Scythes - What Does SE Need To Do?

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Scythes - What does SE need to do?
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2015-08-29 11:31:09
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Nyruul said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Nyruul said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
And yeah, the irony is strong in this one. Trolls people for not knowing their stuff, then refuses to argue when others call him out on his mistakes.

Excuse me? Who exactly did I troll? Whos calling me out on my mistakes? Also all that did was defend your stance on DRK.

Congrats on your Vagary LS slave spamming Plouton/Perfidien, it's pretty easy now that it's all figured out.

Damn you .. I was talking about Kenrusai obviously. I deleted it because I didn't want to feed the troll anymore.

Lol ok, ftfy

I'm surprised people are still slaving at Vagary as their main goal in linkshells.

You want to know why I made a Vagary Linkshell? Because I am not in an endgame LS. So all those who joined endgame linkshells and spammed the hell out of Vagary initially, they got everything. I didn't, I took a break from FFXI, and returned several months later to find no one was doing Vagary, especially in EU time.

So I saw someone selling clears and equipment on my server, and from that moment I decided to set up my own linkshell dedicated to Vagary. Despite the server being so quiet during GMT time (300-500), I still manage to fill alliances (of 18) every Tuesday with players looking forward to Vagary.

And we only run once a week, I can't do any other times. I don't have an endgame LS, only my Vagary LS and my social LS. I would like to do Escha stuff, but I don't have the time, I have life/work/daughter/mythic weapon/writing, and many other games to play in my spare time. So I will continue spamming Vagary, once a week, until no one wants to join anymore. I don't need clears, I do it for the fun and to get others clears. If I happen to get someone (or myself) a Tartarus Platemail, that's an added bonus.
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By Nyruul 2015-08-29 11:35:47
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It's a legitimate argument but it kind of contradicts the pretense in how you said that.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai 2015-08-29 11:35:51
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Nyruul said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
And yeah. Kenrusai is a troll. End of story. Assuming and judging others is the worst thing anyone can do.

Yeah but he's not very good at it which is why avoids certain people with his antics.

Avoid certain people? Not that I think I am trolling here to begin with, but if I've "avoided" someone, then it's for the simple reason of a response not being warranted.
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By Nyruul 2015-08-29 11:44:30
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Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai said: »
Nyruul said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
And yeah. Kenrusai is a troll. End of story. Assuming and judging others is the worst thing anyone can do.

Yeah but he's not very good at it which is why avoids certain people with his antics.

Avoid certain people? Not that I think I am trolling here to begin with, but if I've "avoided" someone, then it's for the simple reason of a response not being warranted.

I'm not dumpster diving the forums for examples. I don't keep tabs on you(or anyone).

You got a lot to say about the game but I have not seen you running around town much of ever. Assuming you go by another name these days while posting as an old character in the manor you do. Or do you not play at all? That's kind of trollish isn't it?
 Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai
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By Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai 2015-08-29 11:49:36
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Rest assured, I play, until November of course.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2015-08-29 11:51:00
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Back on the topic of Scythe, DRK can deal decent damage, but it often comes at a price of needing someone extra to support the melee job in range, which is often counter-productive.

Firstly, Scythe would need an update to its weaponskills. I would prefer Quietus and/or Insurgency to become the main WS, with Entropy used for the MP recovery. At the same time, more damage will do nothing for DRK, WAR or DRG, because more damage gives more enmity, and that doesn't fix the problem.

These jobs should be harder to kill. While a BST, THF, or DNC could walk into range and get taken down with an AoE, make it so DRK WAR & DRG have the ability to defend themselves in various ways. Not to the point of invincibility, they shouldn't be on the same level as PLD, but at least make it so these DD jobs can continue to dish it out where other jobs may struggle.

