IiPunch - Monk Guide

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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-01-23 18:15:44
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Boshi said: »
Haverton ring with Dw6 is prob bis for all dw jobs except nin & dnc

Not really. THF (w/ 550 gift) or BLU (with DW4 from gifts/set spells, trivial when you have 1200 gift) and proper haste buffs just need DW+6 anyway to cap. There are far better places to do that than a ring slot: Adhemar+1 body (with otherwise excellent DD stats), Carmine+1 legs for BLU, or even a DW+5 piece and accepting slightly undercapped delay will outweigh removing one of your rings for Haverton +1.

COR/DNC is the only meaningful DW melee with significant additional DW needs (need DW+21 to hit cap when getting capped magical haste) where Haverton tends to make sense. Otherwise, we're talking maybe meleeBRD or a dual-axe swinging BST getting some use out of it?

I say this as a Haverton+1 owner, and I DO get use out of it on my THF DNC NIN when severely underbuffed. Even on NIN, useful in my capped delay TP set when getting NO magical haste. But I wouldn't really advise spending the Adoulin reward for those kinds of situations - I just use it cause I have the ring for its real benefit of COR RNG ranged stuff.
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2018-02-09 07:00:53
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I foresee lots of people setting MNK in their comments and never actually making the head piece... Until fixes appear for MNK's accuracy cap, missing grip, MA Gifts, WS skillchain elements, WS ftp and effects in general, JA durations and effects and... Whatever the fck Boost is.
I'm glad MNK now has another WSD 10% piece, but foundational flaws can't be fixed by new decor.
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By Asura.Geriond 2018-02-09 07:09:21
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MA gifts don't nerf Monk anymore (unless using gear with additional MA), right?
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2018-02-09 07:17:57
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Asura.Geriond said: »
MA gifts don't nerf Monk anymore (unless using gear with additional MA), right?

It depends on the weapon you are using. Some still result in a TP penalty when wearing the Impetus body. Verethragna receives a penalty regardless.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2018-02-09 07:30:36
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I did the math awhile back, here it is:

Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Asura.Akamatzu said: »
Can someone explain to me how much martial arts is needed for it hurts TP gain and how they got that number?

I would calculate it myself, but I have no idea how to start that math. :(

Laid out pretty well on BGWiki "Attack Speed" page

Quote:
For Martial Arts, which is not a percentage-based decrease, you must use your base delay (480 for H2H) plus weapon delay in the calculations instead of calculating it independent of delay as shown above.

Minimum H2H delay is 96
The 80% Delay reduction cap still applies to your (Base Delay + Weapon Delay).
For example when calculating delay with H2H you take (480 (Base Delay) +xx (+Weapon Delay) -xx(MA Delay Reduction))×(1024 - xx Equipment Haste - xx Magic Haste - xx Job Ability Haste)÷1024 =xx

The minimum delay possible for a Spharai would be (480 Base Delay + 86 Weapon Delay)*.2 Delay cap = 113.2 minimum possible delay.

The delay for a Spharai Monk with capped gear and magic haste only, would be (480 Base Delay + 86 Weapon Delay - 200 Martial Arts Delay)×(1024 - 256 Equipment Haste - 448 Magic Haste)=114.3 which is nearly minimum delay.

The basics:
If you are at capped delay reduction, additional MA works like excess DW in that it provides no additional attack speed benefit, but the theoretical value (even beyond the 80% total delay reduction cap) is still used for the purpose of calculating TP/hit... As in, using more MA when you're already at delay cap just means you get less TP per swing. Now, it's still generally better to have max magical haste and deal with the slightly less TP/hit return than it is to not have enough haste and be considerably slower than max delay reduction. But that doesn't make it less annoying.

If you are at capped magical haste (448/1024):
As a general rule, if you're getting capped magical haste you will already be below delay reduction cap without any additional MA gear. So try not to use additional MA gear if you can help it.

