Sigurd's Descendants: The Art Of Dragon Slaying.

We know exactly how SC's work, they are not erratic and very easy to predict. CT sucks as a SC closer and is only useful as a SC linker, Emp AM has zero effect on WS's and their created SC's.





That won't work. You need to learn how SC's are linked and exactly what those SC properties mean before you can start theorizing on SC's.

SD -> Cam = Fragmentation -> Drakes = Light -> CT = Double Light -> CT = nothing.

It's a four step not a five, you only get one upgrade from a T3 to a double T3 and only if the closing WS's were upgrading from T2's to a T3. You can have as many T1 and T2 SC's present in the chain. The final SC multiplier is based on the number of preceding SC's with T3's being 1.0 + 0.5 x number of preceding SC's, Umbra / Radiance are 2.0 + 0.5 x number of preceding.

A five step light would be
Drakes -> SD -> CT -> Drakes -> CT

The final light would be 1.0 + (0.5 x 3)= 2.5 Multiplier.

It's a weaker SC because your using weaker WS's for the final phases which is where the damage is at.

A five step darkness with Trish would be

Penta -> SD (Transfixion) -> ST (Distortion) -> SD (Darkness) -> SD (Double Darkness / Umbra).

If Umbra then it's 2.0 + (0.5 x 3) = 3.5 Multiplier.

Then add on the AM +SC Damage effect and the fact SD is far stronger then CT and it's simply no contest in total damage.

Comeatmebro:yeah when cornered, I straw man things
Also go back and read why so.

That is what happens when you're severely outclassed.

Automatic actions have much less error than human actions. If you're trying to test something, they're the obvious choice. It's not my fault you're too desperate to give me ***to look past that and be realistic.

Spicy's post outlined all the conclusions drawn in this thread. The only 'misinformation' is that he claimed it was #2. If someone reads all the conclusions posted and decides it's #1, that information is at least available for them to absorb and make that conclusion.

It's more than I would have done, given it's obvious to everyone except you that Rhongomiant is a waste.

A straw man is misrepresenting the argument. Calling into question something which you specifically stated is not straw manning. Your average kill time * stated number of kills is over 6 hours, and you said you were not terrored once through all of them earlier this thread.

Fastest way to solo kill Quetz, august cornelia seltheus arciela1 yoran. Fight from behind n so no roars, no terors. Yoran resists sleep, selt and arciela spam TP move curagas.

Ok great Saevel thanks for that breakdown.

Can it be isolated now and factored to show on a 1000 sample of sc?
then use that to see performance?

Yeah about that:

It was a straw-man from the moment you brought up something unrelated since we were talking about Guide.

You edited that in, 3 days later, after seeing Umo's post, whether or not that is what you did. I am happy to concede that terror is a moot point, as tail tanking would explain it. I was under the impression flail would make trust healers problematic, clearly that is wrong.

It doesn't change much though, as the multitude of problems with your test parameters have already been outlined by several people. It carries no weight.

You mean the guide that Spicy went out of his way to edit, so it would show your simulation differences and specifically outline which gear sets are involved to create them? The guide has all information you've supported in it. It's his guide, he's welcome to draw his own conclusions from the information. You seem to be unable to understand that you're using only subjective evidence to support Rhongomiant being better.

Read and address all these discrepancies and stop deflecting them.

Im not wasting my time on catering your "rant"

I repeat, The guide is excellent over all.
The only issue I found and started the debate and Austar made the simulation (which I'm thankful for) was because of Rho Description

If you think these statements highlighted over and over are okay then you are helping with misinformation.

Also QA set must be addressed like what Ejin Did in SAM guide.

Learn this

https://i1.wp.com/rednanaki.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/renkei15.jpg



You don't need to memorize which WS's are where, that's silly as BG already provides that info in a huge list.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Weapon_Skills

Instead memorize the relationships between the different groups and the directions of the arrows between them. The four in the top right corner are the most important as those are T2's you move between until your ready to upgrade to T3's.


