IiPunch - Monk Guide

You're also twisting my words by telling me that I think MNK is an amazing zerg job. Note how I specifically separated good and decent because I understand MNKs limitations. I also don't think it's as bad as you claim it to be. Sure, it's not going to outperform RUN or WAR in a zerg but I also don't think it's going to fall behind most middle of the pack DDs under maximum buffed conditions.

I think the Rhongo/Trishula argument is not comparable to the MNK vs other DDs argument because I'm not trying to sell MNK as an amazing DD that shits on everything else, I'm just trying to show evidence that it isn't as bad as some people say. Some people here do recognize that, but you can very very VERY very clearly see even just in the last 5 pages of the thread that if you even suggest using MNK that you're *** HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE according to some people.

In closing,

MNK WS suck *** at 1000, I think everyone can agree on that. At 3000 TP with boatloads of buffs? Maybe not so much the case. I am very highly inclined to believe that it can perform on the same level as non-Resolution jobs.

Also the people who think that BLU is still OP don't have brain cells. It's got some stuff that makes it great in low buff situations but as soon as you're actually doing something moderately hard with real buffs the usefulness tapers off real fast.

edit:

I wish I had real data on the MNK zerg claim, though. Lots of real life stuff popped up for my group which caused us to push back our Albumen/Schah MNK zerg stuff by a little while. I don't trust any form of spreadsheet for accurate reporting given that the things are not modeled correctly. I'd rather go off of real numbers in game. If the real data doesn't match with how well I think MNK is going to perform then yes, I will gladly agree with you that it sucks. But until someone has actually tried it out, nope, I have no issues claiming that it's not as bad as people think it is.

I never said amazing, it's not even a decent zerg job due to WS's being to poor. Every other DD job is better at high DPS then MNK.


It's the lowest DPS of the DPS jobs. WAR/DRK/SAM/DRG/NIN/THF/DNC/BLU/COR/RNG are all better at that role and several of those provide more utility.


Your comparing a mythical MNK spaming 3K TP WS's to people spaming 1K TP WS's. Now give those other jobs the same buffs and they'll do better because H2H WS's suck at pumping up damage.

Rudra's Storm, Savage Blade, Mistral Axe, Blade: Ten, and Judgement, yes a Club WS, are all better 3K WS's then whats available to H2H. For 2H WS's it's StarDiver, Resolution at the top followed by Upheaval and Cross Reaper with Fudo being at the end (SAM makes up for it with Overwhelm and raw quantity), those are all stronger then what H2H has to offer. WSC and base DMG matter a lot.

MNK itself is fine, H2H sucks *** right now. The only weapon class's worse then H2H are Club and Staff, which MNK also gets.

All melee DD right now fail to the all powerful zerg smn.

Now if you don't care about the best setup (smn), mnk easily will perform at the level to beat content you would bring any other melee dd to. I use mine just fine and parse "avg" against non-avg players (top geared). Do I win? Nah, but I dont need to and its more fun for us when we try to push lesser jobs to new heights.

And like Ramzus said, its more or less at the same level as most non-Reso jobs. You should have no difficulty keeping up with your dnc/thf/nin/blu/cor/etc jobs. Mnk's issue is its ws dmg, and even then its not HALF of the dps of other jobs like people make it, I may avg 15k in a run with VS, while my blu/nin/thf/dnc etc would get maybe 5k~ more on avg.

Btw had some fun in SR on mnk the other night, with another mnk. The tp spam from the mob was noticeably lower to me even with the run going to down with reso. We also both had the same WS avg as the RUN who has perfect gear/master/lionheart... so its not like mnk is that bad. The Run won by a few %, but not by a landslide and it was more due to the fact that he could resist amnesia/stun etc and we couldnt, thus getting a significant amount of ws off that we simply couldn't. Oh and mantra was a big help, enough to stop those lame 1 shots that many of the mobs do. Nice thing to have for sure.

