String Theory: A Puppetmaster's Guide *NEW*

Do we know what the base dmg values on frames are? I feel like there was testing done a ways back but couldnt find it

It's still only one debuff removed every 30 seconds, though, unless you stack LMs, but it doesn't increase the frequency (unless that's getting buffed in the patch). And I don't think a petrified Automaton can even act to Eraser itself, can it?

nah, I don't believe so, though granted i didnt know it could remove doom either, can it? Wiki description makes it sound like it can, but repair/maint cant remove doom i dont think so I was assuming eraser couldn't either

I'll say this about the pre-update reports...

In the past, PUPs have often complained about lack of support buffs on the automaton. However, I kinda prefer the philosophy of just giving us improved attachments to better approximate an equivalency with well buffed players for purposes of atk/acc/racc/etc. And we only need to compare to player buffs; stuff like Geomancy or RDM debuffs still help puppets, and there's no reason we still can't get COR pet buffs for pet-oriented parties.

12 attachment slots does feel like a bit more of a constraint now, especially when some are near mandatory (2 Turbo Chargers, 2 Optic Fibers, and now probably both new weapon damage up attachments). We're really hurting for 16 slots at this point. But perhaps the damage up attachments plus adequate stats on the tier V attachments is enough to make PUP a more viable DD, and just requires some more thought to attachment loadouts. For instance, I could see something like the following for an updated VE/VE or VE/SS build:

1. Turbo Charger
2. Turbo Charger II
3. Optic Fiber
4. Optic Fiber II
5. [new attachment - weapon dmg up I]*
6. [new attachment - weapon dmg up II]*
7. Tension Spring V

*presumably, the new dmg+ attachments would be chosen based on frame body due to impact on WS: SS body gets ranged/wind attachments, VE/VE frame would be melee/fire attachments

Those are the baseline attachments everyone would probably start with as a default, and the remaining 5 slots get filled in based on situational need, from some combination of:
- Tension Spring IV
- Speedloader II
- Stabilizer V
- Coiler II
- Scope IV
- Barrage Turbine
- Auto-repair Kit (highest tier you can fit)
- Defensive attachments

I agree with Aerix that it currently feels largely like Master is everything and the additional automaton damage isn't enough. So But perhaps the new attachments give the puppet enough of a DPS boost that combined master+automaton damage is more on par with well buffed non-PUP DDs. Or, for full puppet focus, it's clearly nothing but an improvement - so anything that's currently viable for solo or all-pet parties is going to see a nice boost.

It's kind of a lazy solution to not fix some of the existing flaws like the stupid Inhibitors, or Doom problem... but not entirely unexpected to go the fairly straightforward attachment route, given the skeleton crew of a dev team.

Physical Damage Limit + part inc

Is anyone aware if master toneberry hate transfers to automaton?

Inhibitors are pretty mandatory for any DD Automaton, too, in my opinion. Without them, the maton's TP gain is so horribly slow it doesn't really contribute much. Of course, the issue on boss zergs still exists, but I think that's where KKK can shine because AM3 can make up for the missing Inhibitors.

All these new damage-increasing attachments might also make us exclude Coiler 2 for lack of performance without Thunder Maneuvers (outside of OD), which would also make KKK even more appealing in general.

Tension Spring V does look pretty good, but every tier is only 3% stronger than TS4 and that attachment has never been an auto-include over Attuner so far, either. At least for me, anyhow, because Armor Shatterer typically outperforms Arcuballista/Daze simply because of self-skillchaining purposes and it has a large natural Attack bonus. While meleeing on the master it has also not been very advantageous to swap into Pet WS gear for TP Bonus because it significantly reduces your personal DPS.

yeah im a bit disappointed they didnt really delve into changing the puppets actual behavior based on attachments, dmg increases aint bad but i dont see this adding too much to pup as a whole unless theres more to be said on update day.

Yeah, still doesn't fundamentally change a lot. Doesn't open up significant new uses for PUP, but in situations where you want to play PUP as a pure DPS, it's certainly beneficial.

- Tanking puppets are basically unchanged (but are still pretty useful in a lot of modern content)

- Nuking puppets still don't get around the issue of slow global recast and questionable spell selection AI, even if nukes are a little stronger (but that was never really the problem with puppet nukes to begin with)

- WHM RDM puppets are pretty much unchanged, and still mostly outclassed by trusts.

DPS puppets get a boost though, whether fighting alongside the master or through pet-only.