Only need to do it once. SC damage is very well known, the WS that forms the SC is used as the base damage that has MDMG added and is then multiplied by the SC multiple and then multiplied by the SC damage.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Skillchain#Skillchain_Damage

And I was wrong about the multipliers, it's +0.5 on the first upgrade and +0.25 for each additional so 5 step double light would be a 1.75 + 2.0 closing SC multipliers while the 5 step double dark / Umbra would be 1.75 + 3.0.

How much stronger, on average, is SD then CT? If we say 40% (bonus TP doesn't do much for CT) and set CT to be 100 we get

100 * 1.75 = 175 + 100 = 275 for first CT total damage
100 * 2.0 = 200 + 100 = 300 for second CT total damage

575 Total damage units for the closing two WS / SC's for Rhon Light

SD = 100 * 1.4

140 * 1.75 = 245 + 140 = 385
140 * 3.0 = 420 + 140 = 560

945 Total damage units for the closing two WS / SC's for Trish Umbra

And that's without counting the small bonus to SC damage from AM effect. Should be kinda obvious that Trish crush's Rhon in SC damage, the Aeonics generally beat everything else by a large margin when your doing SC's.

A difference of 1-2% on paper with no late AM3 or TP waste and no skillchain bonus from trishula is not a win. We can argue this until the end of time, but you're the only person who thinks it is. Thus, we have a subjective situation until the time arrives that a better modeled simulation or a properly controlled test can be done. Spicy's guide, his choice to interpret it how he likes, he went with what he believes(and what the vast majority of posters in this thread believe).

The simulation is used to estimate damage, but to be informed users, we have to consider what it can and can't model. That means the numbers have to be taken in context. If it wins by 2% in the simulation, but factors unavailable to the simulation estimate a ~5% boost to trishula.. it doesn't win.

We are not denying the simulation results. We are interpreting them, as explained in my prior paragraph.

Carrot isn't a bot, he's been around for 10 years. I don't even particularly like him as a person, we butted heads plenty on BG when we(among others) were actually figuring out all these formulas you're relying on today. However, he's a very smart individual and you're doing him a disservice with your constant insults. He's been topic banned, as you will likely end up, so he cannot post directly.

You do realize he was saying that rhongomiant gains more than trishula does when underbuffed, correct? Because it doesn't happen, I agree.

You are not having 'half a miso'. The benefit of miso is HP and magic evasion. The defense is equivalent to no more than ~6% physical damage taken. Very few relevant monsters do meaningful physical damage, and the ones that do will be done in a hybrid set. If you want to argue the benefits, you would need to be showing which weapon does better in a hybrid set. Could just as easily say rhongomiant is costing your WHM some of their af3 pants mp return, because nonlethal physical damage will almost certainly be overcured.

Who does relevant content with non-RMEA dps, exactly..? If you're good enough to do relevant content, your DPS have aeonics. All aftermaths overwrite afterglow.

It's not BS.. almost nobody reading this will have 15 str 4 wsd valorous. It's another circumstance where the effort outweighs the 'benefits'. You're struggling to show that Rhongomiant is actually better, meanwhile it not only requires 2-3x the man hours to make, but a significant amount longer to gear. This is relevant, particularly if the person has more than one job.

money - noun - the assets, property, and resources owned by someone or something; wealth.

I mean, you're clearly trying to imply spicy buys gil or something of the sort, but maybe you should be less desperate to insult. It obviously was referring to gil, and by definition it still fits.

@Saevel:

Okay great but what about the proc from SD and DB?
How to factor them with just one sample?
if you have the 5 step SC isn't it more logical to make as many samples as possible to even out all the anomalies from procs?

Thats what my base research was about.
if it can be singled out from just one cycle then great.
but the margin of SD for example on Quet is between 7k-19k unbuffed and only haste capped/pet out

carrot != spicy, just fyi

It is not relevant at all if you're a serious DRG and Im more than sure any serious DRG would go for it.