More specifically:
* For any delay+60 or less H2H, you're already under cap even with zero gifts.
* For Delay+96 weapons, 100 gift (MA-5, on top of MNK's base -200 Martial Arts VII trait) puts you right at cap. 1200 gift (adding another MA-5 for -210 total) puts you under delay cap.
* Delay+130 weapon (just Ohrmazd, which you shouldn't really be using anyway) is actually still just slightly over delay cap even with both MA gifts. But you should use a different weapon.

If you aren't at capped magical haste:
However... MA isn't always bad! If you're only getting Haste II or less, you will NOT be reaching delay cap and more Martial Arts does provide a significant benefit. Good MA pieces like Hizamaru Somen+1 and Mache Earrings are actually quite good in this scenario.

The key point:
Quite simply, it's beneficial to have a haste capped TP set with no MA gear, and a non-haste capped TP set including the good MA pieces.

Of course, you can play with the formula too, to account for stuff JA haste from a DNC main or /DNC. It's basically the same decision though: use MA gear if you're not also getting capped magical haste, don't use MA gear if you are getting capped magical haste.

Capuchin really knows his stuff about Martial Arts, so I've quoted him here. I'll put in the new H2H values for Godhands in a moment...

So the minimum delay we can experience with Godhands is:
(480 + 138) * .2 = 123.6

When Haste-capped and Mastered, Godhands delay is:
(480 + 138 - 210) * (1024 - 256 - 448) / 1024 = 127.5

13 more Martial Arts would put you at 123.4375, or a hair too far.
12 is the most you'd want to wear.

Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
For sake of comparison:

Glanzfaust
So the minimum delay we can experience with Glanzfaust is:
(480 + 126) * .2 = 121.2

When Haste-capped and Mastered, Glanzfaust delay is:
(480 + 126 - 210) * (1024 - 256 - 448) / 1024 = 123.75


Spharai
So the minimum delay we can experience with Spharai is:
(480 + 116) * .2 = 119.2

When Haste-capped and Mastered, Spharai delay is:
(480 + 116 - 210) * (1024 - 256 - 448) / 1024 = 120.625


Verethragna
So the minimum delay we can experience with Verethragna is:
(480 + 81) * .2 = 112.2

When Haste-capped and Mastered, Verethragna delay is:
(480 + 81 - 210) * (1024 - 256 - 448) / 1024 = 109.6875

Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
You could add up to 8 Martial Arts gear and not exceed the delay cap when wearing Glanzfaust.

You could add up to 4 Martial Arts gear and not exceed the delay cap when wearing Spharai.

Please, anyone, feel free to confirm my method and results.


Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
What does this mean? Well looking forward...

It means, unless you use Godhands or Glanzfaust, wearing Bhikku Cyclas +1 during Impetus puts you in the same goddamn spot you were in prior to SE's misguided, stupid, brain-dead adjustment to all H2H weapons rather than to MNK's misguided, stupid, brain-dead gift table.

And if, whenever they get around to adding them, Bhikku Cyclas +2 and +3 have higher Martial Arts values, they could put all MNKs back where they were prior to the August Downdate.

There aren't enough curses in the world to express how I'm feeling towards SE's incompetence.
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By Asura.Geriond 2018-02-09 07:34:53
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"Same spot", except the problem is only there for some weapons + body combos, and it's not nearly as damaging as it was?
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2018-02-09 07:39:43
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The degree of a TP penalty that one is comfortable suffering will vary. However, MA Gifts definitely still nerf MNK. Oddly enough, since MNK and H2H weapon skills are so busted, the H2H that receives a TP penalty even on an otherwise naked MNK is still MNK's best DPS H2H weapon.
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2018-02-09 07:53:23
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Not sure it's possible for MNK to hit 80% Haste anyway.

448 magic + 256 gear = 704/1024 (68.75% Haste)

Even with a fully enhanced DNC (101 JA Haste), you'd be sitting at 78.6% Haste.



