Dev Tracker - Discussion

The FFXI team has very limited resources, they can't constantly rebalance and they obviously feel(as I do) that giving a significant increase to player power will be long term detrimental. So, they likely feel they are not able to release easy content with rapid rewards like many players would prefer. That leaves limited options; a Master Trial allows people who are already maxed out to play the game and overcome yet another challenge without altering the balance for the challenges that already exist.

They are clearly wrong, because ffxi players do not seem to enjoy being challenged or completing a challenge for the sake of doing so. But, what's the better solution? Even if you don't personally agree that power creep would be bad, SE obviously does, so what can they do with that in mind?

I feel like this is a really sloppy argument. There are reasons and motivations behind everything, even if they're as simple as "I'm happy repeating what I'm doing and don't need to experience anything else".

They have spent a unique amount of time understanding how the vehicles work and feel a sense of personal satisfaction if they acquire a rare car or get a car working that previously wouldn't. It's still a motivation, even if it's not one that applies to everyone.

You don't run on the treadmill because you like running. You run to get the carrot.

The most basic concept.

FF11 has always been updated with completely new endgame content, but this is difficult and costly to create from scratch. So they think they can't update the game now.

With someone sensible in charge they would just add to the content that already exists. This game would be so easy to update at minimal cost in this way.

Add +1 gear to all high tier battlefields, +1 malig gear etc If they did this, it would be easy to add and all HTBF would immediately become congested with so many doing it.

Add new monsters and areas to omen.

Add new pets to raise in the mog garden, new plants to grow, add things worth obtaining from mog gardening that are not useful to rmt, add rare spawn hnm to Dynamis that drop really good gear (nightmare nidhogg with 119 hnm gear for example), add rare drops to stuff. Add 119 assaults with 119 gear as rewards, same for salvage. They could even make 119 Abyssea, with all the drops scaled up.

Change reives up in some way.

FFXI has so much content and so many assets that it should be incredibly simple to update the game without having to make brand new content.

They hate updating content, like it has to be kept as it was for some unknown reason.

Obviously this is how many FFXI players think, but it's self-defeating logic and plays into addiction and dopamine management. If the gameplay isn't enjoyable to you, you shouldn't be spending hundreds of hours on it. If the only enjoyment you get is when a new shiny drops into your inventory, you have severely disregulated dopamine and you're wasting your life doing nothing for short flashes of happiness.. like a heroin addict.

If you don't enjoy the game, and you only enjoy the rewards, you are objectively making extremely poor use of your time.

Heroin addict is apt, You don't want to keep sucking *** for heroine but you just can't stop. It's not a choice anymore.

And as sunk cost states, you've sunk 100,000 hours into it, you can't stop now.

I guess I am disagreeing on the fundamental concept of why do something and motivation, and this is not restricted to XI.

If you only run on a treadmill to get the carrot you will never get, you will get tired of running and get off because you never get the carrot. Likely never get on again either.

If you instead get on the treadmill because you really like running, guess what, you will want to do it again.

Do something for what it is and because you enjoy doing it, not what you get out of it.

Rather than lack of rewards, the master trials are so poorly attempted maybe because they are not enjoyable.

If there was a KC+1 at the end of Oathsworn, They'd be doing it. No matter how bad it's made, no matter how *** it is.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I see motivation the same way. I'm just interpreting player motivation differently.

You see Master Trials as fundamentally different enough in experience so as to be not enjoyable, while Sortie is enjoyable. Okay, simple enough. You don't want to do Master Trials because something about them (fighting one enemy? fighting a very difficult fight? just the sweaty nature) isn't fun.

I see them as just another fight, not meaningfully different than Odyssey. So, when I see that so few people want to fight them.. I assume they are not enjoying 'running on the treadmill', and the lack of carrot is demotivating them.

Matter of interpretation, and only individuals can answer which way they personally feel.

I am sure if there was a KC+1 as a master trial reward, a certain percentage of players would be spamming it. Probably writing bots to do it for them while afk too.

A certain other percentage would still not do it because they do not like master trials.

Different people motivated by different things. Chasing the carrot is a pointless goal for me, that's not what I get out of it.

Hence rewards/no rewards makes no difference, I would still not do master trials the same way I do not do Odyssey climbs.

There is no need to explain or otherwise rationalise why someone likes or dislikes something. They just do.

There is a need, in the context of criticizing development choices. If 90% of endgame players need a prize to do content, then releasing MTs is entirely pointless and a waste of developer resources[seems to be the case]. If only 10% of endgame players need that prize, then it's not. If the problem is that the MT itself is less fun than other content(and I still don't see how a MT is different from a HTBC or Ody fight besides difficulty/reward), then developers need to understand why it isn't fun.

FWIW, I had fun with every Master Trial except the latest. I wasn't the first person to clear any of them, some were weeks or months behind, and it was still satisfying to find ways to handle each problem and eventually clear them. The only reason I haven't committed to Oathsworn Blade is because I don't find Sortie fun and feel it is likely to be impossible without primes. I'm not willing to grind for X months to build weapons just to try a strategy that may or may not work. I was willing to grind relic/emps for earlier ones, but primes are too far. Still fun to read Shiraj's thread and theorycraft, I just can't commit to grinding Sortie solely to be able to participate. So, I guess I'm biased in that I see a bunch of people who voluntarily grind out Sortie but don't want to use the weapons for what they're made for.

