Sigurd's Descendants: The Art Of Dragon Slaying.

Language: JP EN DE FR
2010-09-08
New Items
users online
Forum » FFXI » Jobs » Dragoon » Sigurd's Descendants: The Art of Dragon Slaying.
Sigurd's Descendants: The Art of Dragon Slaying.
First Page 2 3 ... 73 74 75 76 77
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6918
By Asura.Saevel 2019-03-25 00:18:09
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ozaii said: »
Tp overflows nice for the ws though so i dont see the issue. And what about the fact it also isnt a ws in which you will be tossing out at less then 1750 tho my dude? I am just not understanding how it does better for a ws where the difference in tp can mean upwards of many thousand damage.

Because math.

Total damage is more important then screenshots.
Offline
Posts: 80
By Ozaii 2019-03-25 00:35:53
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Thats unfortunate. Can you share the numbers by anychance? Using the camlanns ws set as well for stp return post ws. I dont run numbers myself. And i wouldnt mind seeing them myself. Although if its to much a pain then its all good.
Online
Posts: 1312
By SimonSes 2019-03-25 00:58:20
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Saevel is someone who thinks that higher ws frequency (he calls it Total damage) is always better than holding tp. He will provide no math tho, only some anecdotal proofs sometimes, but im pretty sure never with numbers. Ejin on SAM tested both spaming impulse asap and holding tp above 2000. DPS of spaming wasnt even close to holding.
 Siren.Kyte
Offline
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2950
By Siren.Kyte 2019-03-25 01:00:20
Link | Quote | Reply
 
The TP-generation/unit time metric is just as useful, if not more so, when considering a WS that heavily benefits from overflow.
 Asura.Veikur
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Veikur 2019-03-25 01:23:36
Link | Quote | Reply
 
It's going to depend on the weaponskill.

One that you think would be a prime candidate, like Resolution which is technically 4% stronger at 1x 3000 than 3x 1000, ends up being 11% weaker overall because of Fotia Neck/Belt.

This'll be a smaller gain due to animation lock, but a pretty clear cut winner.

Impulse Drive, which doesn't benefit much from Fotia is a different story. 1x 3000 is 5.5% stronger than 3x 1000 before trying to account for animation lock. Or accounting for Shining Ones unique augment.
Offline
Posts: 80
By Ozaii 2019-03-25 01:35:45
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ah i see. This is nice info here then.
Online
Posts: 1312
By SimonSes 2019-03-25 01:42:07
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Veikur said: »
It's going to depend on the weaponskill.

One that you think would be a prime candidate, like Resolution which is technically 4% stronger at 1x 3000 than 3x 1000, ends up being 11% weaker overall because of Fotia Neck/Belt.

This'll be a smaller gain due to animation lock, but a pretty clear cut winner.

Impulse Drive, which doesn't benefit much from Fotia is a different story. 1x 3000 is 5.5% stronger than 3x 1000 before trying to account for animation lock. Or accounting for Shining Ones unique augment.

Its not as simple because in theory you need one less hit to reach 1000tp (because of TP from WS) while you need to build whole 1000tp from 1000+ to 2000+ Multi-hit exists too and it benefits low tp Impulse more than high tp Impulse. That being said WS delay is a thing too and Impulse avg damage jumps drastically with more tp and its just an example of WS that have higher DPS when holding TP. It was proved by Ejin in practical test on tons of Neaks. It might be a little different for war and drg (more native double attack) but i doubt it will change that much.
 Asura.Veikur
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Veikur 2019-03-25 02:17:41
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Those two auto attacks take up ~20% less time than two weapon skill delays resolve. And provide more white damage.

A basic model:
Offline
Posts: 80
By Ozaii 2019-03-25 10:25:27
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Is that holding tp vs not holding it? Or is that the difference between a da build and a stp build?
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6918
By Asura.Saevel 2019-03-25 13:59:56
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Your using a Trish so I'm assuming Star Diver, meaning +750 TP Bonus along with Fotia Belt + Gorget. Stardiver's TP growth isn't quite linear, going from 1K to 2K doesn't double it's damage and the above mentioned bonus's are static regardless of TP value.