No, what I'm implying that you shouldn't even have this up on any Guide at all because you can literally make this weapon while afk and do ambuscade for 15 months.

i’m aware of that, but that doesn’t mean they’re the same person. i was saying it in regards to what thorny said anyways

No.

SC damage doesn't have anomalies, it's a very consistent formula. What's inconsistent is the final closing WS or the day / weather bonus as the T3's can have four elements they can proc on.

T3 SC's attack using four elements with the targets lowest resistance being used to determine which one to roll against. Light / Radiance attacks with Light, Fire, Thunder, Wind damage and so any of those day / weather bonus's can proc. Dark / Umbra attacks with Dark, Water, Ice, Earth damage and can proc on any of those. These bonus's are percentages and apply to all SC's equally so we can effectively remove them from the equation.

If you are talking about critical hits, those are also very well known the same as MA procs. We just determine the average and apply them as an average. When it comes to SC damage, Aeonics easy beat everything else, it's what they were designed for.

When it comes to forming SC's we break WS's into two categories, Closers and Linkers. Closers are really strong WS's that have a property enabling them to close a powerful SC, they form the end point of the SC and you work backwards with Linkers to form the chain. The viability and power of a SC will be determined by the closer. Potent closers are things like Upheaval, Rudras, StarDiver, Torcleaver and such. Your double light SC is using mediocre WS's as closers and thus producing mediocre results.

Okay Great, what is recommended then for a proper field test with the mentioned parameters before?

And should it be even an issue discussing performance? Why Spreadsheets aren't encompassing this factor then? same goes for Sims.
If its that predictable wouldn't it be easy to generate?
Also you mentioned weather/day and so far adding more elements to the nature of SC. hence I resorted of treating it as an erratic element.

Just for the purposes of this post, I will set aside skillchain damage, AM3 loss, disengaged time, and every other factor that favors Trishula, and take the simulation numbers at face value without context.

Okay, so let's say you're great at farming abyssea. You can finish all 3 stages in 12 hours. You farm 3 million gil an hour consistantly. You do not dislike any of the content involved. This is pretty near best case for someone making a Rhongomiant.

Now, you can spend 12 hours on abyssea, 15 hours on base NMs, and 60 hours farming currency. That's a total of 87 hours involved in making a Rhongomiant. Since there's no meaningful supply of taupe stones on AH, let's add another 10 hours making the WS valorous. Since you're counting on a good QA valorous mail and hose in your highest difference scenario('kat stp trish vs kat qa valorous'), we can add another 50 hours worth of gil to get 150 dark matters. With your QA set That's a total investment of 147 hours to make a weapon that does 5483 DPS.

I can make an Aeonic from scratch, counting beads, in 10 hours. That's probably not realistic for most people, so let's use the gil value and a more typical beads value: 200m and 25 hours of bead farming(2 quetz an hour). Instead of QA valorous, you use DA valorous, with a much lighter investment of ~5 hours of stone farming. Both setups still need stardiver sets, but this one doesn't need a Camlann's set. This gets you 5324 DPS.

You're looking at a difference of 50 hours invested, for a 2.98% gain in damage. If that were something every 'serious' player was willing to do, we never would've had people running around in NQ adhemar. Prior to price drop, how many did you see in full HQ..? It's comparable time spent : DPS gain.

Now, throw in the differences we disregarded earlier and consider that even if you are right and Rhongomiant is better, it's by a factor of less than 2.98% in these circumstances. That's a completely horrible rate of return on your effort. It's perfectly reasonable to mention the effort, even without assuming it is worse. If you have a shell capable of farming Aeonic without paying, the gap increases from 50 hours to over 100.

If you ever do anything that requires self skillchaining, you still need a Trishula. If you do skillchains with a partner, you still need Trishula. In these cases, the gap increase to a full 147 hours. If you farm gil slower than 3m/hour or spend more than 12 hours in abyssea, it gets even higher. It's anything but a modest amount of effort.