Most situations I was ever in on MNK had 68.75% Haste, in which case you don't need to worry about martial arts at all.
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By SimonSes 2018-02-09 10:17:19
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@Byrth I might be stupid, but none was doing math for capped overall haste (80%), but only for capped magic and equip haste.

At least in calculations above, I only see (1024 - 256 - 448), so only equip and magic haste. No JA haste at all.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2018-02-09 11:10:21
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Sorry, I was looking at the bgwiki quote.

(480+86)*0.2 = 113 delay floor

(480+86-210)"(.3125) = 111

So you are 2 delay below cap with Spharai, full gifts, and capped magic haste.

Your weapon delay for TP is (480+86-210)/2 = 178, which puts you at 60 TP/hit instead of 61. That 0.1 base TP/hit is the cost. You ha e to go down to 168 base delay (20 more martial arts) to lose any more TP.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2018-02-09 11:18:10
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Byrth, I'm pretty sure you are not using the new value for Spharai in your calculation. See above for the new values (assuming my calculations are correct).
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By Asura.Arico 2018-02-14 00:09:38
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Has anyone ever noticed that sometimes after using an ability or a weapon skill it takes absurdly long to start punching again? Like 4-8 seconds? I've never noticed this on any job other than MNK No idea what's going on.
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By Shiva.Berzerk 2018-02-14 00:27:11
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Asura.Arico said: »
Has anyone ever noticed that sometimes after using an ability or a weapon skill it takes absurdly long to start punching again? Like 4-8 seconds? I've never noticed this on any job other than MNK No idea what's going on.

Boost was updated a bit ago to add a considerable delay after using it. Apparently if you time your attack correctly after using boost (like a WS) then it'll 'boost' w/e that next attack is. I think the delay is based on the delay of your currently equipped weapon or something like that.

Anyways. Yeah, it's from a recent update where they tried to revive MNK and failed miserably.
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By Asura.Eko 2018-02-14 19:34:39
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Is this guide fairly up to date? or am i better off going through the most recent posts for possible gear/builds etc?
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By Asura.Zanosan 2018-02-14 21:08:16
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It's pretty up to date as not much gear has been released post-Omen. The biggest thing missing is Relic +3 gear, most notably replacing Herculean Helm in WSD sets.

Also:
Fenrir.Jinjo said: »
V. Equipment ►

Or what I like to call, "the part most people actually care about". These gear sets are not the end-all on what you should be using. The game calls for a plethora of different combinations that often changes what's best ever so slightly. The sets represented here denote what is mathematically effective a majority of the time. If you have set suggestions, feel free to post them and include specifically what they are to be used for. Also, remember that I am a human being. I forget things. If I have seemingly neglected something that would seem like common sense to include, just notify me.

Furthermore, gear is released pretty much every update. With every set, I will include when it was last modified so you can know whether or not it should be/is current.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-02-14 23:37:24
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Still feel like in the main page sets kicks are undervalued. A shitload of multi is great but at what point does a kick feet/legs (like azagarths set) start to be better.

Like tp gain wise, Bhiiku legs have to be better than samnuha.
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-02-15 01:17:29
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I'm unconvinced by that.
Personally I *do* use a kicks set because with the gear I have available it's my best option, but even with Anchorite+3 feet kick attacks are nothing like they used to be in the old era.

In the old era Kick Attack was that one rare additional attack that could proc once per round and would do a lot of damage. Back then the damage of a kick was comparable (if not slightly higher?) to the damage of the Relic Weapon, that was much higher than the damage from a typical weapon you would equip (fists damage).


Because of how things evolved through the years, now fists are MUCH more powerful than kick attacks. Anchorite+3 (and Ambu cape, and Job Points) serves to slightly close the gap but it's still not there.
So we're left with ONE additional attack per round that does at best slightly less damage than your fists and that can't proc during WSs.