Either the content needs to change, or the jobs need to change. Without these changes, DRK WAR and DRG will continue to be used for CP parties, old content, and some of the Escha NM; if lucky enough to know players who will bring you along.
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 Siren.Akson
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By Siren.Akson 2015-08-29 14:22:56
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geigei said: »
By the time drk activates am3 sam will allready have 100k+ damage, dunno what spreasheet you've been using but looks broken.
Very funny considering SS doesn't comprehend Meditate too well. Look again?
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Spreadsheets are never truly representative. I wish people wouldn't take numbers in a spreadsheet as fact, the spreadsheets don't take the many variables of battle into play.
It's the closest ya'll get to knowing w/o actually gearing or making a Liberator yourself.
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By geigei 2015-08-29 14:38:10
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You need a spreadsheet telling you that sam starts fight with am3 ready? do you have one for hello kitty online aswell?
 Siren.Akson
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By Siren.Akson 2015-08-29 14:40:04
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geigei said: »
You need a spreadsheet telling you that sam starts fight with am3 ready? do you have one for hello kitty online aswell?
I guess too complicated to figure out that it might take a whole :10 or less to hit 3000tp on other jobs? idk broskie. Meditate is nice but something other DDs can do DMG w/o? You're right!
If spreadsheets are "broken" why don't ya go be a good little lad and try to fix them?
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By geigei 2015-08-29 14:44:38
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You just went full retard.
 Siren.Akson
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By Siren.Akson 2015-08-29 14:52:56
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You're idea that 3000tp vs 0tp from the start automaticly wins is flawed at best? Maybe. Or maybe ya wanna try convincing me some more how BLM can't live w/o Occult making Amalric useless?
geigei said: »
You just went full retard.
My thoughts exactly.
*sry dbl post
 Asura.Failaras
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-08-29 16:50:06
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Siren.Akson said: »
Idk any more OP drks any longer. The best ones NA either quit or banned and ain't used DRK really since VW rags. All I know is what the spreadsheets tell me and it shows DRK liberator > SAM koga by a good amount. I don't always buy into spreadsheet info but w/ this it's the only credible source I have. OP drks do not exist on my server cept one JP dude that I've never done anything w/.

If nobody here possesses a Mythic DRK and spreadsheets show it as not only the best wpn for DRK but also > Koga SAM. I think we need more Liberators less Apocs or no?
Do you have updated Drk spreadsheets that you could share? I personally haven't worked with the Drk spreadsheets in a while and certainly not since JP have came out which requires some pretty significant work to change so I would like to see to verify how you are getting Lib over Koga.

One thing worth mentioning is the spreadsheets are very deceiving on Koga because the real power of the weapon (and the job) comes from skillchaining. In fact I wouldn't be suprised to find Nenekirimaru actually spreadsheeting better than Koga currently because the strength of the weapon is to 4-6 step without ever having to worry about missing. I cannot even begin to explain how absolutely infuriating it is to be 4 stepping and to miss your Kasha, completely negating any DPS benefit and in actually having a DPS loss. There is also something to be mentioned of just spamming Fudo>Fudo creating still very powerful lights, Drk has no ability to just spam its best WS to get optimal damage.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-08-29 16:52:42
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Either the content needs to change, or the jobs need to change. Without these changes, DRK WAR and DRG will continue to be used for CP parties, old content, and some of the Escha NM; if lucky enough to know players who will bring you along.

That's the biggest issue. Right now melee's as just too dangerous to have in a fight.

DRK specifically needs some updating outside of Scythe / GS weapon skills. Absorbs should mean more, but right now with the 3s global lock out, casting any spells mid-battle is a huge DPS loss. I really wish SE would update Absorbs to use skill and not level, have about 50 base at 500 skill give or take. Have them last two minutes and remove the 3s global lockout timer. Then make them overwrite each other so as to prevent abuse. Now you have a DRK who's able to jack up a stat of choice, STR, VIT, DEX or accuracy without any major hit on their DPS. When I played DRK I liked to do DS + NV + Absorb-X for +48 of a stat, usually accuracy, it was actually worth it to do that. Would be a big *** boost to Liberator DRK's which is what it should be.

And yeah between mythic SAM and DRK there isn't a comparison, SAM wins. That job practically comes built with WS spam / multi-step SC spam. DRK should be far stronger then it is right now.
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By geigei 2015-08-29 17:02:14
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Asura.Failaras said: »
I wouldn't be suprised to find Nenekirimaru actually spreadsheeting better than Koga

It does, then i went to parse against koga sam with my nene and i was embarrased, dis tells a lot on how reliable is spreadsheet.
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-08-29 17:18:41
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geigei said: »
Asura.Failaras said: »
I wouldn't be suprised to find Nenekirimaru actually spreadsheeting better than Koga

It does, then i went to parse against koga sam with my nene and i was embarrased, dis tells a lot on how reliable is spreadsheet.
Parsing is an extremely flawed way to find the difference in weapons, if you parse against yourself you are running different variables and if you parse against other people you are talking about skill and not weapons. Generally speaking parsing is better for either judging how good you are versus another player or a large (and sometimes flawed) general idea of how well you compete on x job vs y job assuming you can control the conditions of the parse to the best of your ability.