Here is the TP Values
0.75 1.25 1.75

Adding Fotia belt+gorget (200/1024) we get +0.1953125

0.9453125 / 1.4453125 / 1.9453125

Going from 1K to 2K is a 52% increase while requiring more then double the swings (9 instead of 4 on a 5-hit, 8 instead of 7 on a 4-hit), the WS is a static 2s delay which is longer then the 1.5s delay on the attack rounds.

Adding Tp Bonus makes it an even worse thing to do.

At 1K it's +0.375 TP (750 TP Bonus)
At 2K it's also +0.375
TP Bonus stops meaning anything past 2K so not going to bother and instead focus on 1K vs 2K "holding TP".

1.3203125 / 1.8203125

That's a 37.86% increase for double the number of hits.

Without counting MA (I can do that if i have your total MA amounts to figure out the average hits per round) this is the time for both 1K and 2K.

WS = 2s
480 * .20 = 96/60 = 1.6s per swing.

5-hit = 2 + (4 * 1.6) = 8.4 seconds to 1K
5-hit = 2 + (9 * 1.6) = 16.4 seconds to 2K (95% longer wait)
4-hit = 2 + (3 * 1.6) = 6.8 seconds to 1K
4-hit = 2 + (7 * 1.6) = 13.2 seconds to 2K (94% longer wait)

So with your set your looking at a 94% longer cycle time for only 37.86% increase in WS damage, effectively you are severely nerfing your own damage by deliberately waiting.

Now if those times look big, it's because I'm using 0MA and we all have MA. MA lowers the effective cycle time by reducing the number that gets multiplied by the hits.

AAPR = Average Attacks Per Round

5-hit = 2 + (4/(AAPR) * 1.6)

So with 50% you get 1.5 AAPR

5-hit = 2 + ((4/1.5) * 1.6) = 6.26 seconds to 1K averaged.

Most DD's should be aiming at about 1.8 AAPR + 5-hit before buffs, the exact values different for each job and gear build, that's just a rule of thumb which seems to balance out the numbers for optimal WS spam on a buffed DD.

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/31534/math-oax-multi-attack-and-you/

Download this spreedsheet to figure out your own AAPR.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zv6C1D04LxwjEE_464C4_Hv9eYqtaezQKfCcfWafwZc/edit#gid=0
Online
Posts: 1312
By SimonSes 2019-03-25 14:19:49
Link | Quote | Reply
 
SimonSes said: »
Ejin on SAM tested both spaming impulse asap and holding tp above 2000. DPS of spaming wasnt even close to holding.
Asura.Veikur said: »
Impulse Drive
Asura.Saevel said: »
I'm assuming Star Diver

:)


Asura.Saevel said: »
Your using a Trish

Like where?
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6918
By Asura.Saevel 2019-03-25 14:24:13
Link | Quote | Reply
 
This was the set and thread regarding MA vs Store TP.

Ozaii said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Ozaii said: »
Really just cuz its not pushing as much white damage as gungnir and also it just feels more reliable then the gungnir ma build.

Store TP and Multi-Attack do the exact same thing, except MA also adds damage.

Something like this, though the exact amounts vary based on if you have Samurai's Roll or not.
2 DA > 2 Store TP > 1 DA > 1 Store TP

Yea but after a certian amount of da it really is just better for the job to build for the x hit builds though. And again the white damage is not as great as gungnir. So going for a 4 hit just feels better off especially when the niqmaddu ring procs and brings you up 1k tp or da procs and brings ya half that. Vs getting 400 from da proc and 800 from the qa attack proc.

ItemSet 352477

Heres the tp set i just made minor adjustments to for shining one. Swap out the pants too if you get good valor augs on pants. I just havent yet. And can swap the telos out for cessence or brutal too maybe. Also use petrov not flamma i just havent changed it. Maybe if the weapon was better off for drg and the goal was just to hit 1k tp then ws then the 5 hit would be better off. But since its goal is to hit 1750 or above you need yhe extra stp for it to perform to its max for the job really.

