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By clearlyamule 2018-01-12 12:24:19
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Not all time is equal even ig. I'd definitely rather make a good probably 50% less gil/hr if I could literally do it while watching tv or doing something else I'd be doing anyways compared to something I'd actually have to pay attention to and coordinate with others. Basically like free time
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-01-12 12:28:16
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Fenrir.Kaldaek said: »
I am unsure of your argument. I also think you can get your point across in less sentences.

You were attempting to judge something purely by effort : reward ratio. Reward being defined as the gil value obtained, effort being defined as the time cost.

I then used your own definitions and showed how utterly insane your statement was.

Now if someone doesn't like something because it doesn't entertain them, then that's a perfectly valid and understandable thing and they shouldn't participate in that event. By making the currency tradable SE specifically catered to those individuals so they wouldn't be locked forever out of the gear. Saying you don't like an event in a video game because it doesn't provide you enough in-game currency is *** stupid.

Personally I enjoy actually doing the event, working as a team towards a common goal, and ensuring everyone has fun doing so. The reward will happen naturally over time, no need to rush and "be first!!1010101".
 Fenrir.Kaldaek
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By Fenrir.Kaldaek 2018-01-12 12:31:54
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Asura.Saevel said: »
*
Asura.Saevel said: »
Fenrir.Kaldaek said: »
I am unsure of your argument. I also think you can get your point across in less sentences.

You were attempting to judge something purely by effort : reward ratio. Reward being defined as the gil value obtained, effort being defined as the time cost.

I then used your own definitions and showed how utterly insane your statement was.

Now if someone doesn't like something because it doesn't entertain them, then that's a perfectly valid and understandable thing and they shouldn't participate in that event. By making the currency tradable SE specifically catered to those individuals so they wouldn't be locked forever out of the gear. Saying you don't like an event in a video game because it doesn't provide you enough in-game currency is *** stupid.

Personally I enjoy actually doing the event, working as a team towards a common goal, and ensuring everyone has fun doing so. The reward will happen naturally over time, no need to rush and "be first!!1010101".

No. I am merely investing my time vs reward into reward that CANNOT be obtained by any other methods. I never said the obtainable reward is less valued to me. In fact, the reward being the gear (not currency) I would argue is more valuable to me. As I am spending in game currency; and you're relinquishing your time.

I even provided you an example..
 Bahamut.Agerine
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By Bahamut.Agerine 2018-01-12 12:40:48
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This ***got hilarious fast.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-01-12 12:41:06
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Thankfully I've started to quote people.

Quote:
I don't think the flame is over "instant gratification". It's more about economical efficiency.

In response to

Quote:
So you want to just get the reward with minimal effort and have instant gratification? That's not a bad thing, but it needs to be stated and understood as the perspective. Why not too long ago the exact same posters complaining were complaining the game was "too easy" and gear was too freely available. They wanted the days of 72hr timed world HNM spawns back with exclusive loot.

This is just a recreation of the original Dynamis with a slightly different loot upgrade system. As content it's pretty fun, just enough skill requirement to make people pay attention but not some some of "the best onry" level requirements to make it prohibitive. I suspect SE is being conservative with the relic upgrade materials to prevent people from finishing all their upgrades in a few weeks and complaining there is nothing left to do. This event takes the same play time then Omen only concentrated rather then spread out, although many groups do Omen twice a week and burn through 3~4 tags at a time so then it's really no different.

Which was in response to

Quote:
This is true. Not because game rules people. I feel the developers adjusted the game to roll with the age increase of the player base.

When I started playing i was in high school. Now i'm 31 with 4 children and a home to provide for.

Damned if i'm wasting my precious ffxi time on this event. Unlock the job and buy the +3 from the AH. The end.
Fenrir.Kaldaek said: »
No.

The gear and currency are interchangeable as you can convert currency into gear, this gives gear a gil value which then gives it a time value.

Again, if you don't enjoy the content then SE specifically allows you to buy the currency to get the gear. Criticizing them on not being "time to gil" efficient insanely stupid. And yes the people you were siding with said that, yes you supported them saying that.

Personally I think the entire idea of "time to currency ratio" inside a game is *** stupid. It's a game, you play to be entertained.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-01-12 12:42:33
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Nah, enjoyment has value.

Lazily farming old dynamis or salvage while watching your favorite show on netflix and leisurely chatting with your linkshell is enjoyable for some.

Paying close attention to an event that can wipe you after organizing a time to do it is enjoyable for others.