The spreadsheets are a tool, they need to be looked at and analyzed thinking in mind that they won't include Skillchains, Magic Bursts, gaining up to 3000 TP for aftermaths, and uptimes on certain things.
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 Sylph.Safiyyah
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By Sylph.Safiyyah 2015-08-29 17:40:16
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One way they could fix dark knight is by making it a true melee/magic hybird job. Maybe give DRK an ability that grants a huge boost to magic damage on burst, tied to melee damage dealt or building with successive melee swings ala Impetus.

Part of the problem is that S-E only knows how to gate content behind huge accuracy requirements. That hurts the 2handers quite a bit.

Siren.Akson said: »
Idk any more OP drks any longer. The best ones NA either quit or banned and ain't used DRK really since VW rags. All I know is what the spreadsheets tell me and it shows DRK liberator > SAM koga by a good amount. I don't always buy into spreadsheet info but w/ this it's the only credible source I have. OP drks do not exist on my server cept one JP dude that I've never done anything w/.

If nobody here possesses a Mythic DRK and spreadsheets show it as not only the best wpn for DRK but also > Koga SAM. I think we need more Liberators less Apocs or no?

There was a time when Liberator was approximately equal or slightly better than Koga with a certain set of buffs and debuffs. However:

-SC/MB update absolutely tilts the scales massively in SAM's favor. Even if it makes SAM a pure utility job for some content, which as a SAM sucks but at least we're still useful.
-Spreadsheeting perfect AM3 on DRK is less of a close approximation than doing so on SAM.
-SAM loses less survivability to do damage.
-SAM has gotten more of a boost in gear compared to DRK in the last year.

I mathed out Liberator several updates ago because I was considering one on my alt. Even with that and top gear for DRK I believe you're going to lag behind, and you lose a lot of utility compared to SAM as well.
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-08-29 17:55:16
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Stay on topic in here. Topic ban issued for Kenrusai for derailing/trolling.
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By Siren.Akson 2015-08-29 23:41:06
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Asura.Failaras said: »
Do you have updated Drk spreadsheets that you could share? I personally haven't worked with the Drk spreadsheets in a while and certainly not since JP have came out which requires some pretty significant work to change so I would like to see to verify how you are getting Lib over Koga.
Not since Acro was introduced but if it was then, atleast on SS even w/ updated content and JPs, it very well could be atm as well. Personally I gave up on considering making Liberator and w/ it went all my SS ambitions comparing DRK vs SAM.
Quote:
One thing worth mentioning is the spreadsheets are very deceiving on Koga because the real power of the weapon (and the job) comes from skillchaining. In fact I wouldn't be suprised to find Nenekirimaru actually spreadsheeting better than Koga currently because the strength of the weapon is to 4-6 step without ever having to worry about missing. I cannot even begin to explain how absolutely infuriating it is to be 4 stepping and to miss your Kasha, completely negating any DPS benefit and in actually having a DPS loss. There is also something to be mentioned of just spamming Fudo>Fudo creating still very powerful lights, Drk has no ability to just spam its best WS to get optimal damage.
If spreadsheets are (were) correct and Emp WS is best using Liberator then DRK does have a means to do the same as SAM fudo spams making darkness instead w/ Quietus.
Sylph.Safiyyah said: »
I mathed out Liberator several updates ago because I was considering one on my alt. Even with that and top gear for DRK I believe you're going to lag behind, and you lose a lot of utility compared to SAM as well.
How far behind is the question cuz as everyone knows, not all players are equally talented, and also the variables could also make DRK superior.
My point from the start was Liberator is THE scythe and Apoc is def not in the same ballpark. Liberator can and will compete against the best SAMs so I don't see how DRK needs some drastic overhaul. If anything I think all 2handers need a boost not just DRK itself cuz even w/ updates, improving SAM over DRK, since Acro?

