You Spoony Guide! - A Troubadour's Libretto

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You Spoony Guide! - A Troubadour's Libretto
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By Creecreelo 2013-01-17 02:10:22
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I'm really happy to finally see a Brd guide similar to what other jobs have been receiving!!

There are a few things I think should be noted though.

For Precast, Marduk's Jubbah +1 was actually found to be 11% Fast Cast, combined with Marduk +1 hands gives an extra 3% FC. With those two pieces, Sheikh finally becomes beaten. Orunmilla's Torque (FC+5%) would also beat Matinee.

For Debuffs, I would say that Nares beats out augmented Valks. Valks I suppose could beat out Nares, but you'd have to get some pretty darn lucky augments on them (probably involving Chr+ in random pool, yuck). balladeer's cape also should beat out Mesmeric in terms of accuracy. Mesmeric would still win for String Horde Lullabies though. If you don't need the skill from Balladeer's for other sets, I'd suggest just using Mesmeric for all debuffs then since they are close. I'm not really sure if Marduk's Tiara +1 is better than Hyaline Hat (2 Chr 10 M.Acc vs 12 Singing Skill), but they're so close I would say to just use Hyaline due to the FC+10% and lolEnmity-6.

For PDT, Genbu's Kabuto could be added as it can be augmented with PDT-3%. Kirin's Osode I feel should also be considered as it can be augmented up to PDT-5% and Regen+2. If you really want to go all out, brigantia pebble or iron gobbet could be considered as well.

For MDT, Magavan Frock (INT/MND+10 MDB+5) and Dalmy+1 (MDB+6) should be considered. Augmented Suzaku's Sune-ate can also receive MDB/MEva augments, along with its nice Fire Resist+50 and Mnd+15. Hexerei Cape and Mollusca Mantle would also be superior, while Engulfer Cape could also be utilized when MDT is capped.

For a MAX Healing set, I personally haven't really played too much around with this kinda set since so much of it is just Inventory+ but I think something like this would at least be better than the one posted. There's probably something better though if we're talking about a MAX Cure set for Brd.



For the skill sets, I know you wanted to post all that's available for them, but if we're talking about Max Wind/Singing and String/Singing sets (which we should be since just Max Wind or Max String is rather pointless as Singing skill is equal to Wind/String in potency), then I'd suggest consolidating the sets together. By this I mean just posting Max Wind and String sets that include Singing skill gear as well. So pieces like AF1+1 body, Marduk Hands +1, etc wouldn't be used since there are higher skill options like AF3+2 Body and Hands.


Finally, I think Shattersoul and Staff TP sets should also be considered for DD Brd, primarily when the Brd is /whm or a SJ more suitable to Staff. Shattersoul kickass and Plenitas Virga is an AMAZING weapon for Brd. I know for VW you'll probably end up as /whm and in that case, Staff should be better for dealing dmg than just single-wielding a dagger (although I must admit I haven't tried it with a 99 Mandau or Twatter! lol)

Something like this could potentially work; I'm sure there's better but wanted to just throw it out there.



And for Shattersoul perhaps? Body I feel is debatable, am not really sure. There's jack for Brd INT hands, so I'm not entirely sure if Mahatma is best either.



I think that's all for now!! @__________@

Oh! I would also like to echo Reain's thoughts on Marduk's Shalwar +1. I could see them being quite useful in events like Legion and to enhance SV Nitro songs; however, if duration is not a problem... I don't really feel it's worth it since you'd only be hurting your songs by removing Str/Dex+4 (primarily concerned with DD songs). Personally, I'm just not sold on them yet for buffs. 12-24 extra seconds vs. Stat increase+4-8, depending if Daurdabla or not.

OH! And that reminds me that AF3+2 4/5 is +3 to stats, not +4.

Think that's all, sorry. x_x
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 Bahamut.Cantontai
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By Bahamut.Cantontai 2013-01-17 02:46:21
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Sylph.Peldin said: »
I don't even know why people bother to put hexed -1 gear in their guides. It doesn't help the majority of the people who read them.

Right now, I am trying to math/sort out all the "ideal" sets, and once I feel comfortable with that I will start adding tiered sets. I'm not at the character limit for any of the first 4 posts, and haven't touched the 5th one, but I fully expect to max it out with information eventually.

Having said that, I am really appreciating everyone's input on gear and everything else, but I consider getting all the "how to play the job" stuff completed to satisfaction to be of more importance than the gear sets. As I said in the OP, grouping the collective knowledge of the bard community (and the consensus on ideal play/gear) is what I want to facilitate here. For some people, that means Hexed -1 gear, and although I want everyone to have a voice here I expect that the people who have access to Hexed -1 are going to have more to benefit from ideal sets than a new bard is going to have from me saying "make af3+2, collect the +3 instruments, try not to eat AoE". I will address this is future updates to the OP, along with a LOT of the constructive criticism that's come up so far in the thread.