Am I missing something? I don't think there's any other property worth of note.
Different STR tiers? Different properties? Att modifiers?
Yes you have an accuracy bonus but again that sounds pretty useless.
What use is to have ~40 more accuracy on an attack that can proc once per round? Your goal should be that to have ALL your attacks be more or less at the same accuracy level.
Likewise the Attack bonus. If you're att capped what are you gonna do with that additional att on the kick proc?
I guess it does serve an use when you're at low buffs but still, I think a solid MultiAttack build should be more coherent and efficient than a KA one, in theory.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-02-15 01:20:54
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I'm not saying a kick is better than a multi attack on a punch.

But that with as much Multi on fists as that set has, kick rate has to be better than more devalued Multi (at some point)
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-02-15 01:40:39
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How so?
I'm not denying your point of view, trying to understand it better, maybe you're right.

The way I see it, unless you reach the MA cap, why should KA be better?
Let's say your fists deal on average ~600 damage per hit, let's say your kicks deal, I dunno, ~550.
Let's say you're sitting at 30% MA and 10% KA.

Now in a single slot you get an option for either equipping 5% more MA or 5% more KA.
But MA deal (slightly) more damage, so why shoud you prefer KA?
There's also other pros and cons.
For instance MA can proc on each fist independently, KA only once per round.
Furthermore, MA doesn't require anything in your build, KA requires at least to lock the feet slot with Anchorite+3 to say the least.


If we look at things this way (am I missing something?) I don't see how the same % of KA can be better than the same % MA at "some point". I'd say never? Unless you're at 100% MA of course but that's not realistic.

Now if we're comparing different % though, like 5% MA vs 10% KA... eeeh! Now I can see that being a tough choice, and with different numbers I agree there's gotta be a threshold where KA might be better.
But still the only realistic slot swaps are legs and feet.
We're talking about 6% combined DA/TA vs 20% Kick. Well technically 12 combined vs 20, since you're locking out the feet as well (6% TA from Herculean)

The difference in numbers is probably what brings Bhikku so close to Samnuha. Things will get better once Bhikku+3 will be released I bet, but that won't happen before the end of the year.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-02-15 01:50:17
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From a strictly "what set attacks more times per round and/or builds tp faster"

You don't necessarily have to change your feet to Af+3
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-02-15 01:57:41
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
From a strictly "what set attacks more times per round and/or builds tp faster"

You don't necessarily have to change your feet to Af+3
Ok, if we want to compare the legs slot exclusively that's 6% MA vs 20% KA.
Seems to be favouring KA, right? Much bigger number.
BUT that MA can proc twice per attack round, not once, and 3% of it is triple attack, not just DA.
Not sure how you would express that mathematically but in terms of chances it should be a pure 20% chance of one additional attack vs a 3% x 2 chance one of additional attack + 3% x 2 chance of TWO additional attacks.
Again not sure how to simplify things because I suck at math, but I think 3% TA should be similar to 6% DA, approximatively? So 3% x2 + 3% x2 x 2 = ~18% DA vs 20% KA.
I think this is a very very rough approximation because it's not exactely how it works (and DA and TA are mutually exclusive chances) but it gives a rough idea.
Regardless, I think the difference in the legs slot is gonna be very small, which is in line with the results other people have posted in here and the results I got on the spreadsheet when I tested it myself.
Still Bhikku+1 is easy to obtain, Perf Samnuha are not. Which is exactely the reason why I'm using Bhikku atm.


Pretty sure Bhikku+3 will be a clear winner but, again, we'll have to wait a long time before that.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-02-15 02:01:05
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But, we're only wearing 2 pieces of kick+ vs ~10 pieces of da/ta+

the +20 is worth ~+20 but the +3/+3 is only /actually/ worth what, +2/+2 after being that devalued.