SAM is still......
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Without these changes, DRK WAR and DRG will continue to be used for CP parties, old content, and some of the Escha NM; if lucky enough to know players who will bring you along.
Irrelevant. Yet not alone.
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By mcdonalds87 2015-10-19 11:02:32
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I'm no expert in this. But Drk can get up to 71% + weapon skill damage on lib with a lot of gear. With last resort active and haste2 and songs and AM3, it's lIke a kraken club sycthe. And the massive amounts of DA and triple attack Drk has. I don't see how koga can keep up, plus absorb vit.

Again I don't know much about Sam. I always vote for under dogs. I building a lib now, but I built a rng mythic when people laughed at it and I've pulled off 33,000 trueflight on delve NMs and average 10k-20k steady and it never misses. So, with the proper gear, I don't think anything needs to be done with scythes. They can keep up. And they help Sam, too, with their absorb spells :)
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By Sylph.Safiyyah 2015-10-19 11:24:02
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mcdonalds87 said: »
I'm no expert in this. But Drk can get up to 71% + weapon skill damage on lib with a lot of gear. With last resort active and haste2 and songs and AM3, it's lIke a kraken club sycthe. And the massive amounts of DA and triple attack Drk has. I don't see how koga can keep up, plus absorb vit.

Again I don't know much about Sam. I always vote for under dogs. I building a lib now, but I built a rng mythic when people laughed at it and I've pulled off 33,000 trueflight on delve NMs and average 10k-20k steady and it never misses. So, with the proper gear, I don't think anything needs to be done with scythes. They can keep up. And they help Sam, too, with their absorb spells :)

While Liberator DRK might be on-par or even slightly-ahead of Koga SAM, maybe, remember that Fudo chains with itself to make light skillchains. When you figure that into the equation, and also remember that SAM can do huge multi-step SCs, it's not much of a competition.

Anyway, since this topic was made, it's become obvious that not just scythe, but great sword, and all two-hander jobs need a buff. Even SAM, which depending on buffs and target, is getting beaten out by BLU, by a bit, and DNC, by a lot.
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By mcdonalds87 2015-10-19 12:54:50
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Sylph.Safiyyah said: »
mcdonalds87 said: »
I'm no expert in this. But Drk can get up to 71% + weapon skill damage on lib with a lot of gear. With last resort active and haste2 and songs and AM3, it's lIke a kraken club sycthe. And the massive amounts of DA and triple attack Drk has. I don't see how koga can keep up, plus absorb vit.

Again I don't know much about Sam. I always vote for under dogs. I building a lib now, but I built a rng mythic when people laughed at it and I've pulled off 33,000 trueflight on delve NMs and average 10k-20k steady and it never misses. So, with the proper gear, I don't think anything needs to be done with scythes. They can keep up. And they help Sam, too, with their absorb spells :)

While Liberator DRK might be on-par or even slightly-ahead of Koga SAM, maybe, remember that Fudo chains with itself to make light skillchains. When you figure that into the equation, and also remember that SAM can do huge multi-step SCs, it's not much of a competition.

Anyway, since this topic was made, it's become obvious that not just scythe, but great sword, and all two-hander jobs need a buff. Even SAM, which depending on buffs and target, is getting beaten out by BLU, by a bit, and DNC, by a lot.

With Drk swinging like crazy. Can it not too self sc with itself? I'm legitimately asking because I don't know. I've spammed entropy a lot but I don't think it sc'd or I just haven't cared to notice. Still in the building stage. I still see how koga pulls ahead. It takes a good bit of support to get Drk up to speed.
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By Siren.Flannelman 2015-10-19 13:23:20
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Scythe has several ways of making darkness and even double dark skillchains. Insurgency > Entropy > Cross Reaper > Quietus (double dark). Or you can just use Quietus > Quietus for darkness. It can even make light Guillotine > Entropy > Insurgency.
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By Sylph.Safiyyah 2015-10-19 13:29:41
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Yes, but look at those weapon skills. None of them are very good, most of them have pitiful mods, and bonus weapon skill damage only applies to the first hit. Tachi: Fudo is just a lot better than any WS that DRK has access to, including great sword. 80% STR mod, damage scales with TP, single hit, self-SCs light or closes double light. Resolution can beat it on pure numbers but doesn't skillchain nearly as well.

