Sigurd's Descendants: The Art Of Dragon Slaying.

ItemSet 374115
uncapped attack swap in Regal ring, AF legs, Valorous head/body (STR WSD).

Can use 5/5 Gleti if you are really over attack cap

Wouldn't fencer build do better for drg since you are going to be getting haste from wyvern anyways. Ws sooner. No need to worry about dw. Not much fencer bonus but still pretty nice.

Obviously. DW on DRG is big mistake.

Yes normally doing savage blade /war or even just /sam, but if you were DW for some reason I added dagger

Ah that makes sense then.

Been using this for TP,but would love input
DAMail={ name="Valorous Mail", augments={'Accuracy+24','"Dbl.Atk."+5','Attack+11',}}
ValorSTP={ name="Valorous Hose", augments={'Accuracy+30','"Store TP"+8','MND+6','Attack+3',}}

This is what I personally use for fencer setup.

ItemSet 379330

Probably better items to swap in but I like some protections on myself and wyvern.

Can swap out the legs for another piece if you wanted as long as you can still cap gear haste.

And obviously flamma heads amazing but ptero head also helps cap haste. Can always just remove hjjarandi for other options. I think 3i threw this together with the idea of tanking onych in mind. Prob can be adjusted with new gear.

I might adjust it tomorrow and then share that.

R20 Gleti's body and hands and Flamma+2 head would probably be ideal outside of obvious Nyame path A.

If you are subbing war instead of nin for savage drg you are trading 200 tp bonus for capped delay reduction, higher tp on jumps, offhand weapon stats, and offhand weaponskill damage (which normally isn't a lot but drg gets a lot of wsd traits). You also don't need any dw gear if /nin so the penalty of dw is less on drg than say if you dw on war. I don't think this is a good trade off.

Pretty sure if you sub nin and dw you get less tp per jump. And you can cap delay without dw at all. And dw gives more tp feed to the mob. However that last bit is not really important much unless you are aiming for subtle blow.

You are right on losing the offhand stats though. But overall thats mostly what you are gaining. And shadows. For sub nin dw setup.

Where when you sub war you also get the berserk and aggressor and other war abilities and the fencer on top.

Drg has 78.75% haste with single hand sword. 80% with DW, but your tp per hit is drastically cut with DW and over tp gain is way higher with single hand.

Wsd trait doesn't matter for any offhand weapons kill damage. It adds as much on main as in offhand.

Overall better tp gain and 200tp bonus easily win with what DW can offer.

Edit: oh /war is also 10%da, which improve tp gain even more.

I don't think you know how jumps work. I would look into that more, if you do you'll understand why dw helps jumps a ton compared to single weild.

Simon ternion has triple attack and wsd, that will offer more than 10 da from war. You also ignored some of my other points. I'll break it down like this and use only logic.

On war main fencer is meh compared to other builds unless you have a dnc.
War gets way more tp bonus from fencer than drg.
Drg needs less dw than war so they are hurt less in terms of tp gain, especially if you sub dnc (don't even need to use samba).
Drg gets tons of other perks when dw that war doesn't get such as bonus wsd and bonus to jumps (especially with MA procs).

Given these claims it seems logical to assume that if war gets more out of fencer than drg and even then it takes a special scenario for fencer to be optimal it stands to reason that dw is much better for drg than fencer.

Give it a shot and go parse against yourself on neak or something using both fencer and dw build and let me know how that goes (actually do it I don't mean use spreadsheets).

First of all Naegling WAR Fencer even without Haste Samba has probably higher raw damage (without self sc) than R15 Chango lol With Haste Samba its not even close.

Second of all you would use /DNC not /NIN for DW on DRG, if you want DW at all.

Third of all WAR has 68.75% haste with Fencer build. DRG has 78.75% You take 15%DW just to add 1.25% delay reduction

Assuming Ternion+1 R15 your round will be 83delay and 120TP base. Naegling solo is 51 delay and 75TP. So Naegling is ~88.23TP per sec, while Naegling/Ternion is 86.74

10%DA is at least as good as 4%TA. Now probably the most important thing that you completely underestimate. You have no idea how much stronger is 200TP over 5%WSD for Savage on DRG. Its not even close. I actually havent realized this myself.
5% WSD is barely 3% increase for Savage and 2.7% increase to whole DPS. 200TP bonus boosts Savage by 14.5% and whole dps by 12.6%! Fencer Naegling /WAR on DRG is actually the highest raw DPS build on this job. I havent even realized this until now, because I was always checking it with /sam, because I assumed you would just swap between Polearm and Sword on Segment farming. If you only want to use Savage tho, then /WAR is miles ahead.


