You Spoony Guide! - A Troubadour's Libretto

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You Spoony Guide! - A Troubadour's Libretto
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 Bahamut.Cantontai
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By Bahamut.Cantontai 2013-01-16 05:21:18
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Node 58
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 Bahamut.Cantontai
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By Bahamut.Cantontai 2013-01-16 05:21:46
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As of 3/14/13 this is a placeholder post. For a discussion of DD Bard go the the new thread.
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 Fenrir.Reece
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By Fenrir.Reece 2013-01-16 17:49:55
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Think it's great! Was tidy aswell and content wasn't all over the place ^^
I still use Minstrel's ring a lot on BRD too, so when you're in yellow you can get to 81% Songcasting reduction which is just over cap! Not sure if it's worth putting in for anyone else though
 Odin.Sawtelle
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By Odin.Sawtelle 2013-01-16 18:04:52
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Question about precast sets, how is song spell casting time counted in the equation? I've always assumed it is multiplicative with fast cast.
 Cerberus.Sephrin
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By Cerberus.Sephrin 2013-01-16 18:18:58
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Cute name for the guide. This almost makes me want to gear my bard mule to melee! Almost.
 Valefor.Philemon
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By Valefor.Philemon 2013-01-16 18:22:40
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/SCH has its uses, but /WHM is much more versatile for a supporting role. Haste, Cure IV, and Stona are important tools that shouldn't be left at home.

/RDM doesn't seem useful at all to me.

For idle you can match the Heka set in refresh with Wivre Hairpin and either Manasa Chasuble or Marduk's Jubbah +1. Also you can stick a Moonshade Earring in there as well.

You might want to mention that Soul Voice and Nitro durations can be increased with augmented relic body, legs, and feet.

On merits, I think a good argument can be made in favor of meriting Finale and/or Lullaby over Minuet, but the argument is weaker right now because a perfectly geared BRD can reach 4 second recast on those songs without the need for merits. I think you'd need macc staff, Shedir Turban, Iaso Cuffs, AF3+2 legs, and an additional -1 song spellcasting from either back or waist to cap recast (with no haste or fast cast). I'll have to go back and look at it again.

Regarding Shadow/Valkyrie Clogs, it's hard to say they beat Nares Clogs even with near perfect augments.

I think most of your gear sets are pretty on-point. Missing String Torque.

Stoneskin and -DT sets would be nice to add.
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By Mizzrym 2013-01-16 18:48:36
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I think you should go into more detail on the effect of adding +1 to a song type, or a piece of gear that adds "increases song duration"

each +1 adds 10% duration of the 'base' song duration, and all the buffing songs have base duration of 120 seconds. This means minuet +5 gives +60 seconds duration, on top of the added attack bonus. The way you word it is ambiguous and doesn't clearly define it? imo anyways. Any piece of gear that 'increases song duration' is also a 10% boost to duration.

So with 99ghorn, carwenheen99, body +2, brd neck and mard legs +1 would be

4 + 5 + 2 +1+ 1 = 130% duration boost = 156 seconds added = 2min 36 seconds added onto the original 2mins


so maximum is 4minutes 36 seconds duration for NQ songs, n/t gives 9minutes 12 seconds? I think newer players reading the guide should have intimate knowledge of how boosting duration works, very useful.


Edit: also more info on marcato and how the 50% boost is applied at the end of the calculation (for example, after all the +march is calculated).

also edited b/c i forgot brd neck 10% boost
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By Siren.Bruno 2013-01-16 18:52:20
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Valefor.Philemon said: »
/SCH has its uses, but /WHM is much more versatile for a supporting role. Haste, Cure IV, and Stona are important tools that shouldn't be left at home.

/RDM doesn't seem useful at all to me.

besides things where I'm obv. gonna need Stona(Qilin and Hall of An come to mind) and other -na's, I /RDM from time to time in VW and other large group situations where I feel like my -na's aren't gonna keep up with the immense amount of WHMs..also got Refresh to throw around..but I will agree it's on the low-end of usefulness compared to the other subs.
 Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-01-16 18:52:45
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For idle, Wiglen Gorget is at least an alternative to Twilight (and I'd say superior).
 Valefor.Philemon
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By Valefor.Philemon 2013-01-16 18:57:57
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Mizzrym said: »
So with 99ghorn, carwenheen99, body +2 and mard legs +1 would be 4 + 5 + 2 + 1 = 120% duration boost = 144 seconds added = 2min 24 seconds added onto the original 2mins so maximum is 4minutes 24 seconds duration for NQ songs, n/t gives 8minutes 48 seconds?
Don't forget the Matinee. That's another 12 seconds.

