The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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2010-09-08
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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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 Asura.Auburn
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By Asura.Auburn 2018-03-15 16:18:56
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
The big thing where you can't get away with not making a good Herc piece is TP boots (but thankfully, those also tend to be BiS gear for all of the other melee jobs on the set). Otherwise, we're mainly talking about WSD pieces for Ten (and Metsu, for Kikoku users)... which do have BiS applications, but it's the kind of thing you can probably improve over time and use alternatives and still perform just fine. Lacking a top end Ten set might also influence your choice of WS - i.e., just use more Blade: Shun, and (blasphemy!) maybe look more closely at Hi for Darkness SC purposes if your Hi set is considerably better than your Ten WS set.

I have a Herc boot with +16acc/+25att/TA+4% which I'm fairly content with for the current moment. I have an AG Kannagi/Kikoku, but it seems like I'm probably going to lean more towards building up Metsu than Hi right now.

Thanks for the info! There's a lot for me to look into with everything that's been added.

Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
Bahamut.Alexcennah said: »
According to the guide, it was last updated 2 months ago. What means they are pretty much up to date, since the only missing items would be Reforged Relic hands/legs/body +2/+3.


I even tried to make the date flag the first friggin' thing on the thread. lol

Even so, 2 months could be a long time and I have no idea what had been added since then.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-03-15 18:10:40
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Asura.Auburn said: »
I have a Herc boot with +16acc/+25att/TA+4% which I'm fairly content with for the current moment. I have an AG Kannagi/Kikoku, but it seems like I'm probably going to lean more towards building up Metsu than Hi right now.

Yeah, focusing on Metsu and Shun will do you well for Kikoku. Ten is a little less of a priority for your weapons and more of a big deal for Heishi (thanks to the TP bonus on a WS that scales VERY well with more TP). Still, Ten can be a nice SC option over Hi for Kikoku in particular. In any case, for Metsu you may still want some WSD Herc pieces which can do double duty for Ten. Particularly, DEX/WSD pieces which might not be *perfect* for Ten (where STR/WSD is often the ideal piece) are still excellent for Ten with its STR30%/DEX30% mods, and no worse than a close 2nd place (but if uncapped acc is an issue might even win)

As for Hi... the nice thing about more modern Hi sets (which are far better than what was available before when the WS started to become a real liability) is that they are fairly easy to put together since they use mostly Ambuscade pieces, one AF+3, and other accessories that you likely already have or want for a multitude of jobs. As someone with a Kannagi, when you have the time it's certainly worth it to put together a decent Hi set. For my personal use of NIN, I find that my Kannagi and Hi spam actually does outperform my Kikoku (with mostly Metsu/Shun) a good bit of the time. Does depend on situations; if I can take advantage of the attack from Kikoku and relic AM, or if I need to use more Metsu/Shun/Ten for non-darkness SCs - I end up choosing Kikoku.

One day I'll finish off my current (not katana) Aeonic and get my hands on Heishi. I know, I'm sloooow LOL...

Asura.Auburn said: »
Even so, 2 months could be a long time and I have no idea what had been added since then.

And to be fair, the WS sets also list dates that go as far back as March 2017, so those are a bit older. Still not too many changes in the last year though, aside from Hi as I mentioned already.
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By Phoenix.Gerrott 2018-03-16 01:47:59
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I was intrigued by the SSs about Blade: Chi and decided to play around on Apex Jagils the other night. Super powerful but the horrendous SC properties sucks so bad... With just Fury/Frailty was hitting up to 70k sometimes, as low as 30k. Brought another geo out to have even more fun with Fury/Frailty Acu/Malaise.. Max tp hit a couple 99,999, and 1k still hit up to 85k. Makes me wish I was a sam to abuse Jinpu > Jinpu > Jinpuuuu.

