Dev Tracker - Discussion

A V15 or V20 is still a DPS check. If they fail it really hard, they know they aren't ready and they got nothing out of trying. They can go down in difficulty or gear up more.

I don't think this is really true. You don't believe there are any new players, but Phoenix has had quite a bit of activity and I doubt it's the only server like that.

Anyone who didn't have V15 access at the time Sortie came out or pushed into endgame after Sortie release would have done Sortie before Odyssey. It's easier, the upgrades come faster, and unless you're talking R25+ it's mostly better. So, any new player and anyone who hadn't done Odyssey at the time Sortie dropped is likely to have suitable gear for V15+ before even stepping into Odyssey.

I'm not the one saying it sincerely, the "ffxi is dying" doom and gloom crowd are saying it

Then they can roflstomp the V0/5/10/15's and be at V20 by the end of the month instead of spending the next six months sitting on their hands crying about how sheol sucks and Gaol needs to be fixed, while theyre doing their hour long daily 6 month prime grind in Sortie and 8 hours a week in Limbus.

Perfectly valid point. But, much like Limbus, small changes could fix the perception. You don't need to change the content to handout tier to convince people it's worth it: if they can just go in, fight Bumba V15~20, and see that they're progressing they're much more likely to continue.

Why stop there.

Just remove the pointless auras, and the pointless non-dispellable attack buffs and all the rest.

Lower barrier to entry, right. Pointless grind, right.

Someone was saying they could not solo clear T3 V0, which I believe. Those fights aren't easy, and trusts wipe very quickly.

If you think allowing plebs to skip to V15 is going to magically move the needle on V25 completion you're fully delulu.

Just remove the job requirements. Keep the rest of the mechanics.

Let people throw 3 KIs with the same party structure. v25 still won't be easy for most.

ex. Ongo: You could do RUN,BLM,SCH,BRD,COR,GEO for all 3 KIs if you want.

Just remove V25. V20 clear gets you R30. Done.

Oh the salt will be glorious.

What, does only removing V0-V10 work? Pointless grind, remember.

You don't have to immediately go to lets just hand it out.

Always the fatalists

Change one thing and *** it just make it log in points

"It'd be great if this thing sucked less"

"*** welfare queen and your handouts for everything"

That ruins it for the people looking for a challenge though. A lot of the fights will become trivial, if not all of them, with a decent group.

I mean first it's "the challenge is the point" then it's "why should anyone have to work their way up to v15+".

Pick a lane already.

So yeah, if we're abolishing V0-V15, then let's just abolish V25.

I agree, the fun and challenge of the content was the puzzle of it all... the problem solving.

"We cant use the best jobs for everything... we have to split it into 2 fights, so we cant use this support here, in order to give the other KI a fighting chance... so we have to use an alternative."

That's what made alot of non traditional meta jobs relevant again.

Literally in your example Taint, I'd argue that if you could do 3 KI's of the same jobs back to back... No one would even use BLM. They'd let the SCH do all the damage, and bring a RDM to control adds and backup nuke. Slow and steady, abusing the helix dot in all 3 KI's to offset the regen.
If my guess is accurate (not that we'd ever know though), it'd be pretty sad considering how sidelined BLM has been. It's refreshing to even have BLM be a standard/staple for an important fight, same for RNG with Arebati, so on and so forth.

The other aspect of it, is the system as it was set up FORCED players to adapt and level/gear new jobs. It made stronger, more well rounded players as a result. Learning new jobs has been some of the most enjoyable part of the game, because without the push to do so, it's extremely easy to just stay in your comfort zone.

Fundamentally I think the locked jobs contributes massively to why I believe Odyssey is the best content they made in the game.

And to those who argue no one goes back and helps others do it once they're done... I mean... Maybe on your server? On Asura I've helped plenty of people re-do fights. The fights are fun. And I dont just speak for myself as I know plenty of others who've gone and helped others via shout/LS/or friends just asking. If people don't find them fun enough to help others maybe its a community thing?

Lets presume this gets implemented, there is literally not a god damn thing thats preventing the people who "are looking for a challenge" from either:
A: Self-Imposing a 1 KI limit
B: Applying a "no reusing jobs" limit

I mean... While you're not wrong, almost no one in the game would do that simply for the self imposed challenge. There's a fraction of a fraction of 1% of players who do that kind of stuff to begin with. That's just wishful thinking imho.

And I'm saying this as One of those very players... I've 2 manned Unafraid of the Dark... I've 1 KI'd Arebati. We did so with the express intent of finding out "is this possible" and doing so was fun and forced us to execute in a very tight window.. but again, no one's really doing this.

Then they arent looking for a challenge.
Theyre looking for an excuse:
"welllllllll we coulda done it, but now that the shackles are off, were not gonna fight with them on"

Yeah that is what would happen. I'm expressly against Taint's idea to "Solve" the "Problem" of odyssey, not that there is one to begin with

Do you have any idea how insufferable I would be about telling people I cleared v25, like when grandpa walked uphill both ways to school? It would become my entire identity.

One thing I've always kind of wished about Sheol Gaol is that they allowed subjob usage, but restricted it in the same way as main jobs.

i.e. No one in the party can sub the same thing / if you used a sub in one fight, you can't use it as a sub in the next either.

I have no idea how much harder that'd be to code, but having had fun with no sub jobs as a limitation, it'd be cool to see people innovate on which subs to use for which jobs, in a scenario where you have to pick and choose.

Would be even more of a headache for entry requirement/group to coordinate though lmao

There's very little utility that support jobs even offer to begin with. You'd eventually run out of support jobs to use, because some of them are functionally useless as a support job. Don't know how much fun it would be, wouldn't really have the same effect because some jobs aren't meant to be subbed.