All I'm asking is; at some point adding multi via kick /should/ be more beneficial than adding multi via fist. are we not at that point, and if not, where is that point.
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-02-15 02:05:07
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Edited my previous post.
What do you mean by MA devaluation? I've read that once in the WAR forum some time ago, I don't remember the details but I thought that happened only above the 50% threshold? Not sure MNK can reach that. Ungh, maybe


Edit:
Did you mean how DA chances actually reduce the chance of a TA to happen so having excess DA actually ends up slightly hurting TA since DA is given higher property in the formulas calculation?
I've seen so many people claiming different things about that. Are we really sure DA chance gets processed before TA and QA by the game?
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By Quizzy 2018-02-15 02:11:50
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For the MA devaluation I presume he means this:

1.05/1.00 = 1.050

1.50/1.45 = 1.034

2.00/1.95 = 1.026
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By pchan 2018-02-15 02:39:26
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Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
I foresee lots of people setting MNK in their comments and never actually making the head piece... Until fixes appear for MNK's accuracy cap, missing grip, MA Gifts, WS skillchain elements, WS ftp and effects in general, JA durations and effects and... Whatever the fck Boost is.
I'm glad MNK now has another WSD 10% piece, but foundational flaws can't be fixed by new decor.
You have everything wrong (as usual) I think except boost.

  • MA doesn't nerf monk anymore however it's not a real bonus either.

  • Never had any issue with accuracy

  • lol grip

  • the problem with WS is not element

  • ja are fine

  • WS 10% piece is mostly garbage

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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2018-02-15 07:11:12
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pchan said: »
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
I foresee lots of people setting MNK in their comments and never actually making the head piece... Until fixes appear for MNK's accuracy cap, missing grip, MA Gifts, WS skillchain elements, WS ftp and effects in general, JA durations and effects and... Whatever the fck Boost is.
I'm glad MNK now has another WSD 10% piece, but foundational flaws can't be fixed by new decor.
You have everything wrong (as usual) I think except boost.

  • MA doesn't nerf monk anymore however it's not a real bonus either.

The breakdown is 20 posts above yours, right here on this page, three below the post you quoted. If the calculations are correct, Martial Arts gifts penalize Verethragna even if the MNK is not wearing any gear with Martial Arts on it. If you swap bodies during Impetus, these gifts are also a penalty to Spharai.
pchan said: »
  • Never had any issue with accuracy

MNK's accuracy needs can be overcome, but require far more support/gear sacrifices than do other DPS jobs if you are trying to use it for anything of difficulty.
pchan said: »
  • lol grip

Dual wielders have the benefits of an off hand weapon. Two handers have the benefit of an Utu Grip. MNKs get the benefit of loldenial.
pchan said: »
  • the problem with WS is not element

Tell me more about how you make Darkness on MNK.
pchan said: »
  • ja are fine

Of MNK's 9 job abilities that aren't SPs or merited, more than half have problems. They are either useless (Boost, Dodge), have penalties associated with them that really steal their thunder (Counterstance, Impetus) or have such short durations they fail to warrant the DPS lost from forced delay (Dodge again, Focus).
Anytime a job ability is used, a player loses between 1-2 seconds (let's not even talk about Boost). If a MNK uses Focus, 2 seconds of the 30 second duration is immediately lost. If a MNK pairs Focus with another job ability and times their activation perfectly, 3 seconds of Focus (10% of the duration) and 2 seconds of the second job ability are lost, or vice versa.
Any weapon skill used during Focus costs 2 seconds of the duration.
Abilities of similar functions of other jobs have gear to extend durations (Warcry, Aggressor, Berserk, Last Resort, even Meditate) and most have longer base durations to boot. The best are full-timed stances.
pchan said: »
  • WS 10% piece is mostly garbage

H2H weapon skills are mostly garbage, but since ftp doesn't carry on any of them, WSD 10%... Is the hero MNK deserves, but not the one it needs right now.
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By Asura.Geriond 2018-02-15 08:04:21
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I REALLY doubt that Focus is anywhere near a DPS loss, espscially if using Victory Smite.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-02-15 08:22:34
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are we still failing to understand that damage per second was never intended to be MNKs strong suit and having lower damage per second only makes MNK useless to people who already destroy the content in question

i dream of a day where cherry stops the self pity and realizes he's too good for MNK
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-02-15 08:41:25
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
are we still failing to understand that damage per second was never intended to be MNKs strong suit and having lower damage per second only makes MNK useless to people who already destroy the content in question