Didn't bother min/maxing just threw this set together with random Rng Herc pieces.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2018-03-16 02:30:51
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You could always just throw on a Beryllium Tachi and go Tachi: Jinpu something if you wanted.
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By Phoenix.Gerrott 2018-03-16 10:14:49
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Well, I could but then I lose our TP Bonus/ STP and overall incredible TP gain of katanas. I was just shocked that Chi was so much stronger than Ten/Shun/Hi on a consistent basis with just melee buffs, but assuming being a partial magic ws the damage could vary drastically depending on Mob. Just a bummer that it chains with 0 popular WS from other jobs as well, so even in a spam situation not helping contribute random SC at all.
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2018-03-16 10:43:11
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There is also To and Teki, although they do less damage they are still hybrid.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-16 10:48:00
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Phoenix.Gerrott said: »
Well, I could but then I lose our TP Bonus/ STP and overall incredible TP gain of katanas. I was just shocked that Chi was so much stronger than Ten/Shun/Hi on a consistent basis with just melee buffs, but assuming being a partial magic ws the damage could vary drastically depending on Mob. Just a bummer that it chains with 0 popular WS from other jobs as well, so even in a spam situation not helping contribute random SC at all.

I have not had the opportunity to test Chi in a good buffed setting vs a monster it would be strong against. Overall, the weaponskill is very strong. However, as you noted, the skillchain properties are absolutely horrendous. If it chained like itself in the same manner Jinpu does, it would be broken.

Also, it is subject to resists and misses. And a lot of monsters flat out resist magical damage or magical components in some way. i.e. Omen Bosses won't take any real damage from Chi. I was hitting Kin/Gin for less than 10k with it. Neither will Quetz, or even many T1 Reis monsters. It's good for niche stuff (like hitting 30k WSD in one shot on NIN without SC), Sinister Reign bosses, or just seeing those flashy numbers and impressing people on NIN occasionally. I had a few people who I partied with comment they had no idea Chi was as powerful as it is.

Another silver lining is the game registers Blade:Chi as a Physical weaponskill (noted in Omen objectives). The other practical use of this (I have not tested this personally) would be for an NM like Glazemane, wherein you would not want to perform any skillchain or magical "damage" to him, so a WS like Chi might be perfect if it doesn't cause him to use Riddle. Might be worth testing, since NIN is really good at that fight (even solo), but suffers from having to opt for a poor WS choice to avoid skillchaining (with other ws users). Also, Glazemane is Earth based, so perhaps Blade:To would do better than Chi on him if it doesn;t cause him to rage.

The biggest problem I've seen is that, where SAM gets WSD gear in large abundance, NIN has to work much harder for it. Founders gear is also a nice perk for SAM using Jinpu. NIN is stuck augmenting Herculean which is not always the best, so YMMV.

I think overall, Chi/To are fun "tricks" that NIN can use; another tool in the toolbox, so to speak. Which is pretty much all NIN is useful for in many settings. Tricks and Tools, niche scenario dependent.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-03-16 18:07:09
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Glazemane

NIN is really good at that fight (even solo), but suffers from having to opt for a poor WS choice to avoid skillchaining (with other ws users).

Slight tangent here for Glazemane and similar situations (also works nicely on Maju)...
1) Mainhand something that isn't Heishi
2) Spam Shun
3) Victory, without having to use a poor WS (or buff for magical WS)

If using some DDs besides NINs, adjust WS as needed to avoid SCs, but there tend to be decent options on other weapons that don't SC with Shun.

Still, not a bad idea to have Chi ready for this kind of thing too! 30k WS Omen objective with nukey GEO bubbles is a pretty good suggestion as well.
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2018-03-17 09:53:07
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You can also mainhand Heishi and spam Ten.
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By Arew 2018-03-30 03:01:34
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Quote:
I think overall, Chi/To are fun "tricks" that NIN can use; another tool in the toolbox, so to speak. Which is pretty much all NIN is useful for in many settings. Tricks and Tools, niche scenario dependent.

God how I wish this weren't so *** true.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-30 09:14:41
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You really have to love playing the job to actually feel like you're getting any value playing it. I just invested some gil (and likely a whole lot more) into some Su gear, just because I do like the challenge of marginally improving my output.