Have you considered that people that make primes do it because they want to make primes and not so they can "use them for what they're made for"?

Using primes is super fun. Omgwtf just straight up 99s look at that thing go.

Does it let you do something you couldn't do before? No not really, it's just fun using them and roflstomping stuff.

I have not and would never make a weapon just to do master trials, that to me is beyond pointless.

What the developers think a weapon is "for" is irrelevant to me, they barely know their own game.

I would be far more interested in master trials if there was something useful from them.
For example. I'd like a multi-job cape with: INT+30 mACC+20 MAB+10 mDMG+20 {sird+10/PDT-10/DT-5/idk, something}.

The reward doesn't have to be broken good, it could just reduce stupid gear bloat.
It could also have an actual upgrade item like say a ring with idk SIRD+20? on it. opening up a ton of new options in other slots.

I don't think they're boring, just a waste of time when i still have so many other jobs I can be working on.

Totally agree. Even Adamantite body is extremely niche but would rather it was in a challenging fight that a boring spam junk fight.

The main point of everything in this game is to acquire more power for the job(s) you're playing. Generally that leads to the job being more enjoyable to play (because you know how bad it was before) and being able to do more content with fewer people that are forced to play jobs they don't want to play in order to get it done. You know, fun/freedom. Ease might be the way you'd interpret it.

I can understand how some people would say that is casual and they have a different motivation for playing. But for people like me, Master Trials are unpleasant work with no lasting cookie. It's me asking, 'who voluntarily wants to be trauma bonded with me?' And that's icky.

The exploratory portion of figuring out new fights still appeals to me and I enjoy doing things off meta IF I'm playing with people who accept that kind of behavior. But if there is something to be done and everyone is all business, then lets agree to a plan and do it. To me, there is no business involved in MTs, you do the work on jobs you don't want to play in ways you don't want to do and then at the end, regardless of outcome there is no tangible reward. I could be playing all sorts of other games if the objective was the amazing experience of beating a thing instead of bragging rights, and certainly not on a 20 year old MMO that handles like a boat. And not the fun kinds of boats.

I'm definitely in the small minority of players who willingly do Master Trials because they're fun and I enjoy a challenge. I'd happily do content for 0 reward if I can play with friends and figure weird/funky strats out, it's just fun. Nothing beats blind progression in fights for me so I find these great; love it for Master trials in XI and Ultimates in XIV.

It definitely feels like XI players are the wrong demographic for MTs though, seems most players feel the need for a reward to incentivise them to do content which I still find odd personally, but oh well.

I'm personally in the camp of "I just want to be doing more content than just 1-2 pieces a day" so suggestions like below are more what I want.

Unfortunately being sensible is antithetical to their plans.

So simple to +5 level every battlefield, call it VVD +1 every htmb item with +1 stat and be set for 2 years. Then do it again. VVVD.

They just aren't interested in keeping you interested.

I could be wrong, but I've always thought the reason they don't update content isn't because of some misguided principle about historical accuracy but rather:
-It's more work than people think to add new bosses/areas to existing content
-If you change the existing content, it eliminates that content from being experienced by the original intended audience (reive, besieged, campaign, etc)
-If you're going to put development time in anyway, why not making something new rather than just re-hashing the old?

I don't think making ilvl versions of every piece of content we've ever had is the solution, for the above reasons. Maybe SE shares my reasoning, maybe they have their own, regardless though I think "just slap some high level mobs in old content" is lazy and minimizes the level of effort required.

Also: if you give new gear (ambu+3, malig+1, etc.) then you're doing exactly what Thorny said: escalating the gear creep. This will invalidate some other gear while also changing the difficulty level of all the content in the game relative to how it is now.

It's really easy to just throw out random ideas, it's much more difficult to thoroughly consider the implications of all of it and balance how much time it would take to release with how much it would get played and by who.

Make ilvl 145 versions and call the tier 'Impossible to Gauge'. Make them need ML40 and R30 gear to clear.

In 10 years. Not immediately. You don't give them the whole kilo they'll OD and stop buying. Addicts just need a little bit more at a time.

Juuuuuuuust enough to keep the lizard brain buzzing.

What level do people consider D and VD to be? 122 and 125 I guess?
So add 135 now and 145 in 2 years.

What the *** dumbass analogy is this??

I run on the treadmill because I dont want to be fat.

Because you don't want to be fat or because you don't want to be even more shunned by society?

The +1 would add +5 accuracy and require synergy with the original item. So many people, myself included, would be all in.

Honestly, they have a major asset they could have/should have reused for Emp119, and that’s Abyssea. They could have reused most of those assets for the mobs, zones, etc. They could have created ML exp camps, slowly released the zones over 1-1.5 years. Have different objectives like Sortie.Farm pops over several trips.

Escha/Reisenjima is Abyssea.

As stated escha is ilvl abyssea, and also sea/sky, their ilvl options are mostly down to older instances, which there are plenty to choose from there, granted they could repurpose plenty of old sky/sea zones for ML too

Meeble Burrows would be epic, all the same missions just higher level mobs and/or more mobs to balance difficulty.

SE said it is but it doesn’t feel like it to me. I liked the Atma system. Some atma was a little overpowered but I think there is a right way to do it.

Where did they even say that? I don't recall them saying it and honestly they aren't 100% the same.