Generally, one would expect the rewards from the latter to be much higher, making it a clearly more valuable choice for most (you get to play as a team and you get more rewards out of it, awesome!).

However, with the rewards the way they are, people realize they can make the same progress while having a more relaxed and enjoyable experience. You can argue until your face turns blue, but it's pretty clear from any forum you look at that participation in new dynamis is low. There's a reason for it, just take the blinders off.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-01-12 12:44:35
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Saevel you might be by yourself in the belief that new dynamis is "fun". Omen is fun. Its engaging. You complete objectives, bosses have tp moves that are potential wipe-fest. It's a good event and I've never complained about the content of omen outside of how lazily Ou was thrown together (the last 10/20% is very fun concept), and his drop pool. The body drop rate is unfun.

What about dynamis D is actually fun? The entire events is

Kill fodder
don't die to mijin gakures
hey look there's aurix
*30 kills later*
There's a sch handshard
kill midboss
kill aurix again
*****if you have time beat zone boss*****

There is no game inside the game. There's nothing to it besides engage/kill/repeat. Having something to do and claiming its "fun" is quite a different thing. I don't mind doing dynamis with my ls because it's something we do together, but I don't join any shout groups, because its not really something fun to do with my time.
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 Fenrir.Kaldaek
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By Fenrir.Kaldaek 2018-01-12 12:47:11
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Asura.Saevel said: »
So you want to just get the reward with minimal effort and have instant gratification? That's not a bad thing, but it needs to be stated and understood as the perspective.

I'm arguing with you because you believe the argument is formed upon an opinion we are searching for instant gratification. That sir/mam; is your opinion.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-01-12 12:48:33
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
However, with the rewards the way they are, people realize they can make the same progress while having a more relaxed and enjoyable experience. You can argue until your face turns blue, but it's pretty clear from any forum you look at that participation in new dynamis is low. There's a reason for it, just take the blinders off.


Then why do we have people clamoring to be in our Dynamis group. Every time we start to organize we got new people sending tells "can I come / join".

There is plenty of desire to do it, there is very few people wanting to put in the effort of organizing an effective team. What few people do organize generally do so in a shitty way.

Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Lazily farming old dynamis or salvage while watching your favorite show on netflix and leisurely chatting with your linkshell is enjoyable for some.

This is not playing the game.

Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Nah, enjoyment has value.

Not according to your original statement where you based value entirely off the time to gil ratio, while ignoring the biggest value item present.

I even made the following statement which you just agreed to.

Quote:
I think the bellyaching is because people with bot armies can't merc it or use it for gil, which is the source of their entertainment now. We play games to have fun and entertain ourselves, not to boast about gil farming. Form a team with a long term goal of getting people what they need, come up with a strategy, then execute the strategy and have fun while doing it.
 Fenrir.Kaldaek
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By Fenrir.Kaldaek 2018-01-12 12:50:31
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Then why do we have people clamoring to be in our Dynamis group. Every time we start to organize we got new people sending tells "can I come / join".

Make sure you post this on your application. It's delightful.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-01-12 12:53:38
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Fenrir.Kaldaek said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
So you want to just get the reward with minimal effort and have instant gratification? That's not a bad thing, but it needs to be stated and understood as the perspective.

I'm arguing with you because you believe the argument is formed upon an opinion we are searching for instant gratification. That sir/mam; is your opinion.

You, and others, have already agreed to the statement you want fast reword for minimal effort. Hell one just agreed that he would prefer it to be botting / effortless farming.

I said earlier, you can't define yourself right. And I know lots of people that greatly enjoy this event.

Here is a big hint for those who participate on these forums, you are generally viewed as the peanut gallery / circus of the game. The opinions here are generally held by the vocal minority who can't be bothered to waste time trolling the clowns. I just happen to enjoy messing with people and pointing out how dumb they are while I'm waiting for something more important to happen. 100 Clowns gathering in one place doesn't suggest that the majority of people prefer being clowns.

Now I expect a mod to be along shortly cause this been going on for a few hours.
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2018-01-12 12:55:20
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I figure Dyna-missed Opportuni-D was tailored more to behave like an additional Gain XP RoE/ Ambuscade than is being assumed in this discussion.

Like Gain XP RoE it is gated by time.
Like Gain XP RoE it is really easy. I mean, there are more efficient ways to do this or that, but a larger than planned pull is solved by pulling with an automaton, sleepga, lullaby or any number of BLU spells.