It's kind of like tuning up a Honda Civic, though. At the end of the day, no matter how many improvements you put into the project, it's still a civic. You could just go out and buy a lexus and it be a better product out of the box, but there's something more fulfilling about fine tuning the job that's, on average, far weaker than others, than automatically advancing to the top of the class just because you're on [JOB] by default. Don't try to ever convince anybody otherwise.
 Asura.Auburn
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By Asura.Auburn 2018-04-03 11:49:02
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What are the optimal offhands nowadays? I suppose I'm interested in what pairs well with Kikoku, Kannagi, and Heishi.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-04-03 11:53:30
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Ah, NIN offhands. Here's my take:

Kanaria: This is an excellent offhand weapon for any mainhand, assuming decent augments. In general, shoot for TA+3 (or at least TA+2), attribute (DEX is ideal, but STR isn't bad), Acc/Atk, whatever DMG you can get (DMG is way more vital for non-RMEA nin mainhanding a Kanaria, but it's not totally irrelevant for offhands either). I tend to find a good Kanaria works as the best typical offhand for Kikoku, non-RMEA, sometimes Heishi (really depends on buffs/target), Nagi (if anyone ever used one). Usually the 2nd best offhand for Kannagi.

Ochu Ochu is indeed a solid option, especially for Heishi mainhand users. Blade: Ten getting STR/DEX+22 (with perfect Ochu augs) is pretty notable. Ten tends to shine with strong buffs and Heishi TP bonus, so Ochu's advantages are less pronounced for non-Aeonic mainhands. I don't tend to find Ochu beating a good Kanaria very often for stuff that isn't Heishi (though it's still at least GOOD for a Kikoku or Kanaria mainhand, and can be close and wouldn't be totally shocking to see scenarios where it could win). Still, even for Heishi, a well augmented Kanaria can beat Ochu a good bit of the time.

Ochu also has the niche of being by far the best offhand for MB nukes, so if you ever find yourself in that situation (not completely unreasonable, with CP parties being the best example), I'd prob go with even an imperfectly augmented Ochu as offhand.

Taka: Although it's not a bad offhand for any mainhand katana, I really view it as only the best choice for Kannagi mainhands. That's down to two specific aspects of Kannagi: (1) the large amount of AGI helps Blade: Hi damage (and you'd prob only be spamming Hi with Kannagi, or else generally better off with Shun/Ten/Metsu if not using Kannagi), and (2) low delay for more frequent mainhand Empy AM3 (Occ. deal triple dmg) hits with Kannagi. I would't really recommend it for any other mainhand though, since a moderately well augmented Kanaria or Ochu should win for those.

Shigi: Shigi still retains a niche for when you might need MEGA accuracy. Otherwise, it will definitely fall behind for DPS. Also has a very specific niche for the ninjutsu recast reduction, for situations where you might willingly gimp your DPS a bit in exchange for Migawari recast, in situations where a mob frequently uses a move that wipes Migawari. For example, Glazemane UNM fight, maybe Volatile Cluster if not stunning it.

Kujaku+1: As discussed a bit previously, it's never really that competitive for DPS. However, it does have a niche if you care primarily about TP generation and self-SCs, at the expense of your overall damage (i.e., you're there to open SCs for magic bursting mages... edit: or even just to burst on SCs but still get TP back quickly enough to WS when your SC partner is ready, after having a lag in TP from your own casting). It's a really fun toy, but as a former owner, I never found many great places for it outside of CP parties with mage backlines and messing around.

Achiuchipaku: I see this more as a stepping stone. It's not awful, but I never see it beating the above options for BiS choice. To toss out one comparison, Kanaria even before considering augments has similar effective acc (when considering the combined skill & base acc+15), same STP, better Racc for Daken, FAR better damage. And that's before augments, which are not that hard to get something hugely beneficial on Kanaria. The lower delay and DA+4% on Achiu doesn't outweigh Kanaria's benefits (or the benefits of another offhand for the reasons described for them).