MNK doesn't need to be top DPS, but it does need to provide sufficient damage to justify taking it over another utility-DD job like BLU/THF/NIN/DNC. Subtle Blow alone isn't enough of a reason, especially since NIN already does that plus has far better damage and survivbility. The sad part is that it wouldn't take much to "fix MNK", just an adjustment to the WS properties of a few H2H WS's. Make Victory transfer fTP similar to CDC, so 1.6328125 per hit. Then adjust TK / DK / HF to be 60/60 and have slightly better fTP at 1K. MNK would then be competitive damage wise with NIN / THF / BLU / DNC while bringing it's own set of benefits to the table.

There should be some JA adjustments but that's a much tougher nut to crack then simple WS modification.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-02-15 09:14:48
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Asura.Saevel said: »
MNK doesn't need to be top DPS, but it does need to provide sufficient damage to justify taking it over another utility-DD job like BLU/THF/NIN/DNC.
This is completely opinion. It provides enough damage to clear any content without risk of time limitations, so how much damage it needs depends on how much of a rush your group is in and their ability to clear with other setups.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Subtle Blow alone isn't enough of a reason, especially since NIN already does that
'Already does that' is a gross oversimplification. NIN has 50% subtle blow. MNK has 75% and an additional 35% term fulltime if using at least two MNKs. If you keep it simple and ignore delay ratios and TP speed, that means NIN gives 3.08x more TP than MNK.

Going deeper:

113 delay cap with spharai, ~3.1 attacks/round, 1.65 swings/sec

94 tp fed per hit * .5(dAGI) * .25(subtle blow) * .65(penance) = 8 tp fed per hit

1.65 * 8 * .95 = ~12.54 tp/sec per MNK

if mob has a typical 240 delay and isn't slowed/elegied, isn't countered, gains roughly equal tp from occult acumen, they gain roughly 19 TP/sec

1000 / 31.54 = 31.7 secs per tp move with 1 MNK meleeing and penance up
1000 / 48.52 = 20.61 secs per tp move with 1 MNK meleeing and penance down

31.7 * 100/180 + 20.61 * 80/180 = 17.61 + 9.16 = 26.77 secs per TP move average with penance downtime for 1 MNK
1000 / 44.08 = 22.68 secs per tp move with 2 MNK
1000 / 56.62 = 17.66 secs per tp move with 3 MNK

Taka gives 81 tp per hit, Heishi gives 85

85 * .5 (dAGI) * .5(subtle blown) = 21.25 tp/hit
81 * .5 (dAGI) * .5(subtle blow) = 20.25 tp/hit
call it 20.75 tp/hit

83.4 delay/attack round, 2.9 atcacks/round
2.9 atts/round * 20.75 tp / 1.39 sec/round = 43.29 tp per sec

For the sake of giving NIN a chance, let's assume every single source of the mob's TP gain from it's own actions is blocked by shadows. In reality, counter can be almost as effective as shadows and many monsters can't be blinked.

1000 / 43.29 = 23.1 secs per TP with 1 NIN
1000 / 86.58 = 11.55 secs per tp with 2 NIN
1000 / 129.87 = 7.7 secs per tp with 3 NIN

NIN subtle blow is not even remotely comparable to MNK subtle blow unless you're looking at a single DPS and a monster that can be entirely blinked. Even then, without factoring counter as a source of TP reduction, MNK gives less TP.

Quote:
plus has far better damage and survivbility.
Damage, sure. Survivability in FFXI largely comes down to one shot risk. Shadows can be excellent for mitigating certain moves, but are completely irrelevant for others. The extra HP coming from MNK's traits and Mantra is undeniably more survivability in most circumstances.
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