I'm not saying that dark knight is a bad job, but it's worse than samurai, has been worse than samurai for a long time, and desperately needs an update. I love DRK and I hope it gets fixed, but even with Liberator the job is in rough shape.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2015-10-19 14:13:38
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Ahhh this thread again. Will people stop saying DRK is GOOD at this point of the game, even with GS it's not. I ain't played my main job properly since everyone was doing Foret and Yorcia Delves; there's just no reason to use it for anything except CP, or to mess around in Delve. I already said this above, so why are people coming back and saying DRK is good? It's not, and SE won't do anything about it. If they do I'll probably die happy, until then, play something else because DRK, WAR and DRG absolutely suck on most things, and it's nobody's fault, it's the content and the lack of upgrades.

At least SAM has SOME utility, like being able to 4-6 step for Vagary, or any other situation where you can get away with having a SAM in range for skillchains, and only then you're setting up MBS for the real DD, the BLMs.

If ya going to talk about DRK, WAR, DRG, Scythe, or SAMs lack of damage (SAM still rocks over drk war drg), go to the SE main forums and tell them. If enough people speak up, they MIGHT (but probably won't) do something for those who enjoy playing jobs like DRK WAR and DRG. Until then, stop spreading false information about DRK.

If you want any part in endgame on DRK, you NEED a Ragnarok at the very least (or a perfectly augmented Macbain), and even then you need friends who will let you. You get sorta competitive with Liberator, but even when I get mine, I can't imagine it being used for endgame, I'm only building it so I'll have more fun getting job points to max.
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By TheRealGoat 2015-10-19 14:32:09
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Just delete the "Town knight" job and be done with it.
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By Asura.Floppyseconds 2015-10-19 14:56:48
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TheRealGoat said: »
Just delete the "Town knight" job and be done with it.

Nah, give BSTs an awesome 119 scythe with ready recast and stuff. Then scythe will be fixed.
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By Ruaumoko 2016-01-31 16:27:07
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Scythe's simple fix is to adjust it's weapon skills. Dark Knight gets the Critical Atk. Bonus trait and a lot of Critical Atk Bonus through gifts and on one of it's best Scythes (Dacnomania)... yet it does not have a good weapon skill to take advantage of this.


Cross Reaper
Damage Varies with TP.
60% STR / 60% MND
fTP 2.0 / 4.0 / 7.0

v v v v v

Damage Varies with TP.
80% STR / 80% MND
fTP 4.0 / 7.0 / 9.0

-------------------------

Insurgency
Damage Varies with TP.
20% STR / 20% INT
fTP 0.5 / 3.25 / 6.0

v v v v v

Chance of Critical Hit Varies with TP.
50% STR / 50% INT
fTP 2.5 / 6.0 / 9.0

-------------------------

Entropy
Damage Varies with TP.
73% ~~ 85% INT
fTP 0.75 / 1.25 / 2.0

v v v v v

Damage Varies with TP.
73% ~~ 85% STR
fTP 0.75 / 1.25 / 2.0

-------------------------

Quietus
Deals a Triple Damage Attack that Ignores Target's Defense. Amount Ignored Varies with TP.
60% STR / 60% MND
fTP 3.0
TP Modifier: 10% / 30% / 50%

v v v v v

Deals a Darkness Elemental Attack that Ignores Target's Magic Defense. Damage Varies with TP.
60% STR / 60% INT (Damage affected by Magic Atk. Bonus)
fTP 3.0 / 7.0 / 10.0
Ignores 30% of Target's Magic Defense.


This would buff all the major Scythe weapon skills. Cross Reaper scales better and has it's stat mods slightly increased, Insurgency gets a major boost as it gets a Critical Hit chance akin to CDC, Entropy gets it's retarded INT mod changed to a STR mod, and Quietus gets turned into another version of Leaden Salute with potential to deal absolutely massive damage as the closing part of a Darkness or Double Darkness skillchain. Quietus's secondary stat mod is changed from MND to INT for MaB purposes.
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