Also, to the OP, I would like to say that it's nice to have a new and cutting edge guide, so thank you for putting it together.
 Bahamut.Cantontai
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By Bahamut.Cantontai 2013-01-16 19:22:05
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I've addressed some of the things people have brought up so far (Wiglen Gorget was intended to be in idle set, not sure why I put Twilight...added the PDT and MDT sets I forgot about).

Going to address everything else after I finish doing Legion with my LS, thanks for your patience and I will get back to everyone as soon as I can. And thanks for all the nice things you had to say ^^ makes me feel a little better about how late into the night(s) I've worked on this thing.
 Siren.Bruno
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By Siren.Bruno 2013-01-16 19:36:16
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sorry I just saw this now and wanted to elaborate on it since I helped Cantontai with the debuff set a bit:
Valefor.Philemon said: »
Regarding Shadow/Valkyrie Clogs, it's hard to say they beat Nares Clogs even with near perfect augments.

They don't beat them, but they're identical assuming 1 CHR = 0.5 M.Acc, no? Nares should give 11 and Aug. Valk with +5 Singing should provide 11 as well. Of course, Nares are definitely way easier to obtain..I just prefer Valkyrie's because I like the blind hope of the very slim chance of hitting a CHR or Magic Acc random pool augment whenever I tatter some extra Hadean Abj's.

And also the sentimental value =/
 Valefor.Philemon
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By Valefor.Philemon 2013-01-16 20:02:46
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I hear that. I synthed my own clogs back in the day and I was thrilled that SE kept them relevant by adding augments. I think I was paying 100k per htatter at the time to get those augments. Nowadays I see many htatters for 10k so yeah, maybe it is worth it to try for the perfect augments. But Nares are easier to carry around and store so they definitely have that going for them.
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 Asura.Sneaker
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By Asura.Sneaker 2013-01-16 20:42:59
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Very good guide, thx!
 Bahamut.Cantontai
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By Bahamut.Cantontai 2013-01-16 22:13:25
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Fenrir.Reece said: »
Think it's great! Was tidy aswell and content wasn't all over the place ^^
I still use Minstrel's ring a lot on BRD too, so when you're in yellow you can get to 81% Songcasting reduction which is just over cap! Not sure if it's worth putting in for anyone else though

Added Minstrel's to the precast set. We initially didn't include it because I assumed most people wouldn't need to hit reduction cap (since 5/5 Night/Troub) most of the time, and even if they wanted to they probably wouldn't want to have to worry about latent. Added it so people know it exists though.

Odin.Sawtelle said: »
Question about precast sets, how is song spell casting time counted in the equation? I've always assumed it is multiplicative with fast cast.

As far as I know fast cast and song spellcasting time- are identical, but you can exceed Fast Cast cap using SST- gear. If I'm misinformed, someone let me know, my goal is to expand ALL things related to the job's mechanics.

Cerberus.Sephrin said: »
Cute name for the guide. This almost makes me want to gear my bard mule to melee! Almost.

I prefer "CHRitical hit", which was inspired by a mistype while Bruno and I were discussing Exen vs Mercy Stroke. Gear it to melee and throw it on mobs in Dyna!

Bismarck.Kelhor said: »
For idle, Wiglen Gorget is at least an alternative to Twilight (and I'd say superior).

Changed, I knew about gorget but for some reason didn't include it.

Valefor.Philemon said: »
/SCH has its uses, but /WHM is much more versatile for a supporting role. Haste, Cure IV, and Stona are important tools that shouldn't be left at home.

/RDM doesn't seem useful at all to me.

For idle you can match the Heka set in refresh with Wivre Hairpin and either Manasa Chasuble or Marduk's Jubbah +1. Also you can stick a Moonshade Earring in there as well.

You might want to mention that Soul Voice and Nitro durations can be increased with augmented relic body, legs, and feet.