That set brings drg to 39% da including wyvern buff while maintaining a 4 hit. Cessence brings it to 41%. And 44% with brutal, idk if with cessance and brutal are 4 hit still though but the minor da are meh. Idk i prefer consistancy over a random chance though. You do you. I just dont think the white damage of shining one is worth a 5 hit.
Offline
Posts: 80
By Ozaii 2019-03-25 14:28:19
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Thank you for the information my dude. And this also encourages me to get a function in my lua for when sams roll is up even more. But the conversation has been on shining one and impulse drive. Any chance you can share numbers for that.
Offline
Posts: 80
By Ozaii 2019-03-25 14:29:24
Link | Quote | Reply
 
... It says adjusted for shining one tho right there my dude.
Online
Posts: 1312
By SimonSes 2019-03-25 14:30:22
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Saevel said: »
This was the set and thread regarding MA vs Store TP.

Ozaii said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Ozaii said: »
Really just cuz its not pushing as much white damage as gungnir and also it just feels more reliable then the gungnir ma build.

Store TP and Multi-Attack do the exact same thing, except MA also adds damage.

Something like this, though the exact amounts vary based on if you have Samurai's Roll or not.
2 DA > 2 Store TP > 1 DA > 1 Store TP

Yea but after a certian amount of da it really is just better for the job to build for the x hit builds though. And again the white damage is not as great as gungnir. So going for a 4 hit just feels better off especially when the niqmaddu ring procs and brings you up 1k tp or da procs and brings ya half that. Vs getting 400 from da proc and 800 from the qa attack proc.

ItemSet 352477

Heres the tp set i just made minor adjustments to for shining one. Swap out the pants too if you get good valor augs on pants. I just havent yet. And can swap the telos out for cessence or brutal too maybe. Also use petrov not flamma i just havent changed it. Maybe if the weapon was better off for drg and the goal was just to hit 1k tp then ws then the 5 hit would be better off. But since its goal is to hit 1750 or above you need yhe extra stp for it to perform to its max for the job really.

That set brings drg to 39% da including wyvern buff while maintaining a 4 hit. Cessence brings it to 41%. And 44% with brutal, idk if with cessance and brutal are 4 hit still though but the minor da are meh. Idk i prefer consistancy over a random chance though. You do you. I just dont think the white damage of shining one is worth a 5 hit.
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6918
By Asura.Saevel 2019-03-25 14:36:53
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Now Impulse Drive has the exact opposite effect as Stardiver in that its bad at 1K yet dramatically increases it's damage at 2K (about 3x). Still DRG's have Trish and R15 Trish with Stardiver spam doing more total damage due to sheer volume of WS. The above math works the same for time, buffed 5-hit MA SD build will WS about 2x as often as an Impulse Drive build, plus it builds TP faster due to SD having more hits and Store TP +10 on the weapon.

To explain the Store TP issue,

Base 5-hit requires 46 Store TP in TP set and a 200 return on WS, Samurai's Roll will upgraded this to a 4-hit.

Base 4-hit requires 83 Store TP in Tp set and a 250 return on WS, Samurai's Roll will not upgrade this to a 3-hit and instead just gives extra TP overflow.

/SAM gives 15 Store TP, Trish gives 10 leaving only 21 Store TP required and lots of space to cram in Multi-Attack. Conversely a 4-hit would require droping all that MA to add another 37 Store TP.

Shining One has 0 Store TP and Impulse Drive is a 2 hit WS that you don't wear Store TP or MA gear in, meaning it's going to have a much smaller base return then either 200 or 250. Base it should be around 175~180 return give or take, meaning more Store TP to pack on.

So with a 480 delay weapon we would need 50 Store TP for a 5-hit assuming the weapon gives a 200 TP return. If it's 175 return then we need 55 Store TP. For 4-hit we would need 87 Store TP assuming 250 TP return, if it's a 175 then we would need 106 Store TP. Extra TP just means more hits and slower WS speed.

Raw WS quantity is where weapons like Chango and Trish win, they can vomit WSs like it's nobodies business. Shining One is pretty damn good though.
 Bahamut.Shozokui
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: Shozokui
Posts: 210
By Bahamut.Shozokui 2019-03-25 14:37:34
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Dudes, you should only use Shining One if you don't have R15 Trish.