I hope people can be patient though, I never fully realized it until I wrote this guide, but the people who wrote the other guides here on AH deserve massive *** kissings. It's a lot of work.
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By Creecreelo 2013-01-17 03:20:07
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I think one of the main things a Brd really needs to know how to handle is Nightingale and Troubadour, especially those with Daurdabla.

Basically, Daurdabla Brds should understand how to overwrite their Daurdabla songs for Gjallarhorn songs. This becomes incredible important when under Soul Voice since the potency of using Gjallarhorn is doubled.

To make things more clear, for most general situations what I do is Night/Troub and then Ghorn Minuet4 -> Marcato (if not under SV) Ghorn Minuet V -> Daurdabla Placebo Song 1 (usually a Paeon) -> Daurdabla Placebo Song 2 -> Ghorn Advancing March -> Ghorn Victory March.

The Ghorn Marches overwrite the Daurdabla's Paeons, resulting in full-powered Minuet4/5 and Marchx2 for the DDs. It is suggested for the mages to stand with the DDs when receiving these buffs as well because then you can just Ballad 3/2 them and possibly yourself, resulting in Balladx2/Marchx2 for the mages.

With Rng/Cor, it can be a little bit more tricky but if they run away after receiving the Daurdabla Placebo songs, you can then give them extra Minuet/Prelude/Etude w/e to replace their Placebo songs.

Not wearing Song Duration+ gear while singing the Daurdabla Placebo songs makes the process of overwriting them easier as well and is generally required if you want to overwrite them without the use of Night/troub. Without Night/Troub, Daurdabla Placebo songs also benefit from Quick Cast gear, which can be nice.

This doesn't account for Embrava or other Brd songs and also assumes lvl 99 Gjallarhorn and Daurdabla, but I think you get the drift! >.<
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-01-17 03:35:30
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Woo guide~
I suggest to add an explanation on how to use Daurdabla, I've noticed many bards have difficulty with it especially the first times.

Sylph.Peldin said: »
However, I don't even know why people bother to put hexed -1 gear in their guides. It doesn't help the majority of the people who read them.
Guides should provide both ideal sets and alternatives.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Hidegger 2013-01-17 15:31:21
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MDT set with Shell/ra V on

Dark ring with -5% or -6% MDT and can use Static earring instead of ethereal. This set allows you to cap MDT with shell, provide 12(14 with static earring) MDB, give -3% PDT + what should be -5% or -6% PDT on dark ring, offer magic damage annulment and absorption. As well as the occasional cpl mp added from ethereal earring. And still leaves hands slot open incase you cant get you dark ring with both PDT and MDT or a Dring.



 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-01-17 15:57:03
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Creecreelo said: »
For Precast, Marduk's Jubbah +1 was actually found to be 11% Fast Cast, combined with Marduk +1 hands gives an extra 3% FC. With those two pieces, Sheikh finally becomes beaten.
Unless I'm misunderstanding the last thread on the matter, song casttime and fast cast are seperate terms and multiplicative. Seeing as you're already rocking 65% song casttime before body, Sheikh would provide a greater casttime reduction(13/35) than Marduk(14/87).

Apologies if this is incorrect, I have not tested personally.
 Odin.Sawtelle
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By Odin.Sawtelle 2013-01-17 16:38:59
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Creecreelo said: »
For Precast, Marduk's Jubbah +1 was actually found to be 11% Fast Cast, combined with Marduk +1 hands gives an extra 3% FC. With those two pieces, Sheikh finally becomes beaten.
Unless I'm misunderstanding the last thread on the matter, song casttime and fast cast are seperate terms and multiplicative. Seeing as you're already rocking 65% song casttime before body, Sheikh would provide a greater casttime reduction(13/35) than Marduk(14/87).

Apologies if this is incorrect, I have not tested personally.

I'm like 85% they are multiplicative. Cali and I did some fraps testing yesterday.
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By Creecreelo 2013-01-17 17:54:57
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Creecreelo said: »
For Precast, Marduk's Jubbah +1 was actually found to be 11% Fast Cast, combined with Marduk +1 hands gives an extra 3% FC. With those two pieces, Sheikh finally becomes beaten.
Unless I'm misunderstanding the last thread on the matter, song casttime and fast cast are seperate terms and multiplicative. Seeing as you're already rocking 65% song casttime before body, Sheikh would provide a greater casttime reduction(13/35) than Marduk(14/87).