There is nothing mythical about 3k WS spam at all, I'm disappointed in you considering you're a WAR. WAR is a staple job for zergs considering how insanely strong Warcry is. It's not hard to pop Warcry and super revit it right before you spawn the monster and then Warcry again right as it's about to wear for 2 whole minutes of TP Bonus +750. Crystal Blessing also lasts forever and is another 250, it's not hard to have someone with > 3 min duration crystal blessing to use it and switch to their main job after, especially if it's a support like WHM BRD or GEO. Pair that with godhands and moonshade and you've already got 2750 TP WS if you go right at 1000. Overflow is pretty inevitable with the amounts of TA MNK gets so it's not exactly hard to reach 1250 before you WS.


WAR/DRK - duh, resolution. I even addressed that.

SAM - Debatable, as STP buffs get higher, their edge decreases given that pretty much every 2 hander can approach a 3 hit with a buffed 11 SAM roll. This is coming from someone who has been obsessed with SAM since 2003. Had a pretty bad wakeup call semi recently parsing against RUN lul

DRG - 7.8 ftp and 85% mod vs 13.0 ftp and 30%/30% mod. I don't know about that. Angon is useless for zergs since you'll have bolster fraility.

NIN - 15.5 ftp and 30%/30% vs 13.0 ftp and 30%/30% with access to less good ws gear (no knobkierrie) and way lower damage weapons.

THF - I would imagine it's actually quite strong but I haven't really used it outside of Teles/Erinys.

DNC - See THF, I also think this job is criminally under rated but probably because people mostly don't know how to use it.

BLU - 14.75 ftp and 50%/50% mod, but lower damage weapons and less good WS gear (again, no Knobkierrie.)

COR - Yeah, I don't know what kind of CORs you're playing with that can keep with other DDs but please send them my way. Although this may be subject to change with the recent addition of Raetic Blade +1...

RNG - ??? ??? lol?

I'm talking about you comparing 3K TP WS's to 1K TP WS's on other jobs, such that they would have 1K TP and you would be using 3K TP.


WSC and base DMG matter, a lot. Stardiver is the polearm version of Resolution and the reason Trish is so powerful.



SAM is right next to WAR for offensive strength. Great Katana has weaker WS's but SAM's native Store TP combined with Zanasso enables them to rock heavy Multi-Attack and still hit the appropriate 4-hit base (turns into 3-hit with buffs). The important part isn't the "x-hit" but the average Time-to-WS and SAM's is brutally short, sheer quantity of WS is their moto.

NIN, THF and DNC all crush MNK, it's not even a contest. All of those WS's have their damage on the first hit meaning WSD effects the entire (or near enough) WS instead of just the first 9.0 fTP . WSD only effects the first hit of a WS.

BLU is so much stronger it's not even funny, their the top 1H DD right now for very good reasons (in pure DD mode).

COR has a very special Savage Blade due to them getting a TP Bonus +1000 ranged weapon that doesn't interfere with their TP gain. They also have Leaden Salute for that special situation.

RNG has TF and LS, LS is a 8.0 fTP attack with 85% AGI mod and a base DMG of 467. They aren't as high as the rest but in the same situations your using for H2H they also work just as well. I've actually done a melee build RNG that spamed LS, was hilarious, could do self multistep SC's.


Ramzus you really need to look over the WS damage formula and get a better understanding of how each component effects the rest. All those other WS's have something that H2H WS's don't, some mechanic that enables them to be exploited. The three things we're looking for are high WSD, fTP transfer, or single hit high fTP scaling. All three being present (Resolution, Stardiver) makes the WS really exploitable, having two of them present makes it workable, and having only one makes it difficult. The WS your referring to, Raging Fists, has high fTP scaling but is only 9.0 at 3K with only two 30% mods. This makes it extremely difficult to exploit as stacking STR / DEX will have mediocre effect, stacking MA has almost no effect, and stacking WSD only effects the first hit and can leave you short of accuracy for the extra hits (first hit of a WS gets +100 WS Acc). Blade: Ten, is the same 30/30 stats but has a 15.5 fTP on the first hit (with off hand / MA hits meaning little). Not having a 6% WSD ammo means jack ***when your WS has a 72% higher WSD effect to being with. Savage Blade has a 50/50 WSD, higher fTP (13.75 + 2.0) and all 13.75 is on the first hit. Mistral Axe is (13.62 +1.0) only 50% STR but same situation. hell f*cking Judgement is 50/50 and (12+1) so WSD is 33% more effect then on RF.

