The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Bismarck.Ringoko
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By Bismarck.Ringoko 2021-06-24 04:07:54
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SimonSes said: »
Serjero said: »
Asura.Cambion said: »
Because of rounding in the game (xx/256), you need 26% haste, the gain of 1% from the proposed changes, still leaves you 1 short, and is therefore still a DPS loss. (Granted it's small)

Green Wyvern Cheer

Thats magic haste not gear haste.

can you confirm this?
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By SimonSes 2021-06-24 04:18:48
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Bismarck.Ringoko said: »
SimonSes said: »
Serjero said: »
Asura.Cambion said: »
Because of rounding in the game (xx/256), you need 26% haste, the gain of 1% from the proposed changes, still leaves you 1 short, and is therefore still a DPS loss. (Granted it's small)

Green Wyvern Cheer

Thats magic haste not gear haste.

can you confirm this?

It was confirmed here months ago. You can find it, I dont have time XD

EDIT: or maybe I have..
https://fr.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/50426/high-end-sets-advicesuggestionsideaslua/36/#3565217
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By Taint 2021-06-24 06:36:36
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Haste is why most add Relic legs, 100meva, 6haste, 6da.

ItemSet 366218
 Lakshmi.Avereith
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By Lakshmi.Avereith 2021-06-24 07:20:27
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What is all this haste discussion for?

That dude a few pages back already tested full sakpata's 25% when it was first released to be a true 25% fractionally and not needing to be bumped up to 26%

Edit: assuming sailfi +1 I mean
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-06-24 07:23:49
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Cause the proposed set has 8% belt to hit 100% DA and not salifi
 Lakshmi.Avereith
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By Lakshmi.Avereith 2021-06-24 07:34:32
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(|understood|) /nod
 Fenrir.Kaldaek
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By Fenrir.Kaldaek 2021-06-24 07:41:53
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Lakshmi.Avereith said: »
What is all this haste discussion for?

That dude a few pages back already tested full sakpata's 25% when it was first released to be a true 25% fractionally and not needing to be bumped up to 26%

Edit: assuming sailfi +1 I mean

what is this sorcery you speak of?
 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-06-24 07:46:08
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Asura.Cambion said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
You could use Sailfi +1 and Coiste over Ioskeha +1 and Hasty Pinion +1, which leaves you at 99% DA and down 27 ACC, but adds 2% TA, 20 STR, 20 attack, and 6 STP.
Because of rounding in the game (xx/256), you need 26% haste, the gain of 1% from the proposed changes, still leaves you 1 short, and is therefore still a DPS loss. (Granted it's small)
26% is considered the cap because 25% is considered just barely too low in most cases (usually something like 24.7%), not because 24% is actually a full percent behind. Going for the full 26% is often not worth it if you have to sacrifice notable other stats.
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By Lakshmi.Avereith 2021-06-24 07:47:02
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It was either, the odyssey forum, or the drk forum

Just the usual long recast magic haste tests showed 25% from sak/sailfi is gear haste capped without needing an extra 1% elsewhere

Easy to test if you want to check if the guy was insincere/making it up

That was to the guy asking about my last post
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-06-24 07:50:08
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The newer stuff is (usually) perfect haste values instead of the old rounding being off by .1

So 25 really means 25 and not 24.X

Or in this case... 24 means 24 and not 23.x
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 Fenrir.Kaldaek
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By Fenrir.Kaldaek 2021-06-24 07:51:21
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oh im an old school inventory saver. aurgelmir orb +1 in my ammo slot.
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By georgebush 2021-06-24 12:16:48
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The post about 5/5 Sakpata and Sailfi belt +1 capping haste is found in the following thread: "Warrior: DW/Fencer/Polearm/H2H/Ranged."

This was how he came to the conclusion:

Leviathan.Eloc said: »
Asura.Chendar said: »
Don't know if anyone has actually worked out if the 25% from 5/5 sakpata + sailfi belt is actually capped gear haste or not (?)