Apologies if this is incorrect, I have not tested personally.

This needs to be explored more thoroughly I believe.

When testing around with precast gear, I don't have fraps or w/e so I usually just test approximations by purposefully interrupting my casting by moving a little bit immediately after casting a general buff song. Basically, I just spent the last 40min playing around with Anhur Robe and Sheikh Manteel. This is rough testimonial, I know, but I still think it could be considered.



In this set, my casting would be interrupted usually at 37%~ with /whm.

Using Anhur Robe, my casting would be interrupted usually around 30 or 33%. Anhur Robe was pretty weird. While wearing it, I'd usually either end up getting my casting interrupted message around 30%~, but then other times it would be 33%. It never seemed to happen at 31 or 32% though...

Using Sheikh Manteel, my casting would consistently be interrupted at 29-30%.


After changing to /rdm, my casting time without a body piece was fairly consistent at 26%~.

With Anhur Robe, I had a similar issue as before when /whm. It seemed split 50/50 on ending at either 19% or 22%.

With Sheikh Manteel, the casting was consistently interrupted at 18-19%.


Idk what to take away from this since Anhur Robe results were just strange (I just don't get how it was either 30 or 33% when /whm and 19 or 22% when /rdm and then almost never in between.) However, I think in the end the difference between Anhur Robe and Sheikh Manteel was often extremely small. I would just be really curious to test Marduk's Jubbah +1 against Sheikh while actually in the game since Marduk's Jubbah +1 should have 4% more FC than Anhur.
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By Valefor.Philemon 2013-01-17 18:04:32
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Honest question here, I've always wondered: Is the casting time bar a reliable tool for determining casting speed? Or would it be better to count the number of frames?
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By Creecreelo 2013-01-17 18:10:05
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Now I'm just testing a little bit with Chelona Boots +1 (FC+5%) vs. AF2+2 Feet (Song Spellcasting -6%) and I'm seeing no difference. Edit: This is with Sheikh Manteel on full-time now.

Still /rdm. Chelona Boots +1 are consistently ending at 18-19%, while AF2+2 Feet are consistently ending at 18-19% as well.

???

Edit: With /whm, AF2+2 gave consistently 29-30%. Chelona Boots +1 gave consistently 29-30% as well. I'm just gonna be done for now...
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-01-17 18:26:34
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Logically, if they are additive you're well over 100% casttime. If they are not, Sheikh is the better piece. As a result, you cannot make a case for Marduk being an improvement on Sheikh(save your papers).
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By Quetzalcoatl.Hidegger 2013-01-17 18:41:05
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if you exceeded the cap then you'd have room to removing items like the zenrith slacks (unstorable) or aoidoss belt giving +1 inventory for other sets. so yes there is a point to making a case of whether marduk +1 beats sheikh.
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By Creecreelo 2013-01-17 23:00:38
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Logically, if they are additive you're well over 100% casttime. If they are not, Sheikh is the better piece. As a result, you cannot make a case for Marduk being an improvement on Sheikh(save your papers).

Incoming long post.

Even if they were additive, I'm not even close to exceeding 100% in the sets I was testing since I wasn't using Minstrel's Ring.

I had Song Spellcasting -42% and 8% FC in the set not including a body piece as /whm. Zenith Pants have -3% on them, which I should have included in previous post. Sorry!