On merits, I think a good argument can be made in favor of meriting Finale and/or Lullaby over Minuet, but the argument is weaker right now because a perfectly geared BRD can reach 4 second recast on those songs without the need for merits. I think you'd need macc staff, Shedir Turban, Iaso Cuffs, AF3+2 legs, and an additional -1 song spellcasting from either back or waist to cap recast (with no haste or fast cast). I'll have to go back and look at it again.

Regarding Shadow/Valkyrie Clogs, it's hard to say they beat Nares Clogs even with near perfect augments.

I think most of your gear sets are pretty on-point. Missing String Torque.

Stoneskin and -DT sets would be nice to add.

/whm might be an improvement, actually, I had forgotten about Stona. Cure IV I'm less concerned about. Will revisit the subjobs for this reason. /rdm being useless seems like hyperbole, I can see it being useless to a specific person/linkshell but I tried to write the guide keeping in mind that everyone tackles events like Legion differently.

Will be adding the augmented AF2+2 stuff (and a LOT of other gear descriptions, especially sidegrades for DD sets) in the future. As for merits, I'm willing to revisit it in the future.

Mizzrym said: »
I think you should go into more detail on the effect of adding +1 to a song type, or a piece of gear that adds "increases song duration"

each +1 adds 10% duration of the 'base' song duration, and all the buffing songs have base duration of 120 seconds. This means minuet +5 gives +60 seconds duration, on top of the added attack bonus. The way you word it is ambiguous and doesn't clearly define it? imo anyways. Any piece of gear that 'increases song duration' is also a 10% boost to duration.

So with 99ghorn, carwenheen99, body +2, brd neck and mard legs +1 would be

4 + 5 + 2 +1+ 1 = 130% duration boost = 156 seconds added = 2min 36 seconds added onto the original 2mins


so maximum is 4minutes 36 seconds duration for NQ songs, n/t gives 9minutes 12 seconds? I think newer players reading the guide should have intimate knowledge of how boosting duration works, very useful.


Edit: also more info on marcato and how the 50% boost is applied at the end of the calculation (for example, after all the +march is calculated).

also edited b/c i forgot brd neck 10% boost


All of this, yep. Nowhere near done adding mechanics information.
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By Siren.Barber 2013-01-16 22:42:36
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The +damage magian staves work on reducing song casting time on their respective elements do they not? I'm not ready to go making 4 more staves so I just use dagger but I was under the impression you could use them to get -14%
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By Odin.Calipso 2013-01-16 23:08:02
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I'm not sure if I'd say rdm sub is useless, 15% fc is very nice for single bards in Legion (or anywhere else where you're gonna be party dancing around), especially if you have Daurdabla 90-99. Damn you SE for removing locking!

Pianissimo (and Tenuto) is a 5 second recast, not 15.

Marduk hands and legs +1 (3% FC) are an acceptable sidegrade if you don't have Zenith Slacks +1 or don't have perfect augments on them (or wanna save an inventory slot).


And yes, the -spellcasting on damage magian staves works for songs.
 Odin.Sawtelle
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By Odin.Sawtelle 2013-01-16 23:21:59
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Bahamut.Cantontai said: »
Odin.Sawtelle said: »
Question about precast sets, how is song spell casting time counted in the equation? I've always assumed it is multiplicative with fast cast.

As far as I know fast cast and song spellcasting time- are identical, but you can exceed Fast Cast cap using SST- gear. If I'm misinformed, someone let me know, my goal is to expand ALL things related to the job's mechanics.
I asked Cali to cast some quick spells for me w/ fraps. March with no casting time reduction casts at right around 68% of the casting bar. She then switched to /rdm(15% fast cast) and 51% casting time reduction gear. The song finished casting at(or before) 32% of the bar.

Edit: looks decently strong that it is actually multiplicative which makes sense.
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By Sylph.Reain 2013-01-16 23:41:39
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Nice to see a bard guide. I think I would probably make the DD part of it a separate guide if I were making it since it's gonna get really long otherwise.

There's some things I don't agree with or think should be added.

Merits should be 5/5 Minuet 5/5 Madrigal, 5/5 Troubadour and 5/5 nightingale eventually. Finale and lullaby recast merits are fine to hold you over until you have enough equipment to get song recast time -18.