Shuhansadamune: Super niche use case, but the Enmity+10 (and to a far lesser extent the Eva+22/FC+5%/PDT-3%) can be a viable choice for very specific tanking situations. This is only for cases where you care more about enmity than damage, as you'll definitely suffer a DPS loss. Note that this would really just be for ilevel content with no level correction (i.e. "new" enmity mechanics). For zones/content using the old enmity mechanics, doing more damage will be a better way to hold hate anyway, so gearing for better DPS is the way to go. This assumes you don't have the option of offhanding a Nagi, which would be even better for hate - but that's sort of an insane proposition for almost everyone playing NIN.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-04-03 11:55:49
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Personally, I'm having fun with Kujaku+1 toy, since I often find myself in groups outside of main buffs anyways. Usually Kanaria/Ochu when I need to punch some damage, or Shigi when im at Omen and hurting for acc.
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By Boshi 2018-04-03 12:32:53
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Could also use blurred knife +1 in that situation.
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By mhomho 2018-04-03 12:43:04
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Asura.Auburn said: »
What are the optimal offhands nowadays? I suppose I'm interested in what pairs well with Kikoku, Kannagi, and Heishi.

I don't know about optimal, but my current goal is to play a Nagi mainhand with either Kannagi or Heishi offhand. I just want to hold hate and not die ;- ; Maybe land some debuffs, ya know?
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-04-03 12:50:35
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The damage is lower, though i'm sure it won't matter much.

I was considering going the Raetic Kris +1 route, but didn't feel like dropping so much money on something nobody else here has spoken about or tested. And Ninja has so little MP, I'm not sure there's a scenario where they'd be able to maintain refresh, outside of probably escha with a trust or whatever. Even then, wouldn't be worth the price tag idt.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-04-03 13:47:50
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mhomho said: »
Asura.Auburn said: »
What are the optimal offhands nowadays? I suppose I'm interested in what pairs well with Kikoku, Kannagi, and Heishi.

I don't know about optimal, but my current goal is to play a Nagi mainhand with either Kannagi or Heishi offhand. I just want to hold hate and not die ;- ; Maybe land some debuffs, ya know?

No NIN RMEA are ever worth using offhand. The only one with even a possible - and very, very niche - use would be Nagi, IF the Enm+40 applies when offhanded (I'm unlclear as to whether that's one of the "special" mythic stats that don't apply when offhanded).

If you're going purely for tanking/defense, Shuhansadamune is a good offhand. Your damage will plummet though, and if for whatever reason you're doing any content that uses the old/non-ilevel enmity mechanics you'll probably be better served keeping hate via damage.

Realistically, if you have a Kannagi or Heishi, I'd imagine that in most situations it's better to mainhand either of those than to use the Nagi at all. Nagi only if you are almost solely focused on maintaining hate, but even then I wouldn't be shocked if there is minimal difference in your ability to keep hate while using a much better offensive mainhand and NIN's other tools - and the mob dies faster.
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By Siren.Kyte 2018-04-03 14:33:01
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For more "traditional" tanking (i.e using spells/JAs for hate) versus magic damage heavy enemies, x2 Mijins for +40 meva/+108 eva/+8 enmity isn't bad either.
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By mhomho 2018-04-03 14:40:49
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lol Capu-chan~ just wait 'til you see me stylin'
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-04-03 15:07:12
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Hahaha can't wait. I have pretty low opinions of Nagi in general, but I'm almost ready to pull the trigger on turning the Nyzul weapon in just because ALL THE KATANAS.
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By Shiva.Eightball 2018-04-12 21:56:06
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i'm not finding the answer to this anywhere, not a ton of info on Daken, does daken count towards 8 hit/round cap or is it its own thing?
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-04-13 02:25:07
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It's almost definitely part of the 8 hit/round cap, since AFAIK there is no known type of additional attack in FFXI that isn't subject to 8 hit/round. However, I'm not aware of anyone actually having established it specifically for Daken with testing. Easiest way to do it would be for someone with a K-club to see if you ever get an 8-hit proc followed by Daken (in particular, trying to force Daken after an 8-hit via Sange for best chance to see it happen).

Regarding Sange priority, the most reasonable assumption (which I've never seen seriously challenged) is that Sange makes Daken a 100% proc rate, but the Daken check comes after the main/offhand TP round so the game would never make that check in the first place if you got 8-hits from main/offhand weapons.