It is. 30ish gear haste and +8 Fast Cast, Dread Spikes: 2:09 recast
5/5 Sakpata and Sailfi Belt: 2:09 Recast
5/5 Sakpata and Ioskeha +1: 2:11 recast

EDIT: Using the Nyame 5/5 and Goading Belt is also capped gear haste, if anyone wanted to know that one too.


EDIT: Fixed the link to take you to the actual post not just the thread.
 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2021-06-24 12:42:03
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Lakshmi.Avereith said: »
It was either, the odyssey forum, or the drk forum

Just the usual long recast magic haste tests showed 25% from sak/sailfi is gear haste capped without needing an extra 1% elsewhere

Before I open my mouth, are any smart people familiar with GearInfo on the backend? It was always my understanding that it was reading haste values from the server side, not the client side. But the deeper I dig, that might not be entirely accurate? Otherwise brd and cor + gear wouldn't need it's own handling. But pulling from the server side is how it differentiates haste1 and haste2, geo haste, so... I don't know anymore.

Anywho the 25% from Sak/Sailfi only registers as 252 haste.
All Sakpata pieces register as exactly even amounts, for a total of 160 haste. Sailfi+1 registers as 92 haste. 252/256 = Uncapped.
Ioskeha+1 registers as 81 haste for 241/256.

To be clear - I have no clue if these are read server side, or this is all calculated by human inputs/assumptions into Gearinfo and therefor can be flawed.

A DRK manually testing a long spell at 252 vs 256 seems like it would be hard to decipher/measure, but there's no link to research and I didn't see it in the most recent 6 pages, so I don't know the methodology, accuracy, or margin of error.

For now, the tools I have at my disposal are DPS sheets and gearinfo, both of which support that Full Sakpata and Sailfi gain DPS by adding 1% more haste.

You can do this without any variance, simply by manually altering the haste value of Sailfi from it's listed 91 in the DPS sheet, by a value of one, until it caps your DPS, which occurs at 96. (Which is exactly +4 from the GearInfo listed 252, resulting in 256) and no DPS will be gained by adding any more haste beyond that point.

NOTED DISCREPANCY
Sailfi +1 is listed as 91 haste in the spreadsheet
Sailfi +1 is listed as 92 haste in gearinfo.
Both support the theory that Full Sakpata and Sailfi+1 is NOT hitting the required 256 haste to cap.
Whether that means we can actually gain DPS by altering a real-world item for 4/256 haste, is a different discussion.

Edit: Just saw the quoted test. Leaves much to be desired, but hopefully someone can chime in. Would 252 vs 256 even register as a full second on the recast? Does the 2:09 account for fractions of a second?

My math doesn't add up, I'm sure someone will correct me:
Dread Spikes Recast is 3:00
256 haste would be .744
3:00*.744 = 133.92 (2:13.92)
252 haste would be .748
3:00*.748 = 134.64 (2:14.64)
We're talking about .7 seconds. I'm not convinced his test is accurate enough to make the claim he did.
But I'm probably wrong on how recast is calculated because he's getting 2:09 somehow?
 Asura.Failaras
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By Asura.Failaras 2021-06-24 14:01:18
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Quote:
WELL LOOK WHO IT IS! Sup Fail!
I didn't look at page 1, but the answer is two fold.
1: Sakpata is obtainable within 3 days of returning, don't let Odyssey intimidate you. Sneak through floors A and B and C in 15 minutes just to get the clears. (Technically you could Farm Shaeol C with a group, but if gear is a concern this is the easy way) then, join a Lvl 0 run of the Sakpata NM just for the clear. Buy the gear, and you're good to go.
2: Ambuscade gear Flamma and Sulv...something. And Tatenashi gear (from Unity NMs) which are easy to farm with most jobs. Relic and AF gear for augmenting Berserk/Warcy, and the Legs/Feet depending on your access. Full gearing War to a top tier DD, can be done in 1-2 weeks IMO, and I just did it.
Hit me up if you're in game and remember me.
Hey! We played in the 75 cap days right? My memory is pretty awful to be honest, lol. Yeah I know Saktpata would be super easy to merc but I still feel pretty sketchy about all this merc business and am trying to (slowly) work towards it myself. Although looking at other decent options like Tatenashi augmented, Odin gear, AF+3, I guess it would take just as long to get all of that just to replace.
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By Malaketth 2021-06-24 14:14:38
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Asura.Cambion said: »