5/5 Troubadour has unerring song accuracy effect. This is like elemental seal for songs except it doesn't wear off after 1 cast. It is usually not necessary to sub blm for Elemental Seal. I thought it was funny this wasn't mentioned considering the guide name.

WHM is my sub of choice for haste, Cure IV, Stona and other -na spells. Maybe if you are just starting out RDM sub is useful if your song spellcasting set isn't done. I can't comment on SCH since I've never used it. I have subbed THF for TH2 as well.

March increases attack speed rather than reduces attack delay in ffxi terminology. Lowering attack delay reduces tp per hit. (see blitzer's roll). Similarly elegy reduces attack speed rather than increases attack delay. Isn't hugely important though.

Marcato does effect Elegy, Lullaby, Requiem, and Threnody I believe.
Elegy (potency, although elegy spells cap at 50% slow)
Lullaby (acccuracy I think)
Requiem (potency)
Threnody (potency)
It's probably not worth using with a debuff over a buff though. Perhaps with Ltng. Threnody for when stunning certain things.

I think I would still buff in 5/5 empyrean armor for set bonus except for when I'm using SV/Marcato or cycling parties. This is probably down to personal preference though.

For debuffs I would aim for a set that lowers recast for debuffs to 4 seconds. Something like this:


This set can be improved still.
Magian Magic Accuracy Staves (or Carnwenhan)
Hyaline Hat, Shedir Turban or Marduk Tiara+1 if you can make up -recast in other slots
Could replace AF3+2 legs with Marduk legs+1 too down to personal preference. (song recast-6 vs duration+10%, depends on song and situation)
Some proper M.acc feet too. I personally don't bother since I like to be in my movement speed feet when I finish casting.

4 second recast Horde Lullaby and Horde Lullaby II are really nice. Daurdabla instead of G.horn for Horde Lullaby and Horde Lullaby II for larger AoE.

For Voidwatch I'd recommend one of your Atmacites being Atmacite of Exhortation for Sphere: regain+2. You can stand with your melees and use Fanatics/Fools to avoid damage and back off if things get nasty. It's nice for tp ticking up when that person doesn't clear the box.

Lullaby +1 gives +10% duration to lullaby. +3 seconds duration to tier 1 lullabies and +6 seconds to tier2 lullabies.

SV doubles duration of Mazurka/Scherzo rather than potency.

Bard's relic horn, empyrean harp and mythic dagger are all really nice and unlike other jobs they all work together so it isn't a choice of which to equip. The best order to make them in my opinion is
Daurdabla 90 -> Daurdabla 99 > Gjallarhorn 95 > Gjallarhorn 99 > Carnwenhan.
There are +3 instruments for most songs meaning the 95 Gjallarhorn is only equal to those and better after doing the trial for 99. If you do make them in that order you will want to try and get the Langeleik for march+3 from Celeano to use until you have your Gjallarhorn.

When using 3 or 4 songs you need to watch out for dispel moves or melee running away and missing songs as you will have to reapply with Daurdabla.

Generally March x2 are the best songs to use. If all your melee have embrava and haste they are capped magic haste(for now) so your march won't be adding anything.

Songs don't always overlap as desired.
For example: Say you have used Troubadour March March Minuet Minuet on your DD and want to ballad yourself but your Troubadour wears off and you try to ballad x3, You will probably end up with Ballad March Minuet Minuet due to the song with lowest duration getting replaced.

Different people have different styles to playing bard so I'm not necessarily correct in everything.

I have probably missed some stuff.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Hidegger
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By Quetzalcoatl.Hidegger 2013-01-17 00:16:29
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I prefer /whm, as u don't need -nas to AoE as often as the whm, while still keeping things like reraise, haste and cure 4 and AoE barspells for those mobs that dispel. /rdm refresh seems rather pointless as other mages should be /sch or /rdm themselves and u can't have sublimation and refresh at the same time. Ballads should be sufficient for your mages, especially +5 ballads.

Theres a debuff set but not a song recast set for finale.

Augmented genbu's Kabuto is a better head piece for PDT set with 3 PDT 7 eva

There's a song precast but no cure precast.
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By Odin.Calipso 2013-01-17 00:21:05
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Sylph.Reain said: »
The best order to make them in my opinion is
Daurdabla 90 -> Daurdabla 99 > Gjallarhorn 95 > Gjallarhorn 99 > Carnwenhan.

