The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On

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The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On
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 Bismarck.Nickeny
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By Bismarck.Nickeny 2019-04-23 10:33:19
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Doesnt taruet give crt bonus as well?

His math had it in the main hand
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By SimonSes 2019-04-23 11:12:51
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That's the thing, I don't want to speculate.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-23 15:13:03
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I wanted to ask about this marvelous 80% crit rate as well. But it's katriina so didn't bother. but Crooked rogue's will get you there.
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By eliroo 2019-04-23 15:25:51
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SimonSes said: »
Still waiting for explanation of that 81.5% crit rate with 1000TP Evisceration without equip. Sounds way too high, but I need to know details to comment that.

5% merits
15% dDEX
5% base
10% 1000TP Evisceration
14% Feather Step
=
49%

Missing 32.5%

Tauret main hand is supposed to be ~13% at 1k TP?
Also they may be assuming Building Flourish which is at least 5% but no one knows the other value, which given their 81.5% number maybe they are estimating it to be 15% base?
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By Spaitin 2019-04-23 17:04:16
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tauret crit bonus is not active during WS. I too would like to know where the 82% is coming from. And could you do the numbers assuming you Do NOT have capped crit hit rate. buffs being rogues boost dex geo dex capped attack and acc capped haste.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-04-23 17:29:50
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Isn't Shining One's bonus active during WSs too?
Supposing that's true, why shouldn't Tauret's be as well?
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By Spaitin 2019-04-23 17:32:24
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Shining one is specifically for ws. According to bg wiki tauret is different. Shining one just gives WS the ability to crit that otherwise couldnt. Tauret increases crit hit rate based on TP . Doesnt look like it adds any crit rate to WS either.
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By SimonSes 2019-04-23 18:13:32
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Since my initial testing, that was very inconclusive outside of bonus at 0%, people started assuming a lot of things. I was waiting for someone to bother to make more tests to throw some light on this mechanic. None did and people started to assume even more. So I finally went and checked it again. Sample size isnt super big, but it's enough for me. Feel free to go test it yourself.

I was wearing no crit rate in gear so expected crit rate should be 25% (15% dDEX, 5%base, 5%merits). Target was dolls in sky.

Kustawi+1/Twashtar - 29.5% crit rate from 322 hits (4.5% too high but I think it's just matter of low sample)

Tauret/Twashtar at 0TP - 67.35% crit rate from 245 hits
Tauret/Twashtar at 500~550TP - 47% crit rate from 110+ hits
Tauret/Twashtar at 1000~1100TP - 22% crit rate from 382 hits
Tauret/- at 1000~1100 - 27% crit rate from 120+ hits

So again, at 0TP Bonus is somewhere between +40-45% probably
At 500~550TP it appears to be +20-25%
At 1000~1100TP it appears to be +0%

So my guess is that it doesn't matter if bonus works for WS or not, because it's +0% above 1000TP.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-23 18:16:05
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The ws goes off and then it gets counted as having zero tp thats why if it worked for evisceration you'd have 100% crit rate. which is why it doesn't work on ws.

Like how the old level 72 weapons and eminient weapons work. The tp gets consumed and the ws actually goes off with zero tp. making the bonuses work (for them)
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By SimonSes 2019-04-23 18:38:37
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
The ws goes off and then it gets counted as having zero tp thats why if it worked for evisceration you'd have 100% crit rate. which is why it doesn't work on ws.

Like how the old level 72 weapons and eminient weapons work. The tp gets consumed and the ws actually goes off with zero tp. making the bonuses work (for them)

You assume this archaic mechanic would work for new weapons, but simple look at Shining One would prove you wrong, because it checks TP before WS to calculate +crit rate for WS.
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By Nariont 2019-04-23 18:43:20
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yeah but that one specifically says "weapon skill:" so of course itd work like that
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-23 18:49:38
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It doesn't work for the weapons, that's the way weaponskills work.

Tp is consumed then the ws goes off. Shining one adds the crit modifier but the weaponskill still goes off with zero tp.
Why we still lose tp if they're out of range.
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By SimonSes 2019-04-23 19:12:25
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
It doesn't work for the weapons, that's the way weaponskills work.

Tp is consumed then the ws goes off. Shining one adds the crit modifier but the weaponskill still goes off with zero tp.
Why we still lose tp if they're out of range.

Yeah, but crit rate bonus for WS with Shining One is based on TP that is taken, not TP that remains, so not like old mechanic with Blau Dolch.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-23 19:58:59
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And thats why tauret gets no bonus crit rate on weaponskills. and shining one does.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-04-23 23:41:00
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SimonSes said: »
Still waiting for explanation of that 81.5% crit rate with 1000TP Evisceration without equip. Sounds way too high, but I need to know details to comment that.

5% merits
15% dDEX
5% base
10% 1000TP Evisceration
14% Feather Step
=
49%

Missing 32.5%

This was done before:
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
After obtaining Tauret, went on and tested it with Twashtar sub, target was apex bats.

Critical Hit Rate went from 84%-51.5% between 0-1K TP in a sample of 1000 hit.

This made the AVG Critical Hit Rate in this window 67.75%!
dDEX was capped it seems because I only had Feather Step 10/10 and, with 10/10 I should've had 5+14% + 33.75 + [4%uncapped dDEX]= 56.7% instead of 67.75% AVG

This should be interesting, since the moment you reach the 1K you will have 81.5% critical rate for Evisceration if you added Rouge Roll, making your AVG Evisceration close to 35-40k in capped situations.