Your pants should never be the relic +3 pants unless you're high jumping, and you shouldn't use brutal, use dedition instead. Also everyone and their brother has a Dagon breastplate these days, it should be used no matter what. It was already established the only thing that beats dagon is valorous with a 10/30+/30+/7 augment.
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6918
By Asura.Saevel 2019-03-25 14:46:14
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ozaii said: »
Thank you for the information my dude. And this also encourages me to get a function in my lua for when sams roll is up even more. But the conversation has been on shining one and impulse drive. Any chance you can share numbers for that.

Some of the participants I have blocked due to personal attacks they've made in the past so there is a good chance I'm missing context. More ever I was referencing your "Store TP feels better" line followed by your request for math.

I just posted some info about Impulse Drive, It's inflection point is around 1750 TP.

Assuming 50% WSD

First Hit with +1 from second, don't use Fotia for this.
1.0 3.0 5.5

@1K + Moonshade
(1.5 * 1.5) + 1.0 = 3.25

@2K + Moonshade
(3.625 * 1.5) + 1.0 = 6.4375

@1750 + Monshade
(3.0 * 1.5) + 1.0 = 5.5

At 0 MA

2K vs 1K is a 98% increase for a 95% longer wait, now this is understated because I'm not factoring in crits cause I'm at work and doing this in my spare time. Crits should raise that average damage to around 110% ~ 125% or so. So on Impulse Drive you definitely want to WS around 1750~2K with moonshade and still use a 5-hit with Multi Attack cause it's TP return sucks.

You can actually push more damage at 1K by focusing on MA procs instead of WSD btw.

Bahamut.Shozokui said: »
Dudes, you should only use Shining One if you don't have R15 Trish.

Regular Trish should beat it with appropriate sets, and R5 definitely beats it. Again this is because Trish WS's much faster due to build and WS return differences.
 Bahamut.Shozokui
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: Shozokui
Posts: 210
By Bahamut.Shozokui 2019-03-25 14:54:25
Link | Quote | Reply
 
This is unequivocally the best in slot TP for Trishula.

ItemSet 365810
Cape: STR,ATK/ACC,DA
Hands: DEX, ACC, STP
Legs: 10 STR, 30+/30+ Atk/Acc, 7 STP

This set overcaps you on gear haste, gives you a 3-hit with TP return and full buffs, and still gives you a good chunk of multi-attack to work with. You literally WS back to back meaning that your jumps are just used to facilitate TP overflow and increase your stardiver average.

DRG is a high ACC job to begin with, you don't need ACC/DEX augments on your cape or any valorous pieces.

If it looks familiar, it's still the same set as put together more than a year ago by Ryan. Nothing changed.

This is the maximum amount of damage DRG can do in almost every situation.
 Asura.Veikur
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Veikur 2019-03-25 14:54:35
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ozaii said: »
Is that holding tp vs not holding it? Or is that the difference between a da build and a stp build?
Holding vs not holding. But Simon had a good point about gearing Impulse differently based on what your TP is at, so I wanted to accommodate for that.

Holding seems efficient, but I'd have to actually math out the expected damage that you'll actually see. Mostly because, on average, your "1000 TP" is going to be looking more like a 1500 due to moonshade and overflow. And your "3000 TP" is going to be closer to 2900 with Moonshade.
Online
Posts: 1312
By SimonSes 2019-03-25 15:12:39
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bahamut.Shozokui said: »
Also everyone and their brother has a Dagon breastplate these days

ummmm no... not even close
Offline
Posts: 80
By Ozaii 2019-03-25 15:14:42
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bahamut.Shozokui said: »
This is unequivocally the best in slot TP for Trishula.

ItemSet 365810
Cape: STR,ATK/ACC,DA
Hands: DEX, ACC, STP
Legs: 10 STR, 30+/30+ Atk/Acc, 7 STP

This set overcaps you on gear haste, gives you a 2-hit with TP return and full buffs, and still gives you a good chunk of multi-attack to work with. You literally WS back to back meaning that your jumps are just used to facilitate TP overflow and increase your stardiver average.

DRG is a high ACC job to begin with, you don't need ACC/DEX augments on your cape or any valorous pieces.

If it looks familiar, it's still the same set as put together more than a year ago by Ryan. Nothing changed.

This is the maximum amount of damage DRG can do in almost every situation.