Ok here is another breakdown if you want:

Rhongomiant Path:

A. You farm everything and buy nothing:

90 hours + (3 Hours Daily) ==> One month and its done.
Use VW Event and farm 1500 HMP or Ambuscade and be done in 15 months doing nothing but 26k HM there.

I don't see anyone farming Dark matter unless 4-box or got a static but I digress.
Wait for DM event and spam your Valo till you get it if you want and you only need legs and body.

Also you don't need QA, DA is still fine as is.. and Taupe is the most abundant stone on AH with 10k a stack as we speak.
I don't know about you but usually you can farm 500 Taupe Stones in less than an hour spamming Tusk in Resi on SCH.

So technically speaking its only 90 Hours what you posted was very extreme and assumed said player will 4-Box DM.

B. Farm Gil and Buy everything:

15 Hours in Base NMs
2 Hours in Abyssea (Bought pops or LS help)

Price Tag 250M and done in 20 Hours

--------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------

Trishula Path:

A. You farm everything and buy nothing:

Have a clear group willing to help and be done in 2-3 days max with a competent group assuming 3 hours daily thats 9 Hours.
Beads from scratch 10 hours
Total Hours 19

B. Farm Gil and Buy everything:

200-250M and can be Merced in 12 Hours.

I don't see any reason why it should be an issue or mentioned in Guide.

You forgot all of the gear needed to make Camlann's viable. I did not assume they will 4 box DM, I assumed they will buy them using their normal gil farming speed. If waiting for campaigns, could easily be unable to make the weapon beat trishula(by your standards) for months or even years.

Never mind that the cost of the tradable components alone is 180M. Find me someone willing and able to get me in and out of abyssea in 2 hours with 50 chloris buds, 50 ulhuadshi's fangs, and 75 dragua's scales for 70M and I'll buy every single empyrean from them.

It would appear I'm not a serious DRG. Because I would absolutely not waste my time and gil on Rhongomiant. <,<

I know people who actually did this and you know some of them.
500k-1M per pop and you will find them flocking your way, its not like it was never done before.

You can be literally anything you want to be.
This won't change the fact that Rho is a solid weapon and definitely the guide shouldn't discourage others to make it.

I've thrown gil at empyreans plenty of times, I've never come close to 2 hours for 70M. When I made all my Verethragnas, I spent 3 weeks shouting all day and warping back and forth in between other content to get 150 buds. With the reduced population, your numbers are completely laughable.

You probably could complete it with purchased pops for 70M, but it definitely wouldn't be in 2 hours. Probably wouldn't even be 12.

Okay, take 10 friends to abby build your lights or wait for Event capped lights.
Spam boxes and open chests for KI's
And you will have 10 pops ready to go with possible 20 drops each.
It was done before and I saw it first hand, I helped with it even.

Also according to math it should be done in 17 and I did mention 20 Hours if you want. not 2 Hours in Abyss you can stretch it to 5 np.

Ok, so I did each stage in 2 hours with 10 friends. That's 66 hours of effort, which is drastically more than my estimate of 12.
Does taking advantage of others' generosity remove the effort or something..?

I don't know how you operate socially, but some of us are more than okay to help out.
Its not like we've been playing this game for 3 months.
Some even married from here.

Basic economics, time and effort have value. You could collaboratively spend 66 hours working toward a DRG's 3% dps boost, or collaboratively spend 66 hours knocking out 2 master trials for everyone. Make a gambanteinn for your shell's main WHM. Farm 150k nyzul tokens for everyone. Do a full aeonic for the entire group. All farm gil and give it to the same person so they can buy Trishula.

Yes, you reduced your personal involvement, but you did it at the expense of everyone else who came. I didn't say it was a bad thing to do, I said it didn't effect the cost of the weapon.