IiPunch - Monk Guide

I also addressed your stupid casting argument several arguments ago. A minimum of 10 seconds between TP doesn't mean much when the typical DD is hugging that 10 seconds and MNK isn't even getting the mob to 1000 tp until over 25 seconds.

I literally went out and did dyna wave2 bosses on MNK in the last month. A PLD tank with 2 MNK DPS was resulting in consistantly over 23 seconds per tp, up to over 30 seconds. You may not need it with how overpowered players currently are, but even near-braindead healers can maintain that.

Let me ask you, with all your self-professed knowledge of game mechanics, a question:

Given a fight where time limit is irrelevant, is there a factor more important than allowable reaction time before death when determining winrate? If so, what is it?

So how much fiber should a monk have in their diet to get invited to Omen ?

According to my testing monk needs about 100% Dietary Fiber and 59% Subtle Blow.

Currently doesn't exist in the game, all fights have a time limit and many events have a global time limit.


Yes, it's called player skill. Reaction time has a diminishing effect after about 6~7 seconds. Unless your arguing that you healers are so brain dead and incompetent they can't cast curaga III / IV once per 7 seconds. Also no matter how long that duration is, idiots will be idiots and get one shoted, I've seen it happen far to often.


So you admit to deliberately using to low times to inflate the difference? And once every 30s seems about right for our own MNK testing, and the fights do actually take much longer. All MNK does is slow fights down, less damage output and less damage intake. That time is extremely important because it places an absolute minimum on the time between TP moves and can be exploited by overloading the NM's AI such that it only use's 3000TP when it should have 6000TP effectively halving it's TP use. Reducing the NM's potential TP use is no different the wearing Subtle Blow II, only it can be applied to an entire alliance. Overloading AI is extremely powerful when NM's are at their most dangerous, under 25% HP where they use TP every 1000 instead of every 3000. Now instead of using it at 1000TP your can effectively feed 6000TP in that same period because their AI's simply can't react fast enough.

I never said that wasn't a perfectly viable strategy, go back and check any of my posts to be certain. There are many strategies in this game, as it should be. Some are far more popular for various reasons, others are unpopular. MNK is currently very unpopular because the damage reduction from subtle blow isn't sufficient enough to justify the slow kill speeds. It gets into the same situation RNG and BLM are in, viable for groups to try out but not commonly put in practice. Super buffing a bunch of various DD's (WAR/DRK/SAM/DRG/BLU/THF/DNC/NIN/COR) and then having them overload AI and take a target down is just simpler, more effective and overall more useful for the majority of the community.

Got some time so I'll put this out.

A single high powered DD buffed will have a NM do a WS every 10~12 seconds. Adding an extra DD doesn't lower it to 5~6 but instead they hit the AI floor and reach the 9~12 range. There is a range because NM's don't just stand there waiting to hit 3/1K TP, they are doing actions and if they are in the middle of an action when they hit that TP mark they must wait until after their action and it's associated cooldown to execute a TP move. During that time the DD's are still hitting it, feeding it TP in excess of it's execution mark, extra TP gain isn't' back dated.

A single high powered MNK buffed will have that same NM do a WS every 35~45 seconds. There is a range because NM's have TP sources other then us hitting them as anyone who's kited them around knows. Between regain, Store TP and Occult Acumen (only way to explain some fights) they'll get TP even if you have zero DD's hitting them. Adding a second MNK will lower the time significantly because they are no were near the AI floor. And once the NM is under 25% HP and in it's most dangerous phase, they'll be getting close to the 10~12s range.

This is why the relative advantage of MNK subtle blow is a minor strategy, SE's rigged the game so that you won't be winning by much. This method doesn't scale up very well while ignoring TP feed entirely and smashing it with stronger DD's does.

Until they add a -VERY- strong unresistable plague and/or zero tp gain. Subtle Blow isn't a viable strat.

It's neat, but yeah. Regain, occult, ridiculous store tp that (some) mobs have is regoddamndiculous.

(it does make a difference, but its a moot difference)

Totally spaced on remembering that SAM gets Kendatsuba set (and Chirich+1 is a big chunk too). So yeah, you're completely correct that's not terribly difficult to get a lot of SB on SAM... and even if you don't have Dagon, that's still an easy SB+55, on a job that has much stronger overall DPS.


What it really comes down to is how much Subtle Blow is enough Subtle Blow to provide adequate additional safety. I'm not saying SB is totally useless - there is obviously a big difference between using SB-capped MNK NIN DDs versus comparing to 4 random melees (including some with minimal SB) going nuts on something.

But as a practical matter, what are you REALLY fighting that requires absolutely maxed SB (it sure isn't Omen content, where the truly dangerous moves are HP% based anyway)? I'm more inclined to believe that in almost all cases, even if you are in a situation where slowing dangerous mob TP moves is a consideration that actually could make some degree of difference in survival, you're still going to be just fine with other jobs that have good - but not MNK-good - levels of SB. A couple SAM with Subtle Blow +55~65, other SB+50~60 jobs like NIN, DNC, whatever... Simply better DPS potential, and still reduces mob TP enough to provide some significant reduction in pressure on your backline and give them greater margin for error on healing.