But I'm probably wrong on how recast is calculated because he's getting 2:09 somehow?


The helm has 8% fast cast which reduces recast by 4% which is why he notes it in his control results that he added it in.
 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2021-06-24 14:42:59
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Malaketth said: »
The helm has 8% fast cast which reduces recast by 4% which is why he notes it in his control results that he added it in.

New Recast = floor( [1-Fast Cast] * ( [1-Haste] * Recast ) )

I hope I'm doing this right, it says FC in the calculation and then multiple by the floor, but I think I just simplified by removing floor and FC/2 at the start?

8% FC = 4% recast (?)

(1-.04) * ([1-.252] * 180)
(.96) * ([.748]*(180)
.96 * 134.64
=129.2544
2:09.2544
Sakapata + Sailfi (Assuming 252 is accurate)

vs

(1-.04) * ([1-.256] * 180)
(.96) * ([.744]*(180)
.96 * 133.92
=128.56
2:08.5632
**Actually Capped Haste

So, we're talking about .6912 seconds. Both of these would result in a timer of 2:09 in game I assume? I'm not sure how they measured or checked their recast, but if it's just in game recast truncated to the second, then I stand by my statement, his test was not accurate enough to make the claim he did.

Based on the tools available to me, I don't believe Sakpata+Sailfi+1 is haste capped.
 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2021-06-24 15:15:24
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Near as I can tell, gearinfo doesn't pull anything from the server to get real haste values. It just parses the description text for the item for the haste value and then just does a mathematical calculation on it math.floor(value / 100 * 1024). It is definitely not getting real values from the server. I'm not even sure that is possible.

I can't speak to your recast results or anything, but I just wanted to clear up that gearinfo is not getting data from the server.

Edit: what people are getting at is that newer equipment don't necessarily follow that rough calculation any more. A lot of newer gear is providing 1-2 more haste over 1024 than 75 era gear and a lot of older haste gear. so you may be getting the 4/1024 you think you're missing due to the haste values on sakpata/sailfi not actually being what that formula above is giving you. 2% in the calc for instance would always give 20/1024 haste, but it might be giving you 21/1024
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 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2021-06-24 15:44:40
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Near as I can tell, gearinfo doesn't pull anything from the server to get real haste values. It just parses the description text for the item for the haste value and then just does a mathematical calculation on it math.floor(value / 100 * 1024). It is definitely not getting real values from the server. I'm not even sure that is possible.

If 9% Sailfi+1 results in:
9/100 * 1024 = 92.16 (Checks out)

Then the 4% on Sakpata head should result in:
4/100 * 1024 = 40.96 (GearInfo reads 40)

So if we assume GearInfo truncates without rounding, we also have to assume it does it for each piece individually, because the full Sakpata set would be 163.84, but GearInfo reads exactly 160. Meaning it truncated all 5 pieces, and we're missing exactly 4% haste in the set in the GearInfo reading?

If Sakpata was truly 163.84 and Sailfi 92.16 we would have a total of exactly 256 haste, for legitimate cap.

Or as someone mentioned above, new gear is calculated exactly at the 40.00 mark, in which case GearInfo is accurate, and we are NOT haste capped, because we legitimately are at 252/256?

I don't know.
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2021-06-24 15:53:36
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Gearinfo specifically does a floor, so 40.96 will always display as 40 in gearinfo. It's likely that it's actually 41. Which is what the guy was saying above. One of two things is happening with newer equipment.