I've actually tried to exploit all these different WS's and have builds around them just to see what I could do and how high I can push them, it's not theoretical for me. And you guys don't even have the job mastered.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what you have to say, but you're really married to the word 'exploit' and after months of cringing at it I feel like I have to point it out. You can 'exploit' any WS, some just have higher damage ceilings than others.

But, yet again, we are back to MNK vs the world. This is the MNK guide thread. If someone could make a seperate thread to argue about MNK being useless, it'd be great. Then you can all circle jerk in there and the people who enjoy MNK and want to play it anyway can avoid it.

Well I had to come up with a way to describe a WS that's mechanics were such that it was possible to pump their damage to really high levels. Basically why are certain WS's just so much better then others.

So, I think this is fair. It isn't like the SMN-haters are thrashing the SMN thread.
But if you don't want a reply from someone, don't quote them. Live the dream.

This is the last comment I'll make on this topic until I have actually data because I think both you and I are pretty tired of this conversation given that this is like the 2nd-3rd time we've had this EXACT conversation within the last 30 days haha.


I never claimed this anywhere, so either I worded it poorly in which I apologize if I did, or you just read it wrong. 1k vs 3k is a non argument that should never be taken into consideration. That's why I was comparing ftp between WS all at 3000 TP and not at 1000 vs 3000.


I don't disagree there, the mods are pretty decently ahead of Raging Fists's, and I won't comment on whether fstr comes into play considering we don't have monster stats. Godhands are a little further behind than Trishula in base damage too, 345 vs 278 (after taking into consideration base damage from skill and base damage from +269.) But again, the difference in ftp and being able to use WSD on Raging Fists helps close the gap.


I absolutely disagree with this. If you don't have SAM roll then it's more true, but CC 11 SAM roll adds 94 stp which makes it piss easy for WAR to hit a 3 hit as well. Pair this with a Raetic Algol and SAM is totally ***. Their WS dmg is incomparable to Resolution.


I'm not sure NIN belongs in the same pairing as THF and DNC. By your own logic, Rudra's mods should make it ***all over Blade: Ten. I've also done long-term parses with an equally geared NIN with very little variance/difference in engage/ws time and found MNK and NIN to be really close damage wise. Their low weapon damage compared to MNK hurts.


Citation/sources needed. They have nothing offensively (under capped conditions) that would suggest they'd outparse a COR, NIN, THF or DNC using your own logic.


I don't disagree that I need to familiarize myself with the formulas better, I haven't really paid attention to FFXI math until more recently. I also don't disagree that other WS have better mods/ftp either, but it's not that black and white when you take into account weapon damage. Sure, Judgment has higher ftp but it's also a weapon with 110 less base damage which does make a huge difference. It's also disingenuous of you to list the additional ftp on Mistal Axe and Savage Blade but fail to make note of the additional 4.0 on Raging Fists. I think MNK also gets an "offhand hit" but I can't remember off the top of my head so someone else will have to comment on that.

Anyway, you're welcome to think you're right, I don't care. I don't think either of us are right until we see non-theoretical numbers. I will happily rest the issue if MNK ends up under performing during zergs though as to avoid misinformation.

p.s. I've had 2100 MNK for over a year now so get bent bud

H2H WS do receive an offhand-hit, but the descriptions now all take that into account.

It's surprisingly hypocritical of you, though, to mention leaving off offhand hits while failing to include them in all your numbers. I was going to comment on that before, but I decided it didn't really matter considering how rough they were (failing to account for ratio cap differences, etc) and I didn't really disagree with the overall point.