I already struggle with Inhibitors just because of the dumb AI. Man, if only they would change those things to be purely STP attachments and just toss the SC logic that is handled far better by the Speedloaders. With the additional strain on attachment slots, I see it as ever harder to justify using Inhibitors.

With that being the case, I tend to just try to add some Pet: STP where I can. E.g., Pitre+3 body/Varar+1 ring (which help for either master+pet DD OR pet only), and sometimes give up a master-focused piece for something purely automaton (e.g., I often use an Enmerkar Earring in my "hybrid" master+puppet TP set). Then just load up on Pet:STP gear (like Herculean pieces) when primarily focusing on the puppet

I understand your frustration, but when you asked about my attachment setups earlier in the thread I explained why I think Inhibitors aren't as bad as people think and their AI difference to Speedloaders is useful for endless maton skillchains:


They're useful for fights such as Kei where you can just leave the SCing entirely to matons and have mages MB endlessly.

If people aren't familiar with this strategy I could make a video showcasing the maton skillchains, if you guys want me to.

I would love to see this video!

Aerix, let me know when you do this, I'll be glad to help out as "the other PUP". lol

Ah... Yeah, I see that particular use.

For me, it tends to be the case that when I use a melee puppet it's in more of a mixed party also including melee players using WS (and who often want to set up a better player-player SC). In that case, Inhibitors are kinda garbage. I like Speedloaders in those situations specifically because they DO cause the puppet to hold back until the end of the SC window and not interfere with preferable player SCs (not to mention, puppet helping to further extend the SC).

Things are a bit different if using pet-only parties or solo puppet as your main source of melee DPS.

Aerix would love to see your kei video.

I'll try to make a video after the update, then. I don't think I'll be able to showcase it on Kei itself because I probably won't have any BLMs to take along to actually kill him, but I'll try to show how the SC process with different maton setups generally works on some other NM. Aside from Dancing Fullers the whole thing will be practically identical, anyway.

@Siviard I was going to just do it with my mules, but if you want to come and help, that would make things easier.

Attachments have undergone the following additions and adjustments.
New attachments have been added.
Tension Spring V
A fire-based automaton attachment. Functionality: Enhances attack
Number of Maneuvers Value
0 +18%
1 +21%
2 +24%
3 +27%
Loudspeaker V
An ice-based automaton attachment. Functionality: Enhances magic attack
Number of Maneuvers Value
0 +40
1 +50
2 +60
3 +70
Tranquilizer IV
An ice-based automaton attachment. Functionality: Enhances magic accuracy
Number of Maneuvers Value
0 +40
1 +60
2 +80
3 +110
Stabilizer V
A thunder-based automaton attachment. Functionality: Enhances accuracy
Number of Maneuvers Value
0 +40
1 +50
2 +65
3 +80
Scope IV
A wind-based automaton attachment. Functionality: Enhances ranged accuracy
Number of Maneuvers Value
0 +40
1 +50
2 +65
3 +80
Magniplug
A fire-based automaton attachment. Functionality: Enhances weapon damage
Number of Maneuvers Value
0 +5
1 +15
2 +30
3 +45
Magniplug II
A fire-based automaton attachment. Functionality: Enhances weapon damage
Number of Maneuvers Value
0 +10
1 +20
2 +35
3 +50
Arcanoclutch
An ice-based automaton attachment. Functionality: Enhances magic damage
Number of Maneuvers Value
0 +20
1 +40
2 +60
3 +80
Arcanoclutch II
An ice-based automaton attachment. Functionality: Enhances magic damage
Number of Maneuvers Value
0 +40
1 +60
2 +80
3 +120
Truesights
A wind-based automaton attachment. Functionality: Enhances ranged damage
Number of Maneuvers Value
0 +5%
1 +15%
2 +30%
3 +45%
Certain attachments have had their elemental charge (capacity) adjusted.
Attachment Pre-adjustment Post-adjustment
Tension Spring 2 1
Tension Spring II 3 2
Tension Spring III 4 3
Tension Spring IV 5 4
Loudspeaker 2 1
Loudspeaker II 3 2
Loudspeaker III 4 3
Loudspeaker IV 5 4
Tranquilizer 2 1
Tranquilizer II 3 2
Tranquilizer III 4 3
Stabilizer 2 1
Stabilizer II 3 2
Stabilizer III 4 3
Stabilizer IV 5 4
The following attachments will no longer consume maneuvers, and instead add burden in relation to the number of maneuvers.
Heat Capacitor / Heat Capacitor II / Barrage Turbine / Eraser
The Heatsink attachment will now lessen burden based on the number of maneuvers.
The attachment vendors Rararoon and Yoyoroon now have a different lineup of wares for sale.