MNK's one saving grace is that Penance is pretty cool, and I guess in longer fights in particular with HIGHLY dangerous TP moves, that might be the best argument for employing multiple MNKs rotating Chi Blast. But jeez... what are people actually fighting where that's truly the difference between winning and losing?

A related tangent... I run into a lot of WHMs who regularly forget to Auspice non SB-capped melees, or might not be bothering to cast Auspice in Empy feet (which are a massive increase, from SB+10 to SB+25). Yes, this is more of a "yell at your WHM" problem, but it's worth bringing up since I'm sure it happens to other people too. And remembering to badger your WHM until they learn to Auspice might be a much easier way for some groups to help alleviate mob TP move spam than making everyone change to MNK...

You've missed the point entirely if you're asking these types of questions. Nothing requires Monk amounts of Subtle Blow. Nobody is stating this. The point is that Monk levels of Subtle Blow make the fight easier and more reliable. Let me restate your question in another way.

But as a practical matter, what are you REALLY fighting that requires absolutely maxed DPS?

Truthfully there is hardly any content that requires absolutely maxed DPS. I think the only content where you're hurting for it right now is wave 3 although that might be due more to the NA end game community currently being in such a fractured state (the content drought of the last 18 months has fueled this.)

Your last point actually makes the case for Monk stronger. White Mages aren't going to suddenly change their behavior because of this thread. If they're neglecting Auspice now than they'll be neglecting Auspice until the servers are shut down. You've basically stated your groups are regularly Subtle Blow deficient because of this. Monk does not require Auspice to cap and thus the Subtle Blow gap widens.

Honestly people are not going to change the way they feel about monk, I hate it but *** epps are stuck in this zomg if i dont get the best dps ***and it's like GTFO. We have these same conversations about how monk can be good if you do xyz but since it's not abc to whoever the job gets frowned upon. It's sickening that Thorny and Ramzus have brought EXTREMELY valid points over and over again and yet we always get *** who can't even think monk is worth bringing. It's tiresome and I hate the fact that this community has spiraled this far *** gone to not even see the benefits of monk.

1-There is a certain threshold where the total number of DPS jobs starts to diminish the effects of SB rendering it obsolete as a strategy regardless of the amount/delay.

2-Taking into consideration [Occult Acumen, Regain, Save TP] they also mitigate the the SB Strat if the intention was to slow down TP moves.[but not as bad as the first point]


That however can be easily remedied, it was mentioned earlier that [MNK DNC NIN] are preferred for low-man SB meta admittedly knowing that 2H jobs like SAM and DRG can also cap SB but fail to perform as effectively due to [weapon types] TP feed.

Usually when we go SB strat to various endgame content we do so in order to relax and play without any stress [even in full alliance].

Provided that its a bit slower than pure zerg yet thanks to spiked rudras from Dancers its not a big deal.

Events run so much smoother with SB in mind, and by a very good margin too, and for that reason alone its highly recommend for groups that don't like to overwhelm themselves or get stuck in a certain mindset dictated by Meta. And more often than not, NMs seem to do a TP move every 15-20s on AVG with these jobs in mind.


"You wont overwhelm your alliance" is the trade off using SB.

The point that Im trying to make here, SB strat is definitely attractive and the biggest testimonial to that comes from Japanese Players, who utilizes that over anything DD related.

Wouldn't that induce a massive amount of constipation and possibly erectile dysfunction?

A possible cure would be a hefty dose of Viagra and a copious amount of diarrhea induced herbal medicine.

Possible complications might arise. Consult your physician before consuming both medicine.

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On topic, I think there are too many ways for a party to setup around the need to reduce tp feeding. Either the use of SMN or Sch with MB or a combination of high SB rangers and MB could avoid the whole thing without risking melees taking AOE damages.

Monk is nice with subtle blows but once you put another DD into the function and the whole thing would be moot because the other guy would feed enough TP to reset whatever the Monk tries to do pretty irrelevant.

Wave 3 is less of dps check than woc, imo. More than 1 group have been clearing it with 20 min left less than 1 month after release, and brought 1h jobs like dnc and still clear with tons of time left.

You arent going to fail wave 3 with mnk dd.

The only reason why people may have dps issue is because content favors smaller group and mercs for way too damn long. So majority of ls dont have man power to create bigger alliance because people are all over the place in different smaller groups.

Umm ... 2H jobs with higher delay weapons feed less TP per delay then DW / H2H jobs with lower delay weapons. The penalty is built into the TP gain formula (Base TP +30). A DW job with 50 Subtle Blow will feed more TP then a 2H job with 50 Subtle Blow.


That's why I lumped MNK into the same category as RNG and BLM strats.

You seem to be forgetting/dismissing dAGI and WS TP feed ....

