up front to be seen, and an hour wait i was questioned by a physician and given a nebulizer to see if it helped. The nebulizer caused me to caugh so badly that i got a nose bleed. a nose bleed like i had never experienced before that bled pretty profusely for around 10 minutes (I think this was due to the dehydration) After that i nearly collapsed. The staff took my blood preassure and heart rate and found my heart rate had jumped to 225 while my blood oxygen level droped to 60% of normal.

The urgent care facility called the paramedics and brought the crash cart out in case i want into cardiac arrest. I was immediately given an intravenous injection of saline and rushed to the hospital. I was diagnosed as having a sever case of Pneumonia and put in the private section of quarantine in the hospital where people had to wear a mask and body suit to come into my room, as i was also potentially scare/risk or Tuberculosis (i dunno why they thought this) I stayed in the hospital for 3 days, I was constantly on saline injection and received 3 nebulizers a day to help improve my breathing. Doctors came in once a day in the morning to check on my progress, other than that i received very little treatment other than being checked on to make sure i was alive. after day 3 of nothing but saline and oxygen i begged to leave and get home to my family because i was getting next to no real treatment at the hospital, aside from my daily assortment of pills.

I was sent home with prescripions to fill which covered me for 6 days, those cost $254 to fill, for 4 days of medication. After a week i got the bill and for my stay at the hospital+ ambulance ride (which i tried to refuse, they didnt drive fast to the hospital, infact the friend that drove me got there before them) I was charged over 17,000 dollars + doctors fees and additional fees from urgent care which brought my bill to $20,000 This has all gone onto my credit as the best i can do is make payments towards it. This bill for 3 days was more than a years salary


Now for those of you who did read this, again this is true. Explain to me where i am leeching off of society? explain to me how this is fair? Explain to me how i am exploiting the system?

I am a registered republican who did vote Democrat this presidential election. I like Johnny mac, however he was twisted to the republican party and didn't stick to his ideals which bothered me. I was worried about the last 8 years becoming 12 years.

This "Health Care Reform" is not what i want, i don't think it is what anyone wants. but it is SOMETHING, something to possibly change/alter/fix a failing system. System being the key word here, our health care is great our health care system is a disaster.

Questions i would like answered by the following posters.

Am i to be called a leech?
What in my saline injections and 5 minutes from doctors, for 3 days cost $20,000?
If the poor are abusing the system so badly and are the only perpetrators of abuse, do you believe the wealthiest people are perfectly innocent?
Why don;t we have a flat tax? why do the people who make the most money taxed a lower proportion of their overall income than even the poorest tax payers? (Under our current system you are taxed only on the ammount within the bracket, if you make 10,000,000 a year you are taxed as only your highest bracket which is around $450,000 thus they pay a lower tax% than the poorest people)




for you Tl;Dr type, please don;t comment if you didn't read. and for those who did, I thank you and apologize for the length, and grammatical errors.