With Sheikh, -55% with 8% FC as /whm and 23% FC as /rdm. -63%/-78% if additive.
With Anhur, -42% with 18% FC as /whm and 33% FC as /rdm. -60%/-75% if additive.


~~~~~~~

To expand on this testing, I headed to Abyssea to test out results that included Minstrel's and/or Atmas.

I first decided to go completely all-out in Song Spellcasting/Fast Cast to see what exactly the cap is. This would determine the % of when my spell would be "interrupted." With Deep Devourer (Song spellcasting -25%) and Merciless Matriarch (Fast Cast+10%) and /rdm (FC+15%) and my Sheikh precast set up earlier, which now included minstrel's (-80% SS, 8% FC), I knew I was WELL above the cap at Song Spellcasting -105% and 33% FC.

With all that, my song was always interrupted at 15%~.

At this point, I knew I could take away some Song Spellcasting and decided to focus more on Fast Cast to see if I could somehow exceed that 15%~ interruption.

So I switched up some gear.



Here I'm /rdm for FC+15%. Jeweled Collar with FC+3. Zenith+1 with SSC-3%.

With Deep Devourer (SSC-25%), MM (FC+10%), and Lightning Beast (FC+5%), this set left me with SSC-86% and 54% FC.

I was still always hitting that 15%~ interruption.

It seemed proposed in an earlier post that we can exceed the cap with FC or something and this seems to confirm that's definitely not possible. Correct me if I'm wrong, but... This point of 15%~ at interruption is important because it should mean that other combinations of gear that interrupt at this point are hitting the cap.



Then I switched to /whm and altered my Sheikh Precast set to include Minstrel's and removed all Fast Cast gear, leaving it with excactly Song Spellcasting -80%. No atmas.


My songs were always interrupted at 15%~.

I then changed out some SSC for FC, made sure the total was 80% and tested to see if I was still hitting the cap. No atmas were used.


Jeweled FC+3%, Zenith+1 SSC-3%

SSC -60% and FC+20%, totaling at 80%.

This set up was hitting the 15% spell interruption like the sets before, which should mean that it's hitting the cap.


...It seems these results show that Fast Cast and Song Spellcasting gear have equal weight on each other. This can be seen clearly with the last two tested sets.

Sorry for length.
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By Odin.Sawtelle 2013-01-17 23:13:48
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Did you test to see at what value you didn't hit the 15% cap? I see this part:

Creecreelo said: »
I had Song Spellcasting -42% and 8% FC in the set not including a body piece as /whm. Zenith Pants have -3% on them, which I should have included in previous post. Sorry!

With Sheikh, -55% with 8% FC as /whm and 23% FC as /rdm. -63%/-78% if additive.
With Anhur, -42% with 18% FC as /whm and 33% FC as /rdm. -60%/-75% if additive.

But not your results of actually casting it. If you didn't do that (I believe, please correct me if I'm wrong) all we know is that there apparently is a cap and that you hit it using a SSC -60% and FC+20% set.
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By Siren.Barber 2013-01-17 23:18:43
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so.....



-34% sst
-14% casting time from staff
-28 fast cast

-76% casting time? That's close enough to the cap for me to toss minstrel's ring forever. Just have to make a couple more staves. Heck I'd probably be ok with af neck for -74 to keep from lugging around latent gear. Awesome test.
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By Odin.Sawtelle 2013-01-17 23:21:24
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I ask because I did a test yesterday (and apparently accidentally edited out the numbers) that I had my brd friend fraps a song from the first click to the moment she got the song effect (we were in a very low lag area).

Her set was like 51% SSC 15% fast cast. The difference between these for additive(66% casting time reduction) vs multiplicative(59% casting time reduction) and it was decently strong support of multiplicative. I didn't use the interrupt thing though.
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By Creecreelo 2013-01-17 23:26:43
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Odin.Sawtelle said: »
Did you test to see at what value you didn't hit the 15% cap? I see this part:

Creecreelo said: »
I had Song Spellcasting -42% and 8% FC in the set not including a body piece as /whm. Zenith Pants have -3% on them, which I should have included in previous post. Sorry!

With Sheikh, -55% with 8% FC as /whm and 23% FC as /rdm. -63%/-78% if additive.
With Anhur, -42% with 18% FC as /whm and 33% FC as /rdm. -60%/-75% if additive.

But not your results of actually casting it. If you didn't do that (I believe, please correct me if I'm wrong) all we know is that there apparently is a cap and that you hit it using a SSC -60% and FC+20% set.

Those sets' results were posted in my previous post, when I was just starting to explore all of this.

To state briefly, Sheikh set /whm was interrupted at 29-30%, while Anhur set was interrupted 30-33%. Sheikh /rdm was interrupted at 18-19%, and Anhur set /rdm was interrupted at 19-22%. These sets and test results did not include Minstrel's ring or Atma. Edit: One thing that's nice about these numbers is that they're pretty consistent with the results in my latter test since I was not hitting the hard cap at the time here.

Edit2: Just to be clear as well, all tests were done in low lag areas!!
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By Creecreelo 2013-01-17 23:49:31
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I'm not sure too how Magian Nuking staves work with Fast Cast/Song Spellcasting gear.

I just know the Magian Debuff line's "Affinity: Recast time-14%" seems to work after all other reduction bonuses like Haste/FC/Song Recast- gear. If it isn't already known, it's possible that the nuke staves casting reduction may work only after Fast Cast/Song Spellcasting gear. I ain't making any ToM Nuking staves either... an easy way to test should be to get 80% FC/SSC without the staff (probably using Minstrel's), replace 14% of that gear with the staff. Cast and then move and see if you get interrupted at 15%~. If it does interrupt at 15%, then it works!! If it doesn't work with FC/SSC, then the bonus from the staff would probably be significantly small, like only 1-2% FC.