I'm not missing the point. The pro Subtle Blow crowd is essentially saying that use of lots of Subtle Blow makes some fights easier due to easing the burden on the backline. At least for argument's sake, I'm fully accepting that premise.

Where we differ is that you are basically saying "use MNK for that Subtle Blow because it has the most Subtle Blow". What I'm saying is that using other DDs who *also have access to a lot of SB* (let's say, SB+50 or higher) is highly likely to be just as reliable and make the fight just as easy. And those other jobs have better damage potential, so in addition to being sufficiently easy thanks to use of Subtle Blow, the fight takes less time.

So, how much Subtle Blow is "enough" to make the fight easy/reliable enough for your group's comfort level? That's a subjective call, but I'd imagine for the vast majority of groups and fights, the answer is that the ideal sweet spot would call for jobs that aren't MNK. I can't really fathom a situation where two Subtle Blow +65 SAM (or substitute a SB+55 DNC, SB+50 NIN, etc.) aren't a better choice than two Subtle Blow +75 MNK. Both setups have a large impact on TP feed and make the fight easier. The former also make it go faster. Why not use that?


I'm not stating my groups are Subtle Blow deficient, because I didn't say I just accept lack of Auspice. If we're in a fight where TP feed might have a significant impact, I'd rather just tell them "hey WHM, cast Auspice" than rework the whole damn party to include MNKs and lower our damage output. All I'm doing is mentioning that some WHMs might need a reminder - people might want to keep that in mind if they're claiming that non-MNK jobs are running around with only Subtle Blow +5, because that really shouldn't ever be the case if you have a WHM in the party.

Your logic that WHMs being lazy/forgetful about Auspice is a stronger rationale for using MNK is pretty silly. By the same thinking, if mages ever forget to haste, people should prioritize use of DPS jobs that can self-cap haste. That's obviously crazy; the answer isn't to have all of the DDs go switch to BLU, it's to tell the mages to do their job and haste people.

EDIT: to be fair, if you're ever in a fight where you're worried about TP feed AND there's a lot of dispel, keeping Auspice up might become an issue and lean toward jobs like MNK NIN SAM that can cap without it in otherwise strong TP gear. But that's a rather niche scenario.

using what gear, though? I can't think of anything off the top of my head

Volte + Dagon + Sherida

ItemSet 360371

With Auspice that's 70

I'm not a DRG, so I may be unaware of ideal TP gear/swaps. And it probably needs Auspice in a lot of realistic sets. But with that in place, there are some options to get the remaining 25 after Auspice (most of these are all jobs so work for any DD):

6-10 per piece: Volte Gear
10/11: Bathy Choker/+1
4: Clotharius Torque
5: Dignitary's Earring
7/10: Chirich Ring/+1
5: Sarissapho. Belt

And that leaves the body free for Dagon. If you aren't using that on WAR/PLD/DRK/SAM/DRG, Flamma +2 body (a huge SB+17) might be a viable choice when TP feed reduction is really a priority.

DRG is giving up a lot then to reach that point where SAM doesn't.

volte gear's pretty unrealistic though, isn't it?

the drop rate is absolutely abysmal

When has that ever stopped anyone before

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The fact you typed this out either means you are intentionally trying to deceive or are completely incompetent.

Eh, it's not that unrealistic to do a DRG SB+60 set even without hard to obtain gear like Volte/Dagon.

Auspice: 25
Flamma Korazin +2: 17
NQ Chirich: 8

There's SB+50 cap with only two pieces of gear, which might not be *ideal* DPS pieces but they aren't bad (I'm not really advocating for this as a fulltime set, but taking a slight hit to DPS from a body change when TP feed is really as important as people are claiming isn't a ridiculous swap). Then add Sherida/Niq. Ring, which any DRG would want to use anyway, for SBII+10.

Can switch to Fighter's/Samurai to bridge the gap and sub WAR if Dancer is around.

If you're assuming Auspice, then DRG can hit 50+10(20 if using Dagon) Subtle Blow pretty easily without a ton of sacrifice either.


ItemSet 360372

Also: I'd still rather have the SB+60~70 DRG than the SB+75 MNK.

If you're concerned about damage in addition to SB, then the answer is SAM.

I agree. But if we're talking about situations where people are claiming MNK has a legitimate case for being really useful, I still think it's below lots of other jobs when doing a low TP feed setup. SAM, DRG, DNC, probably any stronger DD even hitting "only" SB+50, etc...

The big advantage MNK has is penance, the capping SB in standard gear is just the bonus.

That's fair re: Penance, which is why I mentioned it before.

I'm still not convinced that the benefits gained from Penance outweigh the DPS loss of MNK over other stronger DDs who can also hit 50~70 Subtle Blow. To a point, reducing TP feed is helpful. But a setup with 2x SAM rocking SB+55-65 sets (or whatever other job combintations with similar SB) is probably plenty sufficient for most groups. Adding Penance on top of that strikes me as unlikely to have significant impact on the group's success.