I actually get asked this a decent amount (which is the "best" order to make instruments in?), and pretty much exactly where I stand on it.

An extra song (or two) will be more beneficial than G-Horn will be to two songs. I would prioritize Daurdabla 90(even if you have to buy trophies)-99 over G-horn.

As others have said, Augmented Relic Body, Feet, and Legs are a near must have (especially for end-game events like Legion).
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By Asura.Loire 2013-01-17 00:30:19
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small nitpick, Oneiros Harp in idle would be something to add
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 Sylph.Reain
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By Sylph.Reain 2013-01-17 00:41:57
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Quetzalcoatl.Hidegger said: »

There's a song precast but no cure precast.

cure precast without getting into hexed-1


nares cap would work too
augments on the shield and feet



Odin.Calipso said: »
Sylph.Reain said: »
The best order to make them in my opinion is
Daurdabla 90 -> Daurdabla 99 > Gjallarhorn 95 > Gjallarhorn 99 > Carnwenhan.

I actually get asked this a decent amount (which is the "best" order to make instruments in?), and pretty much exactly where I stand on it.

An extra song (or two) will be more beneficial than G-Horn will be to two songs. I would prioritize Daurdabla 90(even if you have to buy trophies)-99 over G-horn.

As others have said, Augmented Relic Body, Feet, and Legs are a near must have (especially for end-game events like Legion).

The daurdabla is better. I still have more affection for the Gjallarhorn though. It made such a mockery of nearly everything at 75 cap.
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By Odin.Calipso 2013-01-17 00:55:08
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Sylph.Reain said: »
The daurdabla is better. I still have more affection for the Gjallarhorn though. It made such a mockery of nearly everything at 75 cap.

G-horn was amazing at 75 cap :( (Not to say it's not good now).

A lot of people seem to be intimidated by 99 emps. If you have the means to 99 a relic, you have the means to 99 an emp (although we have the misfortune of needing cinders instead of drosses), and 99 daurdabla is worth every single gil you'll put into it.

Also, the magian light damage staff (Arka I) applies to cures, so that's more -casting time than the sword listed above if you happen to have it. (And doesn't hurt to make for brd if you're not capped casting time, as it will apply to Ballad, and Paeon [and a few other random songs you'll likely never cast])
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By Valefor.Philemon 2013-01-17 01:18:02
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Sylph.Reain said: »
Songs don't always overlap as desired.
For example: Say you have used Troubadour March March Minuet Minuet on your DD and want to ballad yourself but your Troubadour wears off and you try to ballad x3, You will probably end up with Ballad March Minuet Minuet due to the song with lowest duration getting replaced.
It should also be noted that a song cannot be overwritten by the same song unless less than the base duration (2 minutes) remains. Otherwise you'll keep getting "no effect" messages.
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By Sylph.Peldin 2013-01-17 01:36:51
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Quote:
If you have the means to 99 a relic, you have the means to 99 an emp
I would disagree with this, just from the standpoint that although the two may be somewhat close in terms of money (if you don't buy any colorless soul pops), the relic trials are much easier to get help with.
If you don't multi-box, you are going to need help with a LOT of plates and a LOT of souls. Other people besides yourself will have to dedicate a lot of time to you. This is a far different step than getting a few/group of people to help you go to Beaucedine and Xarcabard a couple times.

As for the OP, I would definitely mention some sidegrades in there:

Schellenband for precast hands.
Balrahn's Ring for debuffs.
Serpentes hands/boots for idle (should be an upgrade actually)

I would continue but there are LOTS of sidegrades for other sets.

I think the guide looks really good so far though. However, I don't even know why people bother to put hexed -1 gear in their guides. It doesn't help the majority of the people who read them.
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By Odin.Calipso 2013-01-17 01:50:00
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I was talking gil-wise. And as to everything else, I did the entirtey of my Daurdabla (minus maybe 10 souls I bought cause seriously- *** souls) in a duo. Not trying to be argumentative, but it's really not hard.

Just thought I'd add NQ Lentitive Hands (Paean Cuffs) are pretty damn good in themselves.
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