Killer Instinct: The Beastmaster Compendium

Thats what im finding too in my tests. Ive been tweaking alot trying tp get the tp/sec down as much as possible in an experimental set. Will post when I finish. Also has 0 DW in gear.

Just tried the builds you had before with no DW. I loved it. I know there are a lot of factors that go into it but I did it in Dyna W3 and my parse improved by quite a bit.


Sub NIN with 11 DW.

Sub DNC with 0 DW. Keeping Haste Samba up.

Aymur/Agwu with Swooping Zhivago for the Hybrid debuffs since we do a ranger party. I am in the DD party in both.

I have a whole explanation on why the DW vs no DW shows increased TP gain, I'm doing a writeup and want to make it as digestible as possible. Just explained it to my ls on discord cuz they asked and it was kinda wordy

Speak in definites and it'll turn into a shitshow real fast

Ok so for this explanation here's an example set:
ItemSet 378175
Main-hands: Aymur / Dolci
Offhand: Agwu's Axe
Ammo: Coiste Bodhar
Augments:
Cape: 10 Store TP
Feet: 5 Double Attack

***Assumptions: 100% accuracy, NO multi attack proc on any WS
***WS Set assumptions (based on my current WS sets):
-Primal Rend: STP+5
-Decimation: STP+28

This set gives us a total of:
90STP 16DA 10TA 2QA 0DW

Our estimated time to 1k tp AFTER weapon skill:
Aymur AM3: 4.625 seconds
Dolci: 5.385 seconds

With Max magic haste and sub ninja our attack speed is:
Aymur: 2.34 seconds / round
Dolci: 2.25 seconds / round

This set will give us an average # of attack rounds to generate 1k tp:
Aymur: 2.313 attack rounds / 1k tp
Dolci: 2.805 attack rounds / 1k tp

The important takeaway here is that on average it will take us 3 attack rounds to achieve 1k tp after weapon skill (cannot have a half attack round so you round up); however an above average multi-attack proc can let us break below the threshold, likewise a below average multi-attack proc rate could elongate our time to tp. The Nuance of this set is finding the appropriate threshold of multi-attack to store tp and I believe that maximizing our quad attack is the best possible way to ensure we can break that 2 combat round threshold. When I swap the DA+5 for QA+2 or +3 on the boots, and the Malignance Tabard for a Valorous Mail with QA+2 or +3 then our average hits nearly at the 2 round/hit threshold.

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If we take a set with 0 multi attack and only store tp + dual wield then we will have a baseline that removes nearly all variance:
ItemSet 378201

Our estimated time to 1k tp AFTER weapon skill:
-Aymur AM3: 5.044 seconds
-Dolci: 6.940 seconds

With Max magic haste and sub ninja our attack speed is:
-Aymur: 2.00 seconds / round
-Dolci: 1.92 seconds / round

This set will give us an average # of attack rounds to generate 1k tp:
-Aymur: 2.522 attack rounds / 1k tp
-Dolci: 3.615 attack rounds / 1k tp

This set has no multi-attack so it is very consistent and will always take 4 attack rounds with Dolci and 3 attack rounds more often with Aymur AM3 than not. Remember you cannot have a half an attack round so you always round up. This set lacks any multi attack so you can never get above average return and drop down an attack round bracket with Dolci. Aymur requires hitting a 2 TA or a TA and DA in order to 1k tp in 2 attack rounds.

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Basically, if we run without dual wield then we can fit in more multi-attack which increases our likely hood of getting an above average attack round and come in below the 2 attack threshold. If you run with maximum dual wield and store tp than you will have a very consistent range, but it will not break below the 2 attacks rounds / 1k tp threshold ever. If you ever come in below the attack round threshold then you just gained a 1.92-2second advantage over a set with 0 multi attack.

The two sets above are more for explanation, they are by no means the best sets I've found. Still finding new ways to push that attack rounds average closer and closer to the 2 threshold. Once I hit a wall and cannot push it any further then I will post what I've worked up. (So far though QA3 body and feet will definitely be part of the equation.)

If this is confusing, I apologize, I can try to break it down more, its late I'm sleepy :P

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One last thing that I didn't touch on. If you do try out a 0 dual wield set, I highly HIGHLY recommend you sub dancer and maintain haste samba. Doing so is about a half second average time/1k tp no matter what weapon loadout, which equates to breaking the 2attack round threshold on its own.

Yes. I voiced this frustration here and I believe on the official forums in the past. Our best melee options are Dolichenus, Aymur + TP bonus, Tri-edge + Barbarity or the new Ody axe (Spaitin pointed this one out so I'd like to credit him), or Pangu Path B + TP bonus. Other melee jobs would be pretty enraged if the clearcut melee dps winner was an Ambuscade weapon. Granted this is based off of largely old/broken numbers from the BST spreadsheet but Doli is definitely the best option for us. Aymur serves dual-duty but the other options are basically irrelevant and that sucks.