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By Odin.Sawtelle 2013-01-17 23:53:14
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What do spells interrupt at wearing no gear /rdm?

(To be clear, I'm not arguing about results of tests in terms of which is fastest, I'm sure those are 100% correct. I just want to solidify whether the traits mult or add.)

Edit: I'm also interested in the apparent casting time cap and if it applies to other jobs now.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-01-18 00:02:52
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Pretty sure that it's been tested and you can find it somewhere in Mathy Parts on BG.
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By Creecreelo 2013-01-18 00:15:34
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Ahhh I see, if I had to say right off the top my head. I would say they add along with other gear. I was curious myself if the traits themselves worked differently.

/whm naked, songs were interrupted at 74~%.
/rdm naked, songs were interrupted at 62-63%~.
Difference = 11-12%

This seems rather consistent with the tests earlier involving Sheikh/Anhur Robe tests. After changing to /rdm in that test, the songs were being interrupted about 11-12% faster than /whm.

I decided to test one more set...



If it helps, this set also hit 15%~ interruption and has 60% SSC, 5% FC from gear and 15% FC from /rdm, 80% total. So it seems JT /rdm FC works with SSC/FC from gear.
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By Odin.Sawtelle 2013-01-18 00:29:13
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Fenrir.Sylow said: »
Pretty sure that it's been tested and you can find it somewhere in Mathy Parts on BG.
Ah, cool. I'll tell my friend that is asking me about it to look for it.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-01-18 01:20:27
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I wrote a miniature app to poll the recast timer of paeon repeatedly while casting, and pull the value of the cast bar the instant the recast changes off of 0. These are the results I got:

-54% SST(Dague, AF3 head/neck/ear, Sheikh, Schellenband, Af3 belt, -4 casttime pants, af2+2 feet)
.375
.3796875
.375
.375
.375
.375
.3734375
.375
.3734375
.365625

-42% SST, -12% FC(Replaced AF3 hat with Nares and added Loquac. to other ear)

.375
.3375
.3453125
.3375
.375
.3359375
.3453125
.3734375
.34375
.365625
.3640625
.375
.3734375
.34375
.3734375
.3375
.3765625
.3765625
.34375
.3734375

It would seem that they are not multiplicative, conclusively. However, the variance in fast cast set was significantly higher(and continued as I expanded the sample due to curiosity). Is it possible that fast cast has variable potency like conserve mp..?

Oddly, running the same test with uncapped FPS resulted in casttime reaching around 75% - this means that anything frame based should be relatively unreliable.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-01-18 01:31:23
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Here's the Post from Yugl:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/104051-Cast-and-Recast?p=5043156&viewfull=1#post5043156

Conclusion was that affinity cast time is additive with Fast Cast.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-01-18 02:00:21
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After some further testing led me to believe that the fast cast cap was 75%, I checked Deep Devourer vs Minstrel's ring and was coming up with a range of .51 to .53 on the cast bar for Deep Devourer's song finishes and .55 to .57 for Minstrel's Ring's. Not hugely relevant to the topic at hand, but it would seem DD is ~30%, and that was what threw off my data. Fast cast cap does appear to be 80%.
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By Cerberus.Elistriell 2013-01-18 02:19:22
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Ok, so after reading all this fantastic information (thanks for comprising it all) I'm just wondering if anyone has a good spellcast they could share for bard.
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2013-01-18 08:00:23
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Cerberus.Elistriell said: »
Ok, so after reading all this fantastic information (thanks for comprising it all) I'm just wondering if anyone has a good spellcast they could share for bard.
My XML was written for me, and is piece milled from a strange mix of older xmls and my own custom code and is not exactly perfect nor is it self explanatory but you can try it.

I made an attempt to at least comment rules and variables to explain what they do and how to use them.

http://pastebin.com/6LpzhP43
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By Titan.Wubby 2013-01-18 14:11:33
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You might want to add crooner's cithara to the instrument list. It's the next best thing for Ballad for those of us who don't own a Gjallarhorn.
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By Bahamut.Cantontai 2013-01-18 16:00:42
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Made some updates today, far from done but I assume that will always be the case. Creelo's healing magic set tested better than the one originally posted, much thanks for allowing me to pirate it. Thanks to everyone for your suggestions in thread and to Byrth for taking the time to send me some tips. On my to-do list are updates to staff DD, song overwrites, fast cast/SST-, cure precast...maybe some other stuff if you guys/gals have suggestions.
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By Cerberus.Maxiel 2013-01-23 22:05:34
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Just tested with AF3+2 pants and want to confirm, is the -Song Recast Delay the value in actual seconds and not % like fast cast or haste? If so that means Harmony Cape and Corvax Sash beats Swith Cape + Phos Belt for the Enhancing set?
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