I dont have luxury to summon full party and full buffs to do such tests. I dont have time for this too. You can do it yourself and post video if you think math is lying.

[EDIT: whoops Simon just sorta answered some of this in advance while I was writing, but gonna post it anyway - anyone have different opinions?]

1) So, speaking of Sword TP gain and when to use Savage... If you want a slashing option, yes, obviously makes sense. But with no particular weapon type weakness, when else are you all finding it worth using Naegling on DRG? FWIW, my other options are Trishula (R15) and Shining One (no Ryuno for me, no plans to make it).

I have LS mates who are thrilled about Sword DRG on Dyna wave 1~2 and focused mostly on big WS damage. I tried it briefly but honestly wasn't as impressed with Naegling/SB in practice versus Trish(R15)/Stardiver spam. Mostly, it comes down to sword TP feeling slow compared to polearm (though DRG is always a little different from others due to jumps).

But that's just my quick "this feels off" sense, and not enough data to actually establish WS frequency over time. I'm no super-pro DRG, just been getting into it fairly recently but I have high end TP/WS sets for the relevant polearm/sword setups (other than Gleti's that I do not yet have). Should I be more gung-ho about Sword than I am?

Is subjob enough to really change the choice of polearm vs sword (if no piercing/slashing consideration)? I was on /SAM when I started messing around with Naegling on the fly, which I realize is not ideal versus (a) /WAR (subjob strength Fencer good enough to make that difference?) - and I also could see how Berserk may make a real difference if uncapped atk, (b) or DW with another offhand for stats/extra WS hit.


2) For blunt/staff options... which staff?

Simon I don't trust your math because you've been wrong many times over in your sheets to the point where it would be a mistake for me to take your numbers seriously. The mandau video you posted a while back is the most obvious offender, idk how you wouldn't automatically question mandau being best dagger even if your sheets told you so. This isn't personal or anything, I think you are correct a lot more often than you aren't but this is why I use real world data and not sheets.

Capu, from all the real world experience I've seen naegling is just the strongest option on drg in nearly every scenario. Just from neak testing (this is before gleti) you would need to land every max hit on SD AND also SC every single time to beat sb spam with sword and that would only win barely. Now I know gleti changed this a bit but you also won't be able to take advantage of that gear with Trish as often as you would with naeg for obvious reasons. I have had parses from wave 3 where sb would avg over 60k and that was without optimal buffs. If you can't SC then just throw spear in the trash because it's swordgoon all day. Dw tp gain on drg is actually incredibly fast and jumps will give you 3k tp more often than not and you have multiple of them. This is to say nothing about offhanding something like a kc if such a build is viable (many times it is).

Anyways I don't have anything else to add and idc if I convince anyone. Play however you want and think is fun. I just had some disagreements on some points and wanted to add my own opinion is all.

Is there anything to put in that lonely offhand slot for DRG/WAR? Other than... Legion Scutum for Enm -2? :P

And I guess Malignance is the choice for staff, right? I think I have that, Reikokon, and Gozuki Mezuki... but maybe I'm overlooking something.

I don't think Trish, even at R15, is going to give you the big average WS that you're going to see from using Naegling & Savage Blade (regardless of subjob). However, Trish has it's advantages as mentioned earlier. Shining One & Impulse Drive would be more comparable in terms of similarities in how the weapons play.

Savage Blade build is enormously strong for dragoon as far as raw damage, have seen LS mates use it, but I still find it kind of awkward to build TP, I usually just use Trishula for the constant skillchains, and once I R15 my Ryunohige that'll probably be my zerg weapon for aeonics or Ambuscade where geomancy isn't nerfed. If I'm using Naegling I'm on warrior with a Fencer build. Sword and board warrior is just, I don't know, more appealing that a single-wielding dragoon lol.


Interesting stuff.

You can obviously discredit me, because I was wrong several times, but this doesn't automatically proves I am now. Mandau situation was specific because there was tons of new stuff then, Gleti had both high str and PDL and it also wasn't so obvious to not believe it. Mercy is 5.0 ftp and with a relic bonus it's comparable to 8.4ftp Avg Rudra ftp without tp bonus dagger is similar or less, so I haven't got automatic red flag popping out.

Anyway this is not about sheet.
Single hand /war has better tp generation.
Single hand /war has better ws damage at same tp threshold.
DW only advantage is higher TP from jumps, but jumps are on too long cooldown to make significant enough difference. Unless you make 20 sec Neak and you have fresh jump cooldowns for each attempt, then I can understand how you fall into a conclusion that DW is better

There's just zero chance your math on 200 TP bonus being that good is correct. You're leaving something out like other offhand stats or the weapon itself adding to ws damage. I think you are seriously overestimating how good /war is over /dnc. Also I am not trying to discredit you (I mentioned how more often than not you are correct), I was merely pointing out that errors using sheets are common and can give you incorrect results and I don't even need to go into the other obvious red flags you had when sheeting mandau because who cares at this point. I believe there was something recently regarding crits on sheets too but I can't remember exactly.