You even corrected it:
SimonSes said: »
You made a small mistake there Katriina. You took avg from 84%-51.5% and then took it further for calculations, but you cant really do that.

Because when you add +30% to you max and min crit rate, your max will actually cap at 100%. Using just previous avg and adding 30% you basically got avg from 114%-81.5%, which obviously won't be the case. It will be avg from 100%-81.5%, so 90.75%, not 97.75%. Small mistake, but still worth to fix now, so it won't be replicated in future calculations, which you might try to do.
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By Spaitin 2019-04-24 01:15:20
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Could you run the numbers for meg vs abnoba for these buffs: sam/fighters capped acc/attack/ haste boost DeX geo DeX? Using tauret/twash and tauret/tamingsari?
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-04-24 01:47:24
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Tauret/Twashtar: 7187.285
WS AVG:27494

Tauret/Taming Sari:6872.997
WS AVG:27056
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By Spaitin 2019-04-24 02:03:02
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are those with/without meg body/abnoba?
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-04-24 03:19:42
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With Meg+2
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By Spaitin 2019-04-24 03:20:14
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and how did abnoba do with those buffs?
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-04-24 03:23:46
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Don't see the point but:

Tauret/Twashtar: 7074.740
WS AVG:26963

Tauret/Taming Sari:6763.976
WS AVG:26522

MEG+2 will always win.
[+]
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By Spaitin 2019-04-24 03:29:55
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Thank you, the point was that you were using different buffs in your previous numbers.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-04-24 03:39:04
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SimonSes said: »
So my guess is that it doesn't matter if bonus works for WS or not, because it's +0% above 1000TP.

Thats kind of contradictory to all the samples of Evisceration DMG done so far.
There is no way that only by the 50% boost to WS DMG it can cause Evisceration to do 200%+ more with Tauret Main. Also, the rate of all WS's that were critical is much higher with Tauret than any other Dagger.

Its either Critical Rate is calculated based on a decay formula with values reaching 0% at 3K TP.
Or its a fixed value that gets added when TP hits 0 every time you WS, which is a weird design concept but I digress.
In both cases Evisceration will gain a massive boost with Tauret Main.

After many trails and on various difficulties ending with Disjoined Mithra's + Tarutaru's Massive AGI, I'm personally leaning towards the decay formula.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-04-24 03:44:25
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Spaitin said: »
Thank you, the point was that you were using different buffs in your previous numbers.
Thats correct, and you're welcome~
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By SimonSes 2019-04-24 06:40:47
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I highly doubt that. All my Evisceration numbers would confirm just +50% damage. I have no idea where you got +200% damage lol. Even with 50% boost to critical hit rate it wouldn't even be close to +200%

Leviathan.Katriina said: »
You even corrected it:
SimonSes said: »
You made a small mistake there Katriina. You took avg from 84%-51.5% and then took it further for calculations, but you cant really do that.

Because when you add +30% to you max and min crit rate, your max will actually cap at 100%. Using just previous avg and adding 30% you basically got avg from 114%-81.5%, which obviously won't be the case. It will be avg from 100%-81.5%, so 90.75%, not 97.75%. Small mistake, but still worth to fix now, so it won't be replicated in future calculations, which you might try to do.

I did because the only test till then was my test at 0TP and 3000TP. So I corrected you on approach with our knowledge on that moment.

You know what you problem is Katriina? You assume A LOT instead of making a field test. It's really super easy to test using abyssea atmas. I might go and check it at some point, but I hope someone else will contribute before that happens.
 Asura.Dexterm
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By Asura.Dexterm 2019-04-24 06:57:19
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I don’t see why it’s so hard to just read the weapons. One says Weapon Skill: and the other does not. I’ve used Tauret a bunch in game, and it definitely does not make my Evisceration do 200% more damage.
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By eliroo 2019-04-24 08:33:26
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Asura.Dexterm said: »
I don’t see why it’s so hard to just read the weapons.

These weapons are pretty explicit if only one thing is effected such as "Weapon Skills" or "Auto Attacks", Tauret does not have such wording on it. It isn't unreasonable to believe, at least at first glance, that its effect could have some reflection on Weapon skills.
 Asura.Dexterm
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By Asura.Dexterm 2019-04-24 08:53:47
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You all give SE way too much credit. Just using the dagger in game should be clear enough to see. Not that I try to use this source much, but the BGwiki page even says it does not work on weaponskills.
[+]
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-04-24 09:43:03
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When AVG Evisceration was around 19-23K before Tauret was introduced and now you’re getting around 37-41k that’s a 200% increase. Even if you divide the AVG on all hits and use the 50% increase, it won’t reach the numbers we get now. That leaves room to critical hits from Tauret and gear/buffs to proc on all hits to be in question.

Also, sorry Simon, you must’ve confused me with someone else over the forum, I don’t “assume” things I go and test things out myself then report back, same as you.

Edit: Adding that before PDL AVG Evisceration was 10-15K to add more context to the update of the WS DMG.
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-04-24 09:44:37
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Asura.Dexterm said: »
You all give SE way too much credit. Just using the dagger in game should be clear enough to see. Not that I try to use this source much, but the BGwiki page even says it does not work on weaponskills.

You do know that BG is written by players from here?
What’s missing is peer review and validation, nothing special.
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