1. The floor has been changed to a round, in which case it will round up for values over .5 instead of flooring.
2. It doesn't floor or round in which case haste values represent their full amount. aka, 2% haste is 20.48, 4% is 40.96.

What the person above said, that you've misinterpreted as flooring to the nearest 10 (aka 40 for 4%) is that the gear that has been released for the last few years has not given haste values in line with the calculation used. Full gear sets now give roughly in aggregate the amount of haste that is listed on the gear. Sakpata's gear in aggregate gives roughly 16% haste or 163 or 164 total haste. However that breaks down into the individual pieces is unknown.
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-06-24 18:24:44
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I'm using Dread Spikes with Hasso up, which gives it a 270 second recast. Visible recast rounds down, so if you have, say, a 205.3 second recast, the number that will be visible first will be 205.


Dread Spikes with Hasso, with 10% from Sakpata Body/Hands/Legs: 243 seconds

102/1024 Haste = 243.1055 seconds
103/1024 Haste = 242.8418 seconds

This means that those three pieces combined give 102/1024 or less, meaning that it's impossible for the body to give 21 and the hands/legs to also give 41/1024 each, and also that the hands/legs cannot both give more than 41/1024 even if the body only gives 20/1024.


Dread Spikes with Hasso, with 6% haste from Sakpata Body/Hands: 253 seconds

60/1024 = 254.1797 seconds
61/1024 = 253.9160 seconds

This means that these two pieces combined give at least 61/1024, so either 4% gives 41/1024 and 2% gives 20/1024, or 4% gives 401/1024 and 2% gives 21/1024.


Dread Spikes with Hasso, with 4% haste and 8% fast cast from Sakpata Helm: 248 seconds

If Fast Cast has very high precision:

40/1024 = 249.0750 seconds
41/1024 = 248.8219 seconds

If Fast Cast is based on 1024ths, then 4% reduction is 40.96/1024, which either rounds up to 41 or down to 40.

If Fast Cast is based on 1024ths and 4% rounds up to 41/1024:

40/1024 = 249.0649
41/1024 = 248.8118

If Fast Cast is based on 1024ths and 4% rounds down to 40/1024:

41/1024 = 249.0649
42/1024 = 248.8115

This means Sakpata's Helm gives at least 41/1024.

If you assume that all of the Sakpata pieces that list equal amounts have equal values, this means that:

Sakpata Helm/Hands/Legs: 41/1024
Sakpata Body/Feet: 20/1024

5/5 Sakpata gives 163/1024 = 15.918% Haste


Dread Spikes with Hasso, with 102/1024 haste from Sakpata Body/Hands/Legs and 9% haste from Sailfi +1: 218 seconds

Sailfi +1 with 91/1024 Haste: 219.1113 seconds
Sailfi +1 with 92/1024 Haste: 218.8477 seconds

Sailfi +1 gives at least 92/1024 Haste.


Dread Spikes with Hasso, with 82/1024 haste from Sakpata Hands/Legs and 9% haste from Sailfi +1: 224 seconds

Sailfi +1 with 92/1024 Haste: 224.1211 seconds
Sailfi +1 with 93/1024 Haste: 223.8574 seconds

Sailfi +1 gives less than 93/1024 Haste.

Sailfi +1 gives 92/1024 = 8.984% Haste.


5/5 Sakpata & Sailfi +1 gives 255/1024 = 24.90% Haste
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By SimonSes 2021-06-25 00:49:25
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Thx Geriond!

So true 25% haste in gear would be 0.47% faster if you add magic haste cap and hasso (78.75% haste instead of 78.65% haste)
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2021-06-25 15:56:25
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Asura.Cambion said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
I didn't realize this was a question of "what's the best bang for your buck", I thought it was "what's best".
...
Petrov/Moonlight/Chirich are all practically sidegrades from an offensive POV.