Point I'm making is if you want to see the real numbers go do it in real time. That 200 TP bonus figure won't be represented in real world scenarios due to many factors. I disagree on both /war having better TP generation and ws damage, but like I said before play how you want, I don't think I'll change your mind and I don't think you will change mine.

Never knew that the offhand added to the jumps tp. Thats neat to know. Was just making the assumption based off of delay of main hand.

Also speaking of k club, am assuming it'll use a set similar to ryu am3 stp? What about defense sets?

That increase from 200tp wasn't vs /dnc with offhand. It was how much it increase one hand build.

Also I'm not sure what can be wrong here. Savage is 4.0 ftp at 1000 and 10.25 at 2000tp. Even if you have some tp overflow to around 1300 tp and moon shade, you will have effective tp around 1550. That's around 7.4375 ftp With around 40%WSD that's around 10.4
Now 1 more from 2nd hit and around 0.5 from multiattack proc. So total around 12.

200tp between 1000 and 2000 tp is +1.25ftp and with WSD it's 1.75 fTP DW is +1fTP but with less base damage and less attack if we are talking about Ternion. Also with lower accuracy cap. It also transfer possible multi attack proc on sub hand instead of main hand, so those possible 2nd ma proc is weaker, because again Ternion has much less base damage than Naegling.

It's basic math, not complex sheet.

If you really want to dual wield should delvl dnc to 39 to lower the amount of dual wield you get so you have less of a penalty to your tp gain.

Can you explain what you mean by "transfer"? MA still applies to mainhand, and is calculated regardless of whether there's a MA proc on the offhand, right? Yes, Ternion has lower base dmg - but... so what? Extra hits = extra hits, I don't follow how that waters down Naegling and the damage that comes from MH in any way.

Perhaps I'm just missing the point you are trying to make (and perhaps it's even a matter of me not realizing something about how MA mechanics work). In any case, appreciate the discussion from everyone.

(I'm also not even thinking about the question of "Fencer or DW, which is better?" Purely about helping me understand the quoted sentence)

IIRC, in the multi attack priority check; Main > Off > Additional

So instead of both potential multi attack procs using Naeglings base damage, the second potential proc will always use Ternions instead.

It's an issue that very slightly tempers how amazing the TP Bonus offhands can truly be.

When single wielding if a ws has at least 2 hits normal DA/TA/QA has 2 chances to proc (mythic is limited to 1 proc) which will both happen with the one weapon you have.

When dual wielding the mainhand would only have 1 chance at a multi attack proc and offhand getting the other chance, of course offhand also gets to add an extra swing to the ws regardless of multi attack.

Thanks, well explained (Jakey especially!)

Now I understand the point, and didn't realize that. Though I guess we'd have to see the math to understand how that "loss" of potential single wield Naegling MA damage compares to the guaranteed (but lower base dmg) offhand hit from DW.

At capped fSTR, it's like 13-14% weaker per hit.

N: 463
T: 399

And frankly, from that light, it looks really good for Dual Wield. There's a free guaranteed hit, which should offset the 13% weaker hit, yeah?

But 200 TP Bonus on Savage Blade is just stupid. Even with WSD and TA from Ternion included, plus the free additional hit...

Average fTP:
DW: 6.71671875+1.15+0.3749+1.0005+0.326163 = 9.56828175
SW: 7.834375+0.3841+1.15+0.3841 = 9.752575

Along with that, roughly half your auto attacks are going to be ~28% weaker with no WSC to offset the 54 base damage lead Naegling has.

Beyond THAT, Gleti's, PDL collars, and PDL traits are a thing now and attack is even more important than ever with Geomancy being nerfed in everything new. So Berserk is a pretty big consideration, even with Naeglings's inherent attack aid.

So, with a 2% weapon skill and 14% auto attack damage lead... The only real question left is that when berserk isn't a factor, which build hits 1000TP faster?

Find out when someone else has the time to math that out! :D

Non-optimized sets, buuuuut:
SW: 0.87s (204.0706395/r) (3.921s)
Delay 240
DA 0.35
TA 0.02

DW: 1.38s (276.27624375/r) (4.416s)
Delay 352.75
DA 0.25
TA 0.07

Looks like single wield builds TP ~11% faster. Jumps are gonna favor DW due to how the Jump TP+ stuff works, and as such, temper that lead... but cooldowns are cooldowns.

I use Malignance pole for physical WS and Reikikon for Cataclysm .