I consistently left offhand hits off on all WS because I couldn't remember if the MNK description already accounted for the offhand hit. The only change I would have to do is RF from 13 to 12 to make it consistent, or add +1 to Ten/Savage/Rudra. Again, not intentional since I thought I wasn't adding the RF offhit so I'll apologize there.

raging is still 13 total. all multi hit ones include the offhand fist as part of the description, single hits like howling are technically two hits, though.

Did u read the guide? It's bolded page 1 xD

lmao i'm HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE

Those are all in the description now as well.

some just say "damage varies with tp" last I saw, like howling.

Your forgetting the WS counts as the first hit. To get an actual "3-hit" aka WS + 2-hit, you'd need in the hundreds of Store TP.

333/122 = 2.729 or 173 Store TP, and that's not accurate because the WS won't return 333 TP because you WS in less TP then you TP in. And as I said it's not the x-hit but the average time-to-WS, meaning average attacks per round matter.


Rudra's Storm > Blade: Ten >>>>>>>>> Raging Fists. Both absolutely crush RF.


You don't play BLU much do you...

Full DD mode means all their offensive job traits using either CDC or Savage depending on TP. Savage is a much stronger WS then RF, weaker then Rudras but with different mods. Go take a long took at their JT selection. No casting, just pre-battle buffs, and then spamming sword WS's.



End of f*cking discussion. Basically you are eyeballing everything and "feeling" your way through whats better then what. As I said in the beginning, there are mechanical reasons why H2H WS's suck. If we could graft swords onto a MNK's hands then there wouldn't be a problem.

I think that was fixed very recently, because I know Howling wasn't changed when I started playing MNK again a few months ago, but it is now.

Saevel, just because I am not fully familiar with the formulas does not mean you are some ffxi math wiz either. I've seen your math get dismantled many many times on these forums and then when it does you either NO U them or just disappear in thin air as if nothing ever happened in the first place.

Rudra crushes RF, no ***, I didn't say that. That wasn't even my argument. All I said was that NIN doesn't deserve to be in the same pairing as THF and DNC.

okay actually now

You're claiming WSC and base DMG matter in one case but the completely ignoring it in the next. Raging Fists has the same mods as Blade: Ten. Heishi base DMG is 159 while Godhands is 248. Maximum (non-DA) fTP for Ten is 15 + 1 while Raging is 9 + 4. You can see how serve to balance each other out. If you actually played either of these jobs instead of just spout out abstract speculation you might be more familiar with this.

Our Neak parses (very controlled circumstances and mostly scripted DPS play) showed NIN and MNK neck and neck. BLU was ahead about only slightly (10~%?). That said I think MNK and NIN (and really all 1 handers) could use a buff. All of the 1 handers fell behind 2 handers.

Either way, people need to get off the MNK low horse. It's stupid, tired and for the most part wrong. If you're going to hate on MNK you really should hate on most 1 handers. Thus far they appear to all be in the same ballpark (although I admit I have not parsed all of them on Neak yet.)

Umm because he was using access to knobkerri aa a reason RF was better without realizing that 15 ftp is a hella lot higher then 9. You deliberately twisted that and straw mannef it.

We have moved to another thread if you want to continue defending the worst DPS job in the game.

This isn't the drk thread

Mnk is the best DD and people should use them in all content.

Also drk blows

MNK is awesome for Tetra Master. Oh, wait, no, Subtle Blow only works on dice. Not cards. MNK is awesome for craps.

Vote for Counter TP returns and no defense penalty on counterstance

Also, vote for better lv3 skillchain property WS if our best WS is still RF.

If counter starts giving tp like retaliation Mnk suddenly becomes pretty damn epic. (on things that you can actually counter.) The trend is making enemies that can't be countered.

You can counter most relevant things. Literally everything in Dynamis-D, everything in Omen, 6/7 Reisenjima HELMs, WoC, Koryu, etc.