What TP return values are you using? I can write something that will give you exact round numbers instead of the averages like that, since TP/second is not a worthwhile stat on it's own. Particularly for something like dolichenus which is spamming a WS where overflow is fairly useless.

This is sort of odd to me - "I'm mad that we got a weapon that's TOO GOOD"? Do you want BST to get good things like a fantastic melee axe, or do you just want to protect your status because you're jealous that you made a RMEA and it's not the best?

To be honest, as a fairly recent arrival to the BST train (just geared/leveled it in late 2020, and just hit Master today!), one reason for picking up the job was precisely that I didn't feel like I had to have an expensive/time consuming RMEA to play at a high level. The MUST HAVE MYTHIC brand of gatekeeping is kind of obnoxious, IMO, and it's less strong with BST than it is with most jobs. The less of that BST has, the more welcoming it is to others.

And really, BST's unique niche is with the pets anyway - so what if the best master melee weapon isn't super expensive? You aren't a melee-only job and a lot of your value comes from the cool stuff pets can add, and they've sorta shifted away from BST pets as just damage anyway and instead more of a variety of buffs/debuffs and a bit of damage in the mix. Yeah, I can see the argument that it would be nice to see more weapons that buff the pet's current role as a provide of unique buffs/debuffs (PUP Su5 is a nice fairly recent example of filling a new pet-focused niche for that job, buffing the pet's weapon skill damage in a way that wasn't really addressed much in previous weapons) - but that doesn't mean we need to complain about a good 100% master-focused BST weapon.

Besides, 2/4 of BST REMAs still have a clear place? That honestly isn't too far out of line with most jobs.

1) Aymur is still the king of pet damage weapons, unlikely to change.
2) Farsha I can't say I'm an expert on, but isn't it still best magic damage BST option? Kinda unique too, a lot of melee jobs don't get a weapon to pump up a good magic damage WS (and great white damage to boot)
3) For Relics... OK, Doli beats Guttler convincingly. Join the club, lots of relics (more than half) got left in the dust of non-RMEAs. You're not alone on that well-worn road that's already slick with the tears of those who made a Mandau, Ragnarok, Yoichi, Amano, Mandau, Excalibur, Claustrum, Bravura, etc...
4) For Aeonics... several of them are also kinda blah, BST isn't particularly special to be on an Aeonic weapon that loses out to non-RMEA options either. See also: Sequence, Aeneas, Anguta, Fail-Not, Khatvanga, Anguta.


If you want "other melee jobs" complaining about Ambuscade stuff, try being a player who cares about getting high end stuff for your job then having Naegling/SB compete on the highest level with RMEA weapons when it's not even a weapon type commonly associated with your job! That happens for NIN DRG RNG BRD DRK, arguably WAR COR (at least they do have fairly high weapon rating for swords, even if that isn't the first weapon type you'd think of for the job).

At least BST gets an axe as their "this weapon kinda punches above its weight" entry. A damn good one at that. Why is this something to complain about?

I agree with you that the Ambu weps should be good enough to hold players over until they can work up to a REMA, but SE should focus on fixing weapons skills and not putting too much into one weapon. They should buff the weapon skill and have a much smaller percentage be on the weapon itself to continue to buff the weapon skill. That way if you want to use another weapon you can and do not feel stuck using the Ambu weapon.

@Briko what you're doing completely makes sense. Your only objective is to hit 1000 tp as quickly, consistently, and efficiently as possible with complete disregard for overflow. Solid mentality with what is available for the job.

AND you're providing base Haste Samba to other jobs that might be interested as an added bonus. Good job!

Im unsure what you are asking for. The tp/hit is factored into this calculation.

A friend and I sat down and ran numerous sets and we believe these are the best options sub dancer:

ItemSet 378206
All 3 Valorous have QA+3
Cape is Store TP+10

If you lack the Oseem Dream then Valorous Boots with +5 Double Attack in the Hybrid set below is the 2nd best option.

For a hybrid set this:
ItemSet 378208
Cape is Store TP+10 for Aymur; Double Attack +10 for Dolichenus


---------------Budget build / Newish BST:-------------------
ItemSet 378209
Cape: Store TP+10
Boots: Double Attack +5
Gloves: Path D
Legs: Triple Attack +2

I'm aware, I'm asking you what your TP return is so I can show you a better way to do this, since tp/second doesn't mean anything. If a DW set and a non-DW set both reach the goal TP in the same amount of delays, then the DW set is doing it faster regardless of the TP/second.

Exactly? The Non-DW set is achieving the goal in fewer delays than the DW set...

I could round up the X-hit because a half hit is not possible I guess.

Rounding up increases the rounds/1k tp by about 1/10th (0.1) across the board. The above set is still providing the best results.

Not really, though. Both sets are more often than not going to take two rounds to get 900+ tp (since you still haven't told me what tp return you're using.) If both sets are getting TP in two rounds, then the one using DW is faster. The one requiring large amounts of QA will have more odds of doing it in one of course, but that's the only advantage it has.

