IiPunch - Monk Guide

While technically your statement is true looking from weapon damage to weapon damage, Tojil has 50% PDT for the first 25%, so weaponskilling is not advisable besides generating aftermath.

Pretty sure it's still better damage to weaponskill. Trying to remember the numbers off the top of my head, but I want to say auto attacks are around 200-300 with formless strikes, and victory smite is around 2k during that first 25%. Anyone else have a rough estimate of their auto attacks and weaponskills for Tojil during the first 25%?

This might be true in a low man situation where you are not likely to have the buffs to fully overcome his defense. In a high buff situation, your average weaponskill is capable of dealing about 4-5k dmg. You don't even need to run with 18 people to get those amount of buffs either. Even with PDT -50% you are still dealing 2-2.5k as long as you have the buffs to support it.

We also don't see the full effect of the +50% magic dmg increase during the first 25% since Formless inflicts a -20~40% penalty to your damage depending on its Level.

I've parsed many tojil runs since 8/2013 and always ***on mnks who ws during formless/HF. I dont think you can put an exact number during this phase as there's always human errors. Often i see people engaging late or not being rdy to fight or jumping the gun and fighting it before it being positioned. I suggest just not ws during the first 25% unless you want to activate am3 from a weapon.

Even if your individual numbers are higher, the SC damage should be extremely high during the first 25%. I'm still not sold on WS actually hurting your damage though, but it's still worth it for SC purposes either way.

On tojil, at least on paper, 100-74% with HF, formless, zerk and impetus all up. No weaponskill wins by a fair chunk, but this assumes you don't get stunned or lahar goes off and that you don't sc if you go the ws route.

I know I've done over 2k weaponskills during first 25% even on 6-man. However, with Vere's Aftermath 3, I can see crits that go up to 800-900. Non-crit, non-ODD auto hits are around 200-300 if I'm not mistaken, with 5/5 Formless Strikes. These numbers are just kinda what I remember from my last Tojil run which was Sunday night though, so take it with a grain of salt.

Can you show the paper math?

Regardless, especially for a 6man group, you're going to have a huge chunk of SC damage. Our conqueror war ended up having 20% of the parse on SC damage once.

Your 200-300 per hit is way off, maybe if you don't have any buffs and don't crit at all, then that might be close the mark. Your melee dps should be average 1600 during HF, so that would be 3200 dmg instead of a weaponskill, which is usually around the 2000-2500 mark during 100-74% sometimes less, but sometimes more, the average ws should certainly be in that range.

Only other advice I can give, is try it and see, play with HF builds in the spreadsheets, it should win on paper.

This assumes you don't get stunned or lahar goes off and that you don't sc if you go the ws route.

The sc route however, does sound interesting and I might play with that if I get the chance.

What? lol
I think you misunderstood me, but I'll re-quote myself just in case:
So yeah, non-crit, non-ODD hits are hits that don't crit and don't deal double damage. Those hits are around 200-300 each if I remember right.

Pretty sure there was talk about not WSing during because it takes away from attk rounds because of the delay after WSing and such.

Yes. There is a delay when you weaponskill. This is known as Forced Delay, which for JAs and WSs is 2 seconds (Source)

Then, you also lose the hundred fists delay reduction between that weaponskill and the next auto attack. I'm not sure how to calculate this to give an extra time loss, but I could guess that it's roughly 1 second. *This should be verified. If it's closer to 2 seconds, that will drastically change things*

Going with that guess, we can assume you lose about 3 seconds of auto attacks by using a weaponskill.

According to Diasetsu, using Hundred Fists with Verethragna is 43.5 attack rounds per minute, or 0.725 per second. (Source) If this still holds true (need to verify 119 Vere has same delay as 99 Vere and that there haven't been any increased Martial Arts effects since September of 2012), then you lose 2.175 attack rounds by using Victory Smite during Hundred Fists.

So getting back to WS or not during hundred fists... it's really a matter of this: can 2 attack rounds do more damage than your weaponskill?

I think during Tojil's first 25% of health, as Dramatica has stated, skillchain damage is still going to be high, so if you are going to open or close a skillchain (very likely for 6-man group), then using the weaponskill is definitely going to be better. If you are not, then you need to look at your average damage per hit during formless strikes and then look at your average weaponskill damage during the first 25% of his health. Then, based on your gear, calculate the number of hits you get (on average) per attack round.
Compare (average # of hits per round) x (damage per hit) to (average WS damage) and see what you get.