Difference between it and Gain XP RoE is that it requires more toons and basic coordination. In this way it is like Ambuscade.

So, using those as guidelines, and what Dynamis was historically (the copy/paste is strong in this event), the product isn't surprising even if it is disappointing.

It is just another thing to do casually after maxing Ambuscade/between Gain XP RoEs/in place of Omen. But it would be last in that list due to the issues already provided, so it doesn't replace any of the former items nor relieve congestion in any of those other areas.
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 Fenrir.Richybear
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By Fenrir.Richybear 2018-01-12 12:56:12
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HEYO JUST POPPING IN TO SAY I HOPE THEY BUFF SUMMONER SOON
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-01-12 12:57:03
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Fenrir.Richybear said: »
HEYO JUST POPPING IN TO SAY I HOPE THEY BUFF SUMMONER SOON

Nah dog gotta undo that BST nerf badly man, BST gotta enjoy some love.
 Fenrir.Kaldaek
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By Fenrir.Kaldaek 2018-01-12 12:58:25
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Fenrir.Kaldaek said: »
This is true. Not because game rules people. I feel the developers adjusted the game to roll with the age increase of the player base.

When I started playing i was in high school. Now i'm 31 with 4 children and a home to provide for.

Damned if i'm wasting my precious ffxi time on this event. Unlock the job and buy the +3 from the AH. The end.

Im gonna quote myself. I never stated I am not doing this event to reap a faster reward. You sir, drummed that up. I am doing gated events and will purchase my AF. If you interpret that as a need for instant gratification, so be it, im not going to argue your opinion.

The next statement is for me to quote in another couple pages of flame. I'll be back for it.

"You're a fool".
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-01-12 12:59:13
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Then why do we have people clamoring to be in our Dynamis group. Every time we start to organize we got new people sending tells "can I come / join".

There is plenty of desire to do it, there is very few people wanting to put in the effort of organizing an effective team. What few people do organize generally do so in a shitty way.
Anecdote based on the highest population server with what's likely a very social group.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Lazily farming old dynamis or salvage while watching your favorite show on netflix and leisurely chatting with your linkshell is enjoyable for some.

This is not playing the game.
This doesn't really deserve a response, but clearly it's playing the game. People can enjoy things in different ways than you do.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Nah, enjoyment has value.

Not according to your original statement where you based value entirely off the time to gil ratio, while ignoring the biggest value item present.
Here we have a straw man. Gameplay has value. Rewards have value. Generally, group content rewards are much higher to draw people toward group content. In this event, they are not. Thus, this event has less appeal. Effort:Reward might not be the only factor that matters, but you can break it down to be part of the meaningful information.

Ambuscade:
Difficulty: 2/5 stars
Gameplay: 2/5 stars
Reward: 4/5 stars
Replay value: 2/5 stars

Dynamis-D:
Difficulty: 3/5 stars
Gameplay: 1/5 stars
Reward: 1/5 stars
Replay value: 1/5 stars

Master Trials:
Difficulty: 4/5 stars
Gameplay: 3/5 stars
Reward: 1/5 stars
Replay Value: 3/5 stars

That's just my take on it, I'm not going to defend why I distributed the stars the way I did or use it as an argument. The point is that, if all other things are equal, people will prefer an event that rewards them appropriately. I personally don't feel that dynamis is even equal as an event when compared to most other things. It's boring and drawn out, with little real difficulty.

It's very hard to make an argument that ambuscade is more engaging, difficult, or has better replay value than master trials. Yet, without the reward, nobody does master trials.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-01-12 13:03:54
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They probably can encourage Dynamis by making some records of Eminence quests that are repeatable weekly, that give out some kind of reward. Actually, it wouldn't be a bad idea if they had an ROE For beating Midboss/job that rewarded a shard of the particular job you are one (as a one time reward), kind of how they did with Omen. This allowed people to sort of not have to fight for at least one drop.
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 Fenrir.Kaldaek
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By Fenrir.Kaldaek 2018-01-12 13:05:10
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
They probably can encourage Dynamis by making some records of Eminence quests that are repeatable weekly, that give out some kind of reward. Actually, it wouldn't be a bad idea if they had an ROE For beating Midboss/job that rewarded a shard of the particular job you are one (as a one time reward), kind of how they did with Omen. This allowed people to sort of not have to fight for at least one drop.