Lol? I said, and now you've admitted, from an offensive POV they are the exact same. So "what's best" is the free one.

Way to take things out of context. You neglected to quote my next sentence that said that the rings themselves were about the same level of offense, but the one that also adds defensive perks will increase OVERALL DPS by freeing up a different slot to focus on pure offense with no need to consider capping DT.

I get that you're dead set on saying PETROV IS FREE. I still think it's kind of a dumb choice because it's worse for all of: (a) the overall set's DPS, (b) DT-/HP, and (c) enmity. Petrov will do if you're on a budget; but aside from cost it is the worst of the three options discussed (Moonlight, Chirich +1, Petrov).

Quote:
I'm proposing that full Sakpata is too defensive and we can make some sacrifices to gain more DPS.

I don't think most people here are agreeing that Sakpata is "too defensive". Any offensive gains from alternatives are fairly minor at best (and arguably could be worse in practice than a spreadsheet would show, simply due to more unresisted enfeebles slowing down your DPS). When the entire point is a hybrid set that considers defense/DT/Meva, why wouldn't you consider those things as significant advantages in a set that still maintains very near BiS offense?

You're overthinking things, IMO. I know that saying 5/5 Sakpata may feel a little... boring or overly simplistic? But people aren't suggesting it without reason.

Quote:
Less important, but worth noting; the set you're proposing isn't just 20M for Moonlight, it's another 12M for Seething Aug, another 60M for War Beads+2, 9M for 3 additional pieces of Sakpata... we're talking ~100M investment to do less damage than an Ambu head and free DT accessories.

Seething aug probably only needs like... rank 3? rank 4? to get haste on the augment and clearly beat your suggested Hasty Pinion +1. Fraction of the cost of a full R15 augment (which is still useful, but if you're on that much of a budget...)

War +2 neck I didn't actually talk about, but if you don't already have one the price has dropped to ~30M on my server and Asura. Can also easily get away with +1 neck for well under 10mil (it's only ~2M on your server). That slot adds so much offense that I can't really see it as a worthwhile swap to a defensive-only piece when it's entirely unnecessary since you can easily cap DT elsewhere with minimal offensive sacrifice.
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-06-25 16:13:06
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Seething needs R11 to get the first percentage of haste.
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2021-06-25 23:33:23
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Oh wow, didn't realize it was that high, thanks for the confirmation. So 1-5% are at ranks 11-15 I guess.

Mkay, I suppose that does mean Seething +1 has a bit more cost involved to be useful as a haste TP option. Do with that info what you will!
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By marlinselfish 2021-06-27 09:27:20
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Can someone please put up the current bis upheaval set.
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By Valefor.Maurauc 2021-06-27 13:14:28
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Asura.Geriond said: »
Seething needs R11 to get the first percentage of haste.
Mine's rank 8, and has 2% haste, so I don't think it scales like that.
(STR+6, Haste+2 @ Rank 8)
 
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 Asura.Failaras
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By Asura.Failaras 2021-06-28 12:57:52
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What priority should someone upgrade their AF in generally? Or even what AF are people using these days? Seems the body is good for Savage Blade, is it better than Sakpata for Upheaval? Are the Feet/Legs really worth talking about for TP anymore?
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-06-28 13:07:27
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It depends on what you have. The legs and feet are really good, but 70 cards can be a lot for a newer warrior. Sakpata legs and feet fill multiple roles, and if yours is augmented, you won't even miss the AF. The body is still useful for berserk duration, and a couple sets. Personally, I would use omen cards here before the legs/feet but that's me. I didn't upgrade my mask beyond +2 and I never carry it, and the hands are practically worthless. The only piece I still take out of porter is the body, and it's mainly for berserk (Nyame or Sakpata is just fine for most sets, has a ton of defensive stuff I prefer over straight damage).

Depending on your options, you might just skip artifact upgrades altogether. But I still think the body is the most useful piece at this point
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