As a practical matter? The relevance is very low, since (excluding K-Club) you'd need a quadruple attack proc on main and offhand to ever have 8 hits before Daken. Supposing a typical QA+2% TP set (Windbuffet+1), 2% mainhand * 2% offhand is a 0.04% (4/10,000) chance of QA proc on both hands... and that would be reduced even further since acc cap is never 100%, and you THEN would have needed Daken to pass proc and racc checks to actually have a "lost" Daken. Even if you increased QA rate through stuff like an augmented Kanaria and/or Herc Gear, the chance of it having a significant impact on DPS is miniscule. It's pretty understandable why nobody has bothered to test.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-04-13 08:19:25
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accuracy has nothing to do with the hit per round cap, since you’re still swinging each round regardless.
[+]
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-04-13 10:16:07
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There's an easier way to test this. Two ways, actually

1.
Remove warrior sub.
Use Mikage with capped shadows. Can do it vs a rock in Assault that won't attack back and clean your shadows.
De-equip a shuriken and watch for specifically 8 hits. You can use Battlemod to make this easier.
Equip a a shuriken
activate sange.
Check for 9 hits in an attack round.

2.
Remove warrior sub
Use an augmented Izuna in both the main and offhand (qa+2 in each, for qa+4 total)
Use capped dampener's (qa+3)
windbuffet +1 (qa+2)
remove all other MA gear, so that only QA is possible.

You have a 9% chance of QA. You can activate daken and see if you ever land (4)(4) + RA hit in an attack round. You'll need to be extremely lucky to QA in both main and offhand, but its possible.

If you never land 9, you know Daken is subject to the 8-hit cap. What's interesting, though, is that Daken is not a melee hit, its definitely a ranged attack. So it would be interesting to test if this actually bypasses the cap, which I would totally be thrilled if it would. With the way SE codes this game, I would not be surprised if they somehow tied throwing a shuriken to the melee swing cap. I'm not sure how they would do that, though, since the shuriken comes at the very end of the attack, and sange forces shuriken. Seems unlikely.

Honestly, what really would this change? The only Daken pieces actually are in slots where you would want TA anyways (body, hands). I have looked at making a daken set when I cap the job, but you lose 8 Triple Attack, 7 STP. I'm not sure it's actually worth that, unless that one extra attack on Daken is more frequent than 8 TA, which I highly doubt.
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-04-13 11:17:34
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I’m willing to bet it operates similar/congruent to the Ol’ Virtue stones or Raetic where it adds an additional hit after the attack round. Testing required to prove it. Grab a KClub and see if you ever attack 9 times, like you said.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-04-13 11:27:37
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
accuracy has nothing to do with the hit per round cap, since you’re still swinging each round regardless.

Thanks for that correction. Points still remain that:
1) even if Daken *could* have had a proc after 8 main/offhand attacks, Daken has its own checks for (a) proc rate (which is increased to 100% under the effect of Sange, and (b) Racc. So, to some extent that further decreases the chances of a Daken throw that is "lost" due to already hitting 8 attacks/round.

Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
There's an easier way to test this. Two ways, actually

Oh yeah, Mikage. Good call, forgot all about that. Kclub still sounds WAY easier than your second method though, 8 hit rate on that is a lot higher than praying for QA proc on main and offhand.

Anyway, I'm still willing to bet Daken works exactly like Kick Attacks and is behind main/offhand in priority when checking for 8 attack per round maximum. If anyone actually does testing, would love to be proven wrong or confirmed correct. Either way, there's really no practical application in current FFXI - we'd have to have way higher QA rate to make it a meaningful consideration.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-04-13 12:08:18
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it doesn’t decrease it at all. it’s srill .02^2 x 100 = .04% chance it will happen. accuracy has nothing to do with it
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-04-13 12:15:49
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Just tested. Daken is subject to the 8 hit cap.

Used Mikage + Sange. With sange, I should have a 100% shuriken rate. On rounds where my normal attacks reached 8, there was no additional Ranged attack
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-04-13 12:21:59
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