Looking forward to the tests on new damage. +~100 "weapon damage"....

Holy ***, the Magniplugs seemed like they would be the biggest boost (don't get me wrong, they are strong), but it's actually the Truesights whose bonus is massive. Will post my findings in a few after organizing them a bit.

Have not tested it yet but maybe Magniplugs are better suited for Valoredge pet combinations from my limited testing. So both are the melee and ranged equivalent with Archanocluth in the same position for Magic.

How do the new "weapon type" attachments work?
Is it all damage source of a specific type, using the melee/ranged categories?
Doesn't matter if it's piercing, slash or blunt?


Also where do you buy these new attachments? I imagine in Nashmau. Price for each of them? I'm curious.

cant remember an exact price but nothing expensive, got em all for less than 1.5m, yes from nashmau

Magniplugs work for both melee and ranged attacks on VE/SS and it's significant (moreso for melee, though).

Yeah. That is what my tests are showing as well. Does both but better suited based on type. Magniplugs in interesting cause it benefit the TP rounds in hybrid ranged setup but dominates in pure melee while Truesights reigns supreme for full SS Automaton. Will likely forgo Migniplugs in hybrid modes for either Tension Springs, Inhibitors, Heat Capacitors, etc which may be better as a general DPS combination given our now even more constrained elemental capacity slots and automation white damage is not that significant.

All right, so I'm gonna make two posts--one for physical attachment tests and one for the BLMaton.

So as mentioned before, the bonuses from Magniplugs and Truesights are pretty fantastic. They all stack together and Magniplugs affect melee attacks significantly and to a lesser degree Ranged Attacks/ranged WS.

All screenshots only include the most consistent numbers--Shatterer damage was pretty much 100% consistent on the same mob, regardless of Tension Springs.

VE/SS tests:

- Light, Wind, Fire Maneuvers
- Dia 2, no rolls
- Full WS gear
- Base Attachments: 2x Inhibitor, 2x Turbo Charger, 2x Optic Fiber, Coiler II

Attuner + Speedloader 1+2:


Attuner + Speedloader 2 + Tension Spring 3:


Speedloader 2 + Tension Spring 5:


Attuner + Speedloader 2 + Magniplug 1+2:


Attuner + Speedloader 2 + Truesights:


Attuner + Speedloader 1+2 + Magniplug 2 + Truesights:


Attuner + Speedloader 2 + Magniplug 1+2 + Truesights:


---

- 2x Fire, 1 Wind Maneuver, rest same as above

Attuner + Speedloader 1+2 (basically preupdate setup):


Attuner + Speedloader 2 + Magniplug 1+2 + Truesights:



As you can see, huge improvements to melee base damage and very nice bonuses to WS damage. I'll have to test an OD zerg later today, too.

----------------------

VE/VE tests:

- Light, Wind, Fire Maneuvers
- Dia 2, no rolls
- Standard Taeon DA/DT gear for TP speed, but I only screenshotted the most average WS numbers
- Base Attachments: 2x Inhibitor, 2x Turbo Charger, 2x Optic Fiber, Coiler II, Coiler I

Attuner + Speedloader 1+2:


Attuner + Speedloader 1 + Tension Spring 5 (Shredder didn't get a MA proc):


Attuner + Tension Spring 3 + Magniplug 1+2:


The WS results here are much less impressive, unfortunately, but regular melee swings have gotten a pretty huge boost. I haven't tested the other WSs yet or optimized for BC, so maybe there's more to it that I haven't tested.

Can't wait to see tests on magic damage, to see if automaton is finally suitable for that.

Too bad that:
1) Magic damage is irrelevant in current game meta, it's too late now lol
2) Even if damage is finally enough (without Ice Maker) you still have the issue with the crappy automaton mage AI


I dunno. These changes are nice and we can't complain, but given what other jobs received so far, it's clear all of us likely expected a bit more. Or rather than "more", something different?
Was pretty clear it would've been "only" a bunch of new attachments from when they announced it though. Our fault for expecting more than that.

BLM Testing

So BLM was interesting and I found a hidden effect that doesn't seem to be well-known so far (or at least remains unmentioned on BGwiki):

Amplifiers add a huge amount of Fast Cast to Automatons even for regular nukes that aren't attempted Magic Bursts. Both Amplifiers together add somewhere around 60-80% FC from eyeballing.