Sorry I must have missed your part about 1 brd buffs somewhere along the line, that explains your 200-300 per hit and very low ODD crits, sounds like for low man, it's better to go the sc route. Mainly because of the lower amount of buffs you receive and don't have 5 other DD competing for sc...

18 man runs I've done, the melee only during formless always top the parses against ws monks.

I wish I had the numbers from 18-man Tojil so we could compare numbers, but ever since Delve went to low-man, I haven't bothered to 18-man again. Of course horns have plummeted in price from everyone spamming it low-man, but now I'm getting off topic.

Even with lower buffs, 200-300 per hit sounds pretty low to me, especially when you figure you're getting +50% magic damage (even if there's a penalty). What is the wait time between attack rounds with hundred fists up (Delay*.2?)? And how much delay = 1 second of wait time?

I would still WS to close a skillchain, but outside of that, I'm pretty sure you're lowering your damage.

Actually the horn are in higher price than before, because before they lowmaned delve, they added horns as relic upgrade. Pre relic upgrade, horns were bellow 1m, because eminent staff had completely destroyed atinian, the main recipe for horns. All mats were bellow 1m pre relic upgrade, even as low as 500k.

What food should i use in new delve with 834 acc 927 att prebuffs?

Probably depends on the mob you're fighting.

hydra kofte, bring antacids and riverfins/bream+1 to swap to for the eva heavy mobs. consider food to be a gear slot that based on its stats should be valued as such.

I believe its 60 delay = 1 second so should be delay/60 for seconds.

Min delay for h2h is 96 (roughly 1.5 seconds). It's determined from the base 480 delay. If weapon delay is taken into account Vere would be 106, Oatixur/Tinhaspa 115 and Spharai 113.2

Hundred Fists is -75% delay after Martial Arts reductions and it can break the 96 delay cap.

Hundred Fists delay using Vere is 82.75
Hundred Fists delay using Tantra Cyclas +2 with Vere is 81.5
Hundred Fists delay using Oatixur/Tinhaspa is 94
Hundred Fists delay using Tantra Cyclas +2 with Oatixur/Tinhaspa is 92.75
Hundred Fists delay using Spharai is 91.5
Hundred Fists delay using Tantra Cyclas +2 and Spharai is 90.25

If my math is wrong please feel free to correct me.

Math isn't wrong. I was just going to say for consistency, if you're going to show a decimal place for Spharai, then technically Vere would be 106.2 and Oatixur/Tinhaspa would be 115.2 as well.
480 + 51 = 531.... 531 x (1 - 0.8) = 106.2
480 + 96 = 576.... 576 x (1 - 0.8) = 115.2


I'll have to pay closer attention to my damage next time I do Tojil. Although, it also might be that people here are looking at all their auto attack hits and remembering a higher average than 200-300 because they are thinking about their crits as well. I dunno. I'll just have to look at the numbers to confirm.

On a related, but different topic, I would actually prefer saving my hundred fists for the last 25%. Not because it's mathematically superior (because it's not) but because if something happens during the first 75%, like one of the melee dies, then there is a strong chance that our SV songs will wear off before we finish. Thus, if magic haste was to not be re-applied, hundred fists would be a lot more beneficial during that time, than at the very beginning when you have full buffs.
Then again, the argument can be made that if you don't hundred fists at the beginning, it could make the fight last longer to wear songs are wearing off from that... so catch-22?!

So on an unrelated note, for the new T4/5 and mega bosses (specifically Yorcia), what sets are people using for victory/shijin? T1-3 my damage is normal/high, but for t4/5 it just takes a big dump. I switch to acc sets for them. Buffs are normally madrigal x2/marche x2/sole sushi.

Edit: Phone typos.

You'd prolly wanna post your set so you can be advised if your doing it right or wrong boss.

Victory Smite
Normal
ItemSet 316426

Light Acc (may not be accurate. Not home to check)
ItemSet 321741

Max Acc
ItemSet 321457

Shijin
Normal
ItemSet 295832

Acc
ItemSet 305019

Edit: Manibozho jerkin would be another option, obviously.

Yeah, against tojil, without Lunge set, it takes 2 lunges or 1 lunge + 2 swipes to proc.

with a decent lunge set, you can proc with 1 lunge or 2 swipes. Which makes it even easier to proc and kill.

ItemSet 321889
that's what I am using, can be improved.
the feet rank C give MAB+15

From todays's VU : The new H2H is gimp and there is a headgear that is a sligth upgrade for VS (+1 str and ,early useless stats).

Oh look, Pchan declaring another version update is a waste of time.

And the sun still rose in the east this morning, so nothing interesting or new to report.