BST and PUP are dead in the water as subs.
GEO, SMN and BRD are extremely limited and impractical
The only decent subs are the mage and tank jobs
You might save WHM sub for GEO or RDM to heal/-na
It doesn't really matter what DD job subs what, Hasso for WAR if 2h
Maybe DRG on your RNG and let him go HAM on Arebati without fear of stealing hate
DNC for COR to give it an offhand weapon and Samba
NIN for BRD to use TP bonus offhand
You get one extra Elemental Seal as BLM, for Burn on Ongo I suppose
Don't see too many strategic possibilities, besides turning your RDM or GEO into a main healer for specific setups.

Is anyone who plays non-meta jobs happy just because those jobs get used in Odyssey, though? We use BLU/BST/SMN and maybe even PUP for v25's and I don't know anyone who likes those jobs that thinks being used as a one-trick pony in Odyssey is satisfying. Black mage might be the lone exception because it's so central to Ongo and even the SC/MB T1/T2's.

I think you're on point with the rest as far as forcing players to be more well-rounded, and Odyssey being interesting content, but it's not really helped non-meta jobs significantly.

Odyssey created the heaviest usage of BST to date via Purulent Ooze. Zero chance that job ever gets changed to if not for Odyssey cheese RP. (Decide for yourself if that's actually a compliment)

I have a good idea, yes.

It shall be glorious.

I'm still riding the "I cleared CoP before the first set of nerfs and let's not even talk about removing the level caps"

People are conflating the ideas of raising the floor with lowering the ceiling. Making the game more accessible for new, returning or even lower skilled players doesn't always mean nerfing the higher difficulty content.


The reason why V0-V15 is being targeted is because it's mostly redundant. Is there any other difference between a V5 and V10 besides the stat scaling? Then more scaling and fetters at V15? I only felt these differences because I solo'd through some of the lower tier NMs so it makes sense in that regard, but there's no real distinction in group play. 4 levels of intermediate seems excessive, but maybe it's just me...

Not only is it redundant, but it has a real time gate. 3k segments * 17 NMs * 4 tiers = 204k segments. Amp isn't worth using for low tier clears, RP return is pitiful to convert back. Best case, if you start out with 12k seg runs out the gate and don't miss any moglophones, maybe you can do it in 2 weeks.

If you have a group that's already got Sortie gear and is considering Odyssey, I don't really think that spending 2-3 weeks fighting content that doesn't fight back for no reward is going to incentivize them. Especially when you consider the amount of FUD about Odyssey being too hard or impossible. Why grind all that out if you don't even know if you can tackle V20-25s?

On the other hand, if the group can go in and try the difficult fight with zero stakes, they're probably much more likely to continue with it and retry. I know it's not that hard to find someone to enter you, but that still adds some stake (you have to ask for someone else's time on something you're completely new to and very well might fail).

That sounds like gate keeping and elitism to me.

Keep the difficult stuff, so the elites can lord over the commoners with their "high skill". Remove the lower tier stuff, so the commoners can run into a brick wall sooner.

Everyone has access to YT and can look at T3/T4 V25 videos if they want to see how involved it is.

Anyone not in turtle gear with super high mdb gets smacked by fetters. One shot TP moves if you pull hate at the wrong time as a DD. It's all there, nothing secret about it.

Most people don't bother because R30 is not such a strong carrot to be worth the ridiculousness of the difficulty ramp up at V25. Even nyame is great at R25 and hardly any reason other than lordship over others to R30 it. DDs also now have two non-Nyame options with JSE that surpass even R30 Nyame.

I mean it's fine if that's what it is - is as common as a goblin in XI - but let's not pretend.

I don't really care if Gaol had zero segment cost. It would change nothing.

I'm sorry but I refuse to believe there are MULTIPLE groups out there that are running around with Emp+3 and a stage 4 prime (this is the baseline for Sortie gear, right?) and Limbus armor that have not ONE person within said groups with access to carry up a couple vengeance levels and the entirety of the group never touched Sheol (which is probably one of the best gil/hr money makers in the game, so its unlikely based on this reason as well) either so they have to be stingy with their segs for the harder fights.

That argument only works if you assume there aren't and won't be any new players forming groups. You can throw bias all you want, but games aren't designed on the basis of not having new players. SE is obviously building a progression path for them, so FFXI isn't an exception.

Do you really think people are going to start doing V5 or V10 odysseys before they get their Emp+3? Sortie comes before Odyssey in the progression now, even if prior players did Odyssey before Sortie was released.

If you've spent 3-6 months grinding Sortie likely you have more than enough segs to get help with or box your way to T3 V15 clears.

Done a fair amount myself with some preparation.

Some are easier than others, also less important unless you want to do V25 climbs.

As gear creep keeps on creeping, the melee ones get easier.

For a mythical new player there is a 45 day lockout for Gaol anyway, so Sortie is all there is. Plenty of time to get a couple +3s.

I didnt enter Odyssey for the first time until after i had full +3 emp on several jobs.

Ive now got v20 clears, but at the time I had just come back from a multi year break and didnt even know Odyssey existed, and sortie was just released, so dove into the brand new content.

im probably not a good use case, but there are probably other people who came back after long breaks and missed Odyssey, its not just new players.

I totally forgot that we had to do V5/10 clears. Yeah, you should be able to skip directly to V15.

Also they should throw us a bone and give us a free daily Moglophone II. Hell, they should be cheaper too. Weren't Salvage permits 3k assault points originally? People wouldn't be hesitant to go back and help if it was practically free to do so.