I like it. Possibly like vagary in some way? 3/4 KI's from boss give accessory or something lol.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-01-12 13:09:12
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Ambuscade rewards are 5/5. You get direct gil drops, the capes are BIS for every job, and the difficulty can be adjusted up or down. Its the perfect event for making character progress. I'd list all of those values at 5/5
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-01-12 13:10:13
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Fenrir.Kaldaek said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
They probably can encourage Dynamis by making some records of Eminence quests that are repeatable weekly, that give out some kind of reward. Actually, it wouldn't be a bad idea if they had an ROE For beating Midboss/job that rewarded a shard of the particular job you are one (as a one time reward), kind of how they did with Omen. This allowed people to sort of not have to fight for at least one drop.

I like it. Possibly like vagary in some way? 3/4 KI's from boss give accessory or something lol.

It will probably come soon I imagine. There are job boss leaders in dynamis, so its not unlikely they make these, mid bosses, aurix, and zone boss drop a KI. This would definitely make it a bit more interesting, and yes, engaging.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2018-01-12 13:23:17
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
It will probably come soon I imagine. There are job boss leaders in dynamis, so its not unlikely they make these, mid bosses, aurix, and zone boss drop a KI. This would definitely make it a bit more interesting, and yes, engaging.

You are a very optimistic person. And I don't intend that as an insult, but looking at SE's track record, I'd be surprised if they ever even go back and fix the missing time extension.

/puts sarcasm hat on
If only they would do to Dyna-missed Opportuni-D what they did to MNK:
Lower Duration (of event) by 75%: 22.5 minutes
Increase Potency (of drops) by 20%.
Reduce Cooldown by 60%: Enter once every 24 hours
They could even restore the Aurix bug that prematurely prevented further progress in the run and just rename him Boosted_Aurix.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-01-12 13:34:29
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They actually did go back to Omen and release ROEs for it (not for Ou). They introduced card farming paths. They increased the max participants allowed in the zone. They gave campaigns and they even have a pretty horrible conversion rate for cards 10:1. If SE were smart (and I'm not about to accuse them of being that), they would make a shard conversion, 3:1 sounds fair. ROE for completing objectives during specific zones that reward drops, and campaigns to improve drops and encourage more interest in the event.

This has been their trend over the past few years so its not necessarily being optimistic, but rather, just looking at how they've done things in the past and applying them here. I do accuse of them of being lazy, but they do occasionally go back and add/adjust some things qol to make it easier to manage.
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By Phoenix.Keido 2018-01-12 13:40:13
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Go back to arguing about Summoner.
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By Bahamut.Agerine 2018-01-12 13:41:51
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Phoenix.Keido said: »
Go back to arguing about Summoner.

the summoner jobs in Dynamis really need to start dropping more Shards and Voids!
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By clearlyamule 2018-01-12 13:42:09
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Phoenix.Keido said: »
Go back to arguing about Summoner.
D dynamis was SE's answer to smn. A protracted event smn isn't good at zerging... they just forgot to make it one people wanted to do
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By Draylo 2018-01-12 13:51:31
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Wait until they revamp Abyssea.
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By fonewear 2018-01-12 14:05:50
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Fenrir.Richybear said: »
HEYO JUST POPPING IN TO SAY I HOPE THEY BUFF SUMMONER SOON

I got it Nirvana will have ammo effect like gun/bow that dispenses other Nirvana's for your friends.
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By clearlyamule 2018-01-12 14:13:11
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ilvl vw... where you still need job specific ja/spells/ws to proc for a still terrible droprates but only getting upgrade items for the jobs you are currently on. And with even more temp item spammage!
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By fonewear 2018-01-12 14:14:24
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clearlyamule said: »
ilvl vw... where you still need job specific ja/spells/ws to proc for a still terrible droprates but only getting upgrade items for the jobs you are currently on. And with even more temp item spammage!

Actually this could be good if they got rid of that terrible drop rates.
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By clearlyamule 2018-01-12 14:21:33
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fonewear said: »
clearlyamule said: »
ilvl vw... where you still need job specific ja/spells/ws to proc for a still terrible droprates but only getting upgrade items for the jobs you are currently on. And with even more temp item spammage!

Actually this could be good if they got rid of that terrible 1% drop rates.
But you know they wont. Even when asked to fix the old one because no one does full alliances anymore they just said droprates were based on alliances. And when pointed out counting the droprate of personal drops of an entire alliance as the drop rate without dividing by 18 is completely disingenuous they just ignored it. Don't worry though 1 person in the alliance will get some piece every 20 fights so working as intended
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