Anyway, here are the tests:

- my nuking set isn't perfect (no Udug Jacket or max augmented MAB Herc), so Attachment results may vary with better gear
- always tested with triple Ice Maneuver on a neutral day
- Base Attachments: Ice Maker, Optic Fiber 1+2

With Amplifier 1+2

Loudspeaker 5:


Loudspeaker 2 + Arcanoclutch 2 + Arcanoclutch 1:


Loudspeaker 3 + Arcanoclutch 2:


Loudspeaker 4 + Loudspeaker 1:


Loudspeaker 4 + Arcanoclutch 1:


----------------------

Without Amplifiers (very slow casting speed)

Loudspeaker 5 + Loudspeaker 4 + Loudspeaker 1:


Loudspeaker 5 + Loudspeaker 4 + Arcanoclutch 1:


Loudspeaker 4 + Loudspeaker 3 + Loudspeaker 2 + Arcanoclutch 1:


Loudspeaker 4 + Loudspeaker 3 + Loudspeaker 1 + Arcanoclutch 2:


Loudspeaker 4 + Loudspeaker 3 + Arcanoclutch 2 + Arcanoclutch 1:


So yeah, looks like double Amplifiers are pretty much a necessity just because of the passive FC bonus, even if it costs a very significant amount of damage. Nukes are so very, very slow without them that most mobs would likely already be dead by the time the nuke even lands. <.<

Also, for the record, I think that Ice Maker is a must-have as well, as even with only 1 Ice Manvuer it noticeably outperforms other attachment setups at 3 maneuvers. Although that's only for regular nukes. MBs might be different as Amplifiers are pretty strong--it would be great if someone could test that at some point.

I can say my experience is the opposite from the bold part.
Granted it's been a long time ago so something might have been ninja-tweaked.

Back when I was trying to cap JP on my PUP and I joined multiple mage-setup PTs it was pretty clear when Amplifiers procced (the spell was getting cast really really fast, pretty close to what an 80% FC spell is on my mages) whereas when the amplifiers didn't proc, spell was being cast at what seemed to be a pretty close to normal speed. Maybe there is a small FC effect for "normal" spells, but even if there is, it's nowhere close to the amount of FC you get when the Amplifiers proc.

The problem I was having is that amplifiers require a certain amount of seconds from when the SC is "activated" for amplifiers to notice there's a SC going on. Probably it's about lag between client and server. Sometimes if you deployed too fast, the Automaton couldn't sense the SC going on, and would attempt to cast a spell without amplifiers, resulting in a spell being cast very slowly.

I think other people reported this problem as well in this thread long time ago. Not sure if this is still an issue, but it sure was during those times.




Anyway about magic damage, I wonder what the best approach would be, even with the new attachments.
The ones I can think of:
1) Full magic damage attachments, Macc on gear (pet macc weapon, pet macc gear like Tali'ah)
2) Full Magic accuracy attachments, Mab on gear (there's a couple of mab weapons, gear-wise it's mostly aug stuff aside from a couple of AF/Relic +3 pieces)
3) Hybrid, a bit of everything, picking the best in slot accordingly

Not sure what would perform better.
Of course I'm interested in damage without Ice Maker. Ice Maker still removes the maneuver, it's not one of those who got fixed.
So it means eventually reaching the burden cap, or having to use ADD trick which is annoying for other reasons and lets you waste a lot of JA delays.

damage without ice maker is still pretty pitiful, gear set wise i think itd be better to just gear around macc, as theres far more of that available than mab unless you move into augmented herc, and ugh at doing that for something i seldom use.

I mean, it's very easy to confirm my findings if you just go outside of Adoulin and nuke something with and without Amplifiers. The difference between the cast speeds is impossible to miss. But I do recall having extremely slow nukes even with Amplifiers in the past, so perhaps SE ninja-buffed them in this patch (or simply fixed them).

And as mentioned, Ice Maker outperforms any other 3 Ice Maneuver attachment setup even at only 1 maneuver for regular nukes. A triple Ice Maneuver MB with Amplifiers might be better than a 1 maneuver MB with Ice Maker+Amplifiers, but someone other than me would have to test that.

As for MAB/MAcc setups, I do think Xiucoatl is BiS simply because it adds so much MAcc, whereas the best MAB weapon we have is just Ohrmazd with a perfect +25 MAB augment. That just leaves head/hands as questionable slots. I'd say perfect Herculean are BiS if you always have Marine Stewpot active when nuking (especially when MBing due to the MAcc bonus), but otherwise Rawhide Mask and Naga Tekko offer a solid MAB/MAcc combo for general nuking purposes.

Awesome data postings Aerix!

This work day is moving at a glacial pace. Can’t wait to get home and give these new setups a spin.