Another aspect I'm curious about is how would Farsha look in full Gleti. PDL and Crit rate are what Farsha wants for it's white damage, after all, so 50% bonus crit rate might make the setup more viable. Will have to give it a try once I've got the gear.

That is exactly what I am saying. The dual wield set is getting TP an entire round slower than the non-DW set which is where the 1.86second time save is coming in (1 attack round aprox). I apologize if this is not clear?

I put in a set. 107 store tp, 0 multiattack, 9 dual wield sub dnc max haste: you need 7 hits (4 delay rounds) to hit 1k tp after WS.

Using the exact same set 107 store tp, 0 multi attack BUT 0 DW: You only need 6 hits (3 delay rounds) to hit 1k tp after WS.

The purpose of having decimal value and tp/sec is for optimization and only matters when you are factoring multi attack rate.

You have got me thinking though on TP value tiers again for "X hit" but instead of "X hit" its more "X rounds" since dual wield gets 2 attacks per round you divide by 2 round up. So a 7 hit and 8 hit build are essentially the same.

With this thought process here are the Tier values to guarantee a 4 round build sub dnc:
9 DW: store tp 59-110
0 DW: store tp 45-92
0 DW (3 regain): STP 44-90

I'm in the same camp that wishes they would of tweaked weaponskills vs making boosts exclusive to a weapon with no pet stats.

Decimation, Ku, Asuran Fists, Etc needed some love in general.

I'd rather use R/M/SU5 Path B that actually benefit myself and my pet. If SU5 effect worked offhand maybe I'd be a little less bitter about it lmao.

The problem with axe weaponskills is they arguably suck at 1000TP unless you are using Dolci.

This can be remedied with a TP bonus Axe or Fencer at least. Mistral/Calamity perform rather well at 2000+, and Onslaught actually has potential R15, heck it still might. Onslaught's after math gives you and a pet well needed attack boost as well.

The biggest shame is how bad Ruinator is, though I'm tempted to make a Tri-Edge.

Most of the time I'm using Path B Pangu with a TP Bonus Axe offhand.

The Accuracy, Follow Up Attacks, Subtle Blow II, and Pet stats are rather nice.

Variety is the spice of life.

I used the same values you just mentioned, so you have something off I think anyways:

Account for 99%/95% hit rates, you get 1000 TP in two rounds 88.66% of the time and in three 11.3% of the time.

Changing the DW value to 15 instead of 24, you get the same TP in two 89%, three 10.95% and four in 0.05%, four rounds is an outlier of course from bad luck on hit rates, so we can really say they are equal, except the one with 24DW has less delay so it'll do it faster.

You did not account for haste samba... And I've already mentioned that I am assuming 100% accuracy for now.
Also the post WS TP required is not 1000. You have to account for a 3hit WS with stp+28.

I think the problem with buffing Axe WSs directly is that it'll just be more of a buff to WAR than it will be to BST. Don't know if that would be an issue, but I can imagine that's what they're trying to avoid.

What about Blurred Axe+1 for off hand? If you have really high store TP then the extra 45% swings would be very helpful no?

you mentioned both subs being /dnc, so i don't have to account for it since they are both going to use it, except the one with 24 DW is delay capped and the other is not.

Yes, I know that, that's why I mentioned I was accounting for accuracy before anyone asked about the 4 round results.

I've been asking what you were using for TP returns the whole time, you just refused to answer.

With a goal of 646 TP, both 24 and 15 DW with 107 Store TP both get there with two rounds about 95.5% of the time.

I have one and I've been using the Knife+1 more often than the Axe tbh.

Thats why they should just do what Rua suggested and give BST a WSD trait.

Multi-attack offhand would have higher rates of return, It's hard to justify the lack of any other meaningful stats over Agwu to me though :P

And I asked what you mean by TP Returns? The amount of tp per hit you gain? The amount of tp you get after a WS? I provided ALL of the data that you would need to figure these numbers out. I said that "I am confused on what you are asking" you did not provide any clarifying information. I would love to provide info, but "TP Return" is very vague and could mean a multitude of things.

I think what he wants is amount of TP you have left over after you WS. i.e. 85 tp after primal rend.

TP return is what you get from the WS, you never provided enough information for me to calculate it myself. You also never specified what you didn't understand, so I could not explain.

Regardless, the DW set is still faster in this situation despite having "less tp/second"

Here is a good question:

If I use the Slugs Max HP Down on a W3 Dynamis Boss, does it still count as progress/damage toward completing a mask?

I'm skeptical and I'm assuming it doesn't.

Has anyone tried this? I've landed it on Volte NMs and even Merieu. Im assuming it would lane on a W3 Boss. It can resist however.

I'm...not sure? I've successfully landed it on the W3 boss, and now that I think about it when we fought and killed the Jeuno boss the mask didn't fill up entirely, but I'm not entirely sure if that was because of the HP down. Next time I fight the boss I'll check and see what happens.