This set looks gorgeous. Yea ill have the v legs and such eventually i just havent gotten the augs. But i also lack dagon too tho so i my v mail has 7 stp and like 30 acc or so if i rememeber right. But it lacks atk and str. However does dedition beat out brutals and such? If so thats awesome ill just swap it in rq.
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6918
By Asura.Saevel 2019-03-25 15:22:21
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bahamut.Shozokui said: »
gives you a 2-hit with TP return and full buffs,

You are not getting 500 TP per swing which would require +265 Store TP :TrollFace:. That's a 3-hit that hits MA often enough to require 1~2 attack rounds. With about 15 store TP in WS gear (guessing here) that is 40 before SAM's for 121 with Crooked SAMs (81 Store TP)

167 base TP return for 369 with above SAMs leaving 631, 131 Store TP for a 3-hit, 56 for a 4-hit (your already way past this). Just need 50 Store TP (pre buff) to reach this.

This is what I'm counting for MA
3% QA
10% TA
49% DA

For 1.711 AAPR with 44.5% Single Attack Rate.

That gives us 55% of the time on your first attack after WS you will MA and have enough TP for another WS, 45% of the time you won't MA and will have to wait another attack round upon which has a 55% chance at procing a MA for TP overflow. Looking over gear options available to DRG I can raise the MA rate to 1.85 AAPR at 30% SA rate but I don't think that would give a DPS increase. This is likely the best compromise between MA and Store TP but relies heavily on Crooked Samurai's Roll, with anything less it starts to slip due to defaulting back to a 4-hit. So maybe a toggle in the lua for when your spamming content like Ambuscade / Dyna where you don't have perfect buffs every time.

Looks like this
WS -> Attack Round -> WS -> Attack Round -> Attack Round -> WS
 Asura.Veikur
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Veikur 2019-03-25 15:47:26
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Online
Posts: 1312
By SimonSes 2019-03-25 15:52:34
Link | Quote | Reply
 
You keep assuming something Saevel, instead fo ask or do the math yourself.

Trishula DRG/SAM has 42-45 sTP in WS set. You dont even need Rostam C or Crooked Card to reach 3 hit. Just +7 phantom roll XI Sam roll (+68 store tp).

110 sTP (42 + 68) gives 350 TP return on 4/4 Stardiver.

150 sTP (82 + 68) gives 342 TP per swing.

342 + 342 + 350 = 1034, which means you can miss one hit on Stardiver and still make it. If you use V mail for TP and WS instead of Dagon (or COR have Rostam C), you only need 2 hits on Stardiver.

Also DRG has Conserve TP trait that gives you 26% chance to save some TP (10-200) while WSing.
 Asura.Veikur
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Veikur 2019-03-25 15:53:33
Link | Quote | Reply
 
*** me that was annoying. Crit weaponskills suck to do by hand.
 Asura.Veikur
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Veikur 2019-03-25 16:30:41
Link | Quote | Reply
 
In case anyone wanted to know how Stardiver performed with Shining One:
Offline
Posts: 80
By Ozaii 2019-03-25 21:18:18
Link | Quote | Reply
 
That stardiver at 1k tp is infortunate. But stull neato ty for the onfo veikur.
 Bahamut.Shozokui
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: Shozokui
Posts: 210
By Bahamut.Shozokui 2019-03-25 22:08:57
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Saevel said: »
Bahamut.Shozokui said: »
gives you a 2-hit with TP return and full buffs,

You are not getting 500 TP per swing which would require +265 Store TP :TrollFace:. That's a 3-hit that hits MA often enough to require 1~2 attack rounds. With about 15 store TP in WS gear (guessing here) that is 40 before SAM's for 121 with Crooked SAMs (81 Store TP)

Yeah, you're right. Typo that I didn't catch.
 Fenrir.Skarwind
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Skarwind
Posts: 2845
By Fenrir.Skarwind 2019-03-26 20:54:06
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Been messing with Shining one in some zergs with fly high. I'm really liking it, especially with soul/spirit jumps enormous tp overflow. Constant WS with 2200-3000 tp with it up.

Paired with warcry/moonshade it's really nice. More or less I use high jump every few ws for a further enmity reduction. Let's the tank or other DDs deal with hate instead of me.

I don't have access to R15 Trish yet.
First Page 2 3 ... 